Tale of bad capacitors taking a company down

[jean-paul]

Actually you proved my point JP. If the author was objective he would have mentioned Apple....but noooooooo

Indeed nooooo as Apple replaced faulty power supplies for free till a certain date. The approach was much different from Dells at which the article emphasizes. No denial AFAIK although they silently extended the warranty period after it expired without publishing this openly. A bit like Dell did as they also extended the warranty silently. GX270/280 were repaired for free after the official warranty period, maybe they even repair them for free nowadays as it is a product manufactured with errors (beyond their fault). I think HP has done the same as they also had Nichicon HN on some of their boards. Canon does it right now with the wrongly produced CCD from Sony that they used in a lot of camera's they made. My 2004 IXUS 400 is now being repaired for free under warranty !


Every company can have these problems because of another company but denial and the other mentioned techniques were not the wisest choices Dell made. I coul dget along with their support engineers but when it came down to solving series of the same technical problems we really had to convince them what was wrong with a thorough explanation to them ! After that they accepted it in most cases and looked for a solution. We saw it a bit as a game.

I did the talks with Dell myself at that time (we bought pc's and notebooks by the hundreds) and they first denied and then replaced the boards for the same faulty boards they had in stock. Also they were clearly instructed to emphasize that other brands had the same problems and that they were the only company that could track down all sold computers and that they would contact every owner of possible faulty machines. Just like the article says. Which they did not of course.

We also had series of the same troubles with D600 laptops where a wrongly constructed Bluetooth daughterboard broke off the mainboard. Besides that they also were equipped with a badly produced series Fujitsu harddisks that all went bad after some time as their bearings broke down, partly also because of an inadequate ventilation in that laptop computer. I recall drilling ventilation holes myself in harddisk brackets to improve airflow. Weeks of denial and after I made pics and explained a third level support guy that visited us for this matter what went wrong they accepted and assisted us by sending us replacement BT modules and harddisk brackets by boxes so that we could replace them ourselves which out manager did not approve of

BTW Bas, most people that are anti Apple are just jealous and they become grumpy because of that. Especially the "overpriced" is an often used word. Just add all the hours of virus- and spyware removals and re-installations of Windows at a yearly base and see which system is overpriced The most recent word that is used with Apple owners is that they are mostly homosexual. You can use that one at the next birthday party !

 

[PhotoBob]

I have a workstation that Dell had me wipe out and reload twice in a year. When I finally took a look almost all the capacitors were leaking or bulging. What can customers do about it if it is out of warranty?

 

[Sebastiaan]

BTW Bas, most people that are anti Apple are just jealous and they become grumpy because of that. Especially the "overpriced" is an often used word. Just add all the hours of virus- and spyware removals and re-installations of Windows at a yearly base and see which system is overpriced The most recent word that is used with Apple owners is that they are mostly homosexual. You can use that one at the next birthday party !

haha, well Jean-Paul, You got me! I am an Apple fan-boy But if you open an Apple laptop you find first class PCB design and even (yes yes) Sanyo Oscon capacitors.

Well all jokes aside, I do use windows as well for designing and simulation, but my love goes clearly to MAC.

With kind regards,
Bas

 

[jean-paul]

I have a workstation that Dell had me wipe out and reload twice in a year. When I finally took a look almost all the capacitors were leaking or bulging. What can customers do about it if it is out of warranty?

You could give Dell a call or replace the caps yourself if they don't want to repair the system for free/low costs. Don't use the system anymore till it has been repaired because if the caps really short/blow they will take out the MOSFETs and then repair is quite hard. If you plan to do it yourself you need more than basic desoldering skills and the right equipment.

There is a website for these specific problems:

Badcaps.net - Badcaps Home

 

[benb]

I started reading the OP and immediately did a web search on the issue. I first recall reading about this problem around 2000-2001 (Wikipedia dates the problem to 1999), and reading this now I'm surprised how many years the bad caps stayed on the market. I see someone else already posted a link to the Wikipedia article.

Here's an interesting article from the search results:
Blown, Burst and Leaking Motherboard Capacitors - A Serious Problem? - PCSTATS.com

It's a complex problem, and the fact that businesses have even been set up to replace faulty mainboard capacitors is an interesting footnote to just how widespread this issue may be as older motherboards begin to show their age. If you know how to solder and read the labels on the aluminum capacitors, it should be possible to replace the capacitors yourself - assuming you can find identical replacements at a local electronics parts supply store. Aluminum capacitors are relatively large compared to other board mounted components, and in the factories are installed by hand.

I've never had a motherboard problem, but my current computer did have a power supply that went out. I run it 24/7, and I think I found it off one day. Pushing the "on/off" electronic start button got it started, but it later stopped and didn't start. I got a new supply to get back going, and eventually opened up the bad supply and replaced the bulging caps (at least they had been glued to the PCB so the solder connections wouldn't come apart due to vibration) with new ones from Digikey, and it's been back in the PC ever since.

