Honestly? I still love them. They keep surprising me whenever I get new music. The imaging (accuracy and depth) is superb and the sound in my room with my electronics is very well balanced, no need for more bass or top end.
On a few tracks I notice a bit of mid-range forwardness, a kind of boxy sound to voice and the imaging flattens as the volume is increased, beyond normal listening levels - but that's fine with me.
I built a flea powered SET to go with them and it is a wonderful combo.
For live recorded material, spacious ambient recordings and close mic'd vocals these are the best speakers I have ever heard at any price!
But then...doesn't stop me looking to see what else is possible.
On a few tracks I notice a bit of mid-range forwardness, a kind of boxy sound to voice and the imaging flattens as the volume is increased, beyond normal listening levels - but that's fine with me.
I built a flea powered SET to go with them and it is a wonderful combo.
For live recorded material, spacious ambient recordings and close mic'd vocals these are the best speakers I have ever heard at any price!
But then...doesn't stop me looking to see what else is possible.
Martin, nice BIBs! I also have mine for a long time and I love them. Last time I did some stuff tuning, they are also in a new room, and I was surprised about their "new" sound.
I have the same experience with some recordings! Does anyone know if this can be solved? Or is it how BIBs sound?
I have the same experience with some recordings! Does anyone know if this can be solved? Or is it how BIBs sound?
You can´t solve that problem unless you build yourself a second pair of boxes. Singers nowadays are "casted" for their looks, not their voice - that extra midrange push is meant to give their minniemouse voice a bit more "authority". The same mixer settings kept when mastering a real singer - bad luck.
Well, it is true that the speakers let you hear the real mix, warts and all but that is the reward when the original material is of a high standard.
For me this mid-range issue is only occasional - one track on an otherwise fine sounding album so I think it is the mix.
If you turn the volume up too far then eventually the drivers won't produce enough bass to keep up and the presentation gets mid-range prominent. But I listen plenty loud enough (living in a rural location) and they are fine 99% of the time.
I did swap out my original internal wiring recently and replace with silver wire 0.6mm and it has made a real difference. The top end is now full free of glare and has an amazing shimmer - symbols sound like they could go on for ever.
For me this mid-range issue is only occasional - one track on an otherwise fine sounding album so I think it is the mix.
If you turn the volume up too far then eventually the drivers won't produce enough bass to keep up and the presentation gets mid-range prominent. But I listen plenty loud enough (living in a rural location) and they are fine 99% of the time.
I did swap out my original internal wiring recently and replace with silver wire 0.6mm and it has made a real difference. The top end is now full free of glare and has an amazing shimmer - symbols sound like they could go on for ever.
Maybe you need some room treatment. In loud levels, room plays a significant role.
About wiring, did you try any CAT5 wire? I use CAT5 with solid core wires and the results are more than great. And, you have the opportunity to experiment with 4 parallel pairs.
Yeah, I discovered cat5 too. I made my speaker cable from 6 twisted pairs, plaited into + and - and covered in cotton rope. Looks great and no compromise with sound. Have you tried cat5 cable just as 2 runs of single solid core cable almost like an interconnect? I was wondering if that would be too small dia but am interested to know what it will do to the sound.
If you find the top end is OK but not that special, do try some silver plated copper or better still pure silver. For a small amount its very little money for big returns. Suits my set-up really well. I know some folks don't agree but there is no going back for me.
If you find the top end is OK but not that special, do try some silver plated copper or better still pure silver. For a small amount its very little money for big returns. Suits my set-up really well. I know some folks don't agree but there is no going back for me.
Try it... you mightfind you like it... with the FE168eS you certainly won't have issues with current carrying capability.
We started with lotsa strands and have worked our way down to single pairs...
dave
Honestly? I still love them.
On a few tracks I notice a bit of mid-range forwardness, a kind of boxy sound to voice and the imaging flattens as the volume is increased, beyond normal listening levels - but that's fine with me.
I built a flea powered SET to go with them and it is a wonderful combo.
But then...doesn't stop me looking to see what else is possible.
Cool!
Hmm, this implies it's in the recording mix and/or amp clipping and/or driver distortion, not a box loading and/or room problem. Factor in the flea power and voltage dropping ~23 ga. wire and we have a winner!
Understood. I lucked up decades ago finding a combination that only cubic $$$ systems well beyond my means could best, but time moves on and in recent years I auditioned a semi-affordable system that's enough of a step up overall that I've got the 'hots' to DIY a 21st century system before I'm too old to do it.
~23 ga...... I'm curious what their lengths are and the amp's output impedance (not tap rating) or at least published damping factor if available.
GM
True, but in the vocal range a 'FR' driver is already beaming, so room interaction is rarely an issue. It's just a sad fact of life that some folks mix the vocals to be way in front of the band to the point of audibly distorting if turned up a bit (Nora Jones, LeAnn Rimes are sizzling examples). Factor in that most 'FR' drivers today have a bit of a peak through our acute hearing BW that exacerbates the problem; and if it has some corresponding peaking up around 7 kHz where sibilance resides you have a driver only suitable for skeet practice or ceiling PA apps IMNSHO if the necessary EQ isn't used.
GM
Same as I've been periodically been mentioning for awhile now, a large Unity three way concept coupled to either tapped TQWTs or tapped horns down around/at 80 Hz with extension to ~10 Hz. Not sure which yet, I'll have to try both to see which works best in whatever room I use since their acoustic efficiency and time delay is so different.
Until I can get my property and me fixed up and in order and assuming it left me any disposable income, only then can I begin.
If I were to buy it, I'm guessing it would be in the $7-8 k range, which in today's inflated $$ is on a par with a 1939 Sears Silvertone Console (re-badged RCA). The only difference today is that back then folks could buy a brand new Buick for slightly less! What new car can you buy today for $7-8 k?
GM
Until I can get my property and me fixed up and in order and assuming it left me any disposable income, only then can I begin.
If I were to buy it, I'm guessing it would be in the $7-8 k range, which in today's inflated $$ is on a par with a 1939 Sears Silvertone Console (re-badged RCA). The only difference today is that back then folks could buy a brand new Buick for slightly less! What new car can you buy today for $7-8 k?
GM
Well, the DSL Synergy SH-50 has enough efficiency/power handling to come close and several ~small TH's that combine to output two DTS-10 THs would have so much dynamic headroom that the system would mostly idle except on some classical and pipe organ symphonies and meet DD/DTS/THX reference with ~35 W, ergo distortion should be below the room's noise floor.
GM
GM
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GM - sounds mind blowing!
I am currently working on a gainclone (Audio Sector LM3875) and Peter's premium NOS DAC built into the same chassis. I want to see what computer audio has to offer but it will also test to see if it's my SET that is clipping.
I've got to finish the chassis and burn it in yet so no immediate answers.
I am currently working on a gainclone (Audio Sector LM3875) and Peter's premium NOS DAC built into the same chassis. I want to see what computer audio has to offer but it will also test to see if it's my SET that is clipping.
I've got to finish the chassis and burn it in yet so no immediate answers.
Trust me, unless your SET amp has a VERY 'stiff' power supply (high power voltage rails) to handle the high amplitude ('fast') transients in the ~250-500 Hz BW, it's clipping big time, ditto the speaker due to minimal Xmax. It may sound wonderful on most source material, but harmonic distortion is still distortion even if it's euphonic.
Again, it boils down to how 'fat'/'accurate' you want it to sound, so at the personal level there is no right/wrong answer and considering how most mass marketed CDs are mastered for B0$3/mp3/whatever type systems, there's much to be said for creating a 'fat' reproduction system that 'fills in' as much of its zeros as practical with the trade-off being it's too way too 'fat' on well recorded/hi-def material, at least for some of us anyway.
I'm so disgusted with the quality of CDs overall that about the only ~current music I listen to anymore is on movie soundtracks through a pair of highly digitally enhanced, incredibly cheap, high Fs, Qt, 6.5" whizzer 'FR' drivers with capped off 1" clock radio 'FR' drivers that's positioned many WLs away from the mains with this sound system mounted down at the lower left, right front corners on axis with our lower legs.
With its digital signal processor by-passed, it's completely unlistenable, sounding even worse than my description implies even after a doing the $0.98 tweak and sitting on the floor to be closer to its main axis. With whatever the now technically ancient Toshiba H65HX81 uses for signal processing though, with the exception of the Babb Loreleis it transforms them into a better performing system overall than the best ear axis 'FR' driver systems I've ever auditioned with wider BW, sound-staging and dynamic headroom to boot.
I've no doubt that BIB loaded 'FR' drivers probably can outperform them down really low where the processor is obviously trying to protect the drivers against excessive excursion, but by the same token the BIB isn't limiting it with its harmonic distortion to the same degree, i.e. how well it can handle U-571's LFE channel's depth charge explosions or similar.
Clearly, DSP is the future of sound reproduction, so 99.9999% of what we discuss/debate/argue over now will be moot as soon as DIYers embrace it and manufacturers can somehow offer us a much less expensive Lorelei concept.
GM
Again, it boils down to how 'fat'/'accurate' you want it to sound, so at the personal level there is no right/wrong answer and considering how most mass marketed CDs are mastered for B0$3/mp3/whatever type systems, there's much to be said for creating a 'fat' reproduction system that 'fills in' as much of its zeros as practical with the trade-off being it's too way too 'fat' on well recorded/hi-def material, at least for some of us anyway.
I'm so disgusted with the quality of CDs overall that about the only ~current music I listen to anymore is on movie soundtracks through a pair of highly digitally enhanced, incredibly cheap, high Fs, Qt, 6.5" whizzer 'FR' drivers with capped off 1" clock radio 'FR' drivers that's positioned many WLs away from the mains with this sound system mounted down at the lower left, right front corners on axis with our lower legs.
With its digital signal processor by-passed, it's completely unlistenable, sounding even worse than my description implies even after a doing the $0.98 tweak and sitting on the floor to be closer to its main axis. With whatever the now technically ancient Toshiba H65HX81 uses for signal processing though, with the exception of the Babb Loreleis it transforms them into a better performing system overall than the best ear axis 'FR' driver systems I've ever auditioned with wider BW, sound-staging and dynamic headroom to boot.
I've no doubt that BIB loaded 'FR' drivers probably can outperform them down really low where the processor is obviously trying to protect the drivers against excessive excursion, but by the same token the BIB isn't limiting it with its harmonic distortion to the same degree, i.e. how well it can handle U-571's LFE channel's depth charge explosions or similar.
Clearly, DSP is the future of sound reproduction, so 99.9999% of what we discuss/debate/argue over now will be moot as soon as DIYers embrace it and manufacturers can somehow offer us a much less expensive Lorelei concept.
GM
Amen. - Not really sure how to follow that GM so I won't! Who's Babb Loreleis anyway
I do a lot of my own recording (natural ambience and nature recording rather than studio work) and have 24/96 native files that I want to put through the NOS DAC and see how they sound.
I am also interested in the future of hifi being not limited to CD as a medium, so this is step in that direction for me.
I have got some CDs that sound stunning. Really enjoyable stuff from the MA recording label and a few from ECM. We are talking intimate jazz (or world music) recorded in church ambience or local clubs where the room is an important part of the reproduction. If I listen to this material all night so that my ears are accustomed to it and then play a regular CD at the end of the evening I cannot believe where the hifi has gone. The pleasure is totally missing.
So for me it is not that I don't like all commercial CDs but it is all about choosing horses for courses.
Hey in the car I listen to MP3s and don't give a dam about soundstage.
I do a lot of my own recording (natural ambience and nature recording rather than studio work) and have 24/96 native files that I want to put through the NOS DAC and see how they sound.
I am also interested in the future of hifi being not limited to CD as a medium, so this is step in that direction for me.
I have got some CDs that sound stunning. Really enjoyable stuff from the MA recording label and a few from ECM. We are talking intimate jazz (or world music) recorded in church ambience or local clubs where the room is an important part of the reproduction. If I listen to this material all night so that my ears are accustomed to it and then play a regular CD at the end of the evening I cannot believe where the hifi has gone. The pleasure is totally missing.
So for me it is not that I don't like all commercial CDs but it is all about choosing horses for courses.
Hey in the car I listen to MP3s and don't give a dam about soundstage.
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Who's Babb Loreleis anyway
Hmm, I didn't phrase that too well. I was referring to the late Babb Lorelei single driver that's the only truly full-range single driver I'm aware of.
Yeah, I much prefer live recordings with their ambiance even if they lack some of a studio recording's clarity, detail from individual close miking. I have some '50s jazz recordings done in nightclubs during what sounds like a slow time patron wise that while somewhat lacking in SQ due to being done with what sounds like a single mic and tape recorder, they are more HIFI to me.
Yeah, I mostly listen to AM talk radio shows and to 'chill me out' when in one of Atlanta's moving traffic jams, the fastest copied CDs I can make, so high SQ, etc. isn't a priority.
GM
iBIB Exit Question
rough cuts made for an inverted BIB using the HiVi B3S (small living room). When you get the driver height up to a good level, there is about 3.5" of extension to the mouth. In considering how to deal with the exit, which of the two approaches here would be best?
The left is just a radius and the right is the same radius, but split a la Karlson (understanding that a Karlson is not a simple radius). I prefer the left aesthetically, but if the right is beneficial sonically, so be it.
Thoughts?
rough cuts made for an inverted BIB using the HiVi B3S (small living room). When you get the driver height up to a good level, there is about 3.5" of extension to the mouth. In considering how to deal with the exit, which of the two approaches here would be best?
The left is just a radius and the right is the same radius, but split a la Karlson (understanding that a Karlson is not a simple radius). I prefer the left aesthetically, but if the right is beneficial sonically, so be it.
Thoughts?
Attachments
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