As the possibility of replacing motherboard capacitors, those boards have components put together so tightly and are so thick it would be a real pain to do. Just for fun and practice I've removed components from old motherboards, it took a hot iron to melt all the solder in the hole to pull a cap lead out, and I didn't even care if there was damage to the board.

 

[abraxalito]

General Electric showed back in the 1970s that it is not worth it to go with the cheaper part should even one of those parts fail in the field. The cost of shipping alone will often be more than the difference in cost, moreover, it can be more than the difference between several parts!

Yep, that's common sense but probably the main reason the lesson doesn't get learned in companies is accounting. The R&D department specified the capacitor, the purchasing dept. found a cheaper source but the service department picks up the tab. So with standard accounting there's no way to allocate the consequences of poor design and incompetent sourcing to R&D and purchasing. Its called 'moral hazard' and in my experience companies are full of it.

 

[Pano]

Oh no. And I have an Optiplex as my music server. Well, it is reconditioned and has a warranty, but maybe it's time to look at those caps.

 

[johnr66]

I built my computer in 2004 and in 2008 it was getting hard to turn on. Had to push the button many tries. Finally it would not turn on anymore. I traced the problem to a bad PSU. I installed a new one and examined the old one. Several leaking or bulging electrolytics.

I used an ASUS motherboard and so far, after 6 years, the caps are fine. This problem affected several motherboard manufacturers including ASUS.

I was head of IT of a company up until 2007. We built our own machines and luckily we had few problems.

We bought many laptops for the travelers from many brands such as Dell, Toshiba, Winbook, Lenovo and others. Laptops are less reliable in my experience.

This experience should teach the manufacturers of components and products a good lesson. Sadly we will continue to hear how some cheap or poorly made component caused major hassles. I haven't followed up on the Toyota issues a few months back, but perhaps it parallels this cap issue in some ways.

 

[Tubelab_com]

The plant where I work is full of Dell computers (at least 1000) the one on my desk was made in 2004. It is a high end Xeon based machine with 2 dual core processors in it. It has been turned on 24/7 since Jan 2005, but has been acting rather stupid lately. I guess it is time to look inside. It looked OK last time I had it open, which was at least a year ago. Many of the other machines of the same vintage have already failed, but I don't recall a MB failure. Most have been power supplies, HD's or memory SIMMS in that order. Several of the Dell 24 inch LCD monitors have died, many only a year old.

 

[infinia]

IMO this is more of lesson of denial (greed?) of upper management in taking down of a corporation or even a National space program. Unfortunately they often Do "shoot the messenger" of bad news.
I call it “hiding their head in the sand, like an ostrich” syndrome

 

[abraxalito]

Yep, 'Guns don't kill detectives, love does'. Contrary to Steve Job's impression of Google being 'out to kill the iPhone' (just to take a recent example) companies aren't taken down by external competition. Rather, they're taken down by their own denial - from the inside.

 

[sonidos]

Yes, infinia and abraxalito

People I know who worked in the company previously (btw, they did not leave on ugly terms and still take pride in their work accomplished at Dell so these are not folks with an axe to grind) have made similar comments.

It got to the point that the party was going so good, that upper management did not want to give bad news to the execs. My coworker was bumped out because he started out during the early period in the early 90's and always had access to Michael if push came to shove. This evoked jealousy from upper management because my coworker felt the need to involve Michael or Michael's personal secretary into the argument when absolutely necessary, with upper management getting a beating from Michael for making dumb decisions. So, with many of them in 'CYA' mode, the early guys were bumped out bit by bit and there are very few left at Dell who know why certain systems were put in place 'way back when'. Truly sad.

In those days, as a competitor with Dell, both sides took great pride in their machines. We supplied machines in Desert Storm and one took a SCUD hit, blown several feet away, and still worked. It can still be done, but career/resume builders are killing the company.

 

[Bas Horneman]

Sounds like a very old story re-told. I remember lots of similar reports years ago.

I just found out why this story was post now with Dell playing a leading role. There is some kind of lawsuit against Dell and these reports are coming out of the courtroom.

I bought my Dell in 2004 and it is still going strong. Recently bought a Dell SX 2210 monitor and love it to bits. (Looks like a giant Ipad)

Dell just won some customer focus award in 2010 so they are cleaning up their act it seems.
http://blogs.forrester.com/andrew_mcinnes/10-06-29-winners_forrester_voice_customer_awards_2010

At least Dell's products are not racist. Unlike those by HP. http://www.pcworld.com/article/185234/hp_our_webcams_are_not_racist.html

 

[Redshift187]

I bought 2 Optiplex systems (1 each GX270 and GX280) from work ($10 each) when they upgraded. My understanding was that both motherboards had been replaced with "working" ones when the problem surfaced (every machine at work had the motherboard replaced when the news hit). One of them worked badly from the beginning and after a few days, wouldn't work at all. I opened it up, and it seems all of the bad caps had been replaced except 9(!!!) along the side of the CPU socket. These had not been replaced because of laziness, as there is a metal bracket on the bottom of the board holding the CPU cooler in place that blocks access to the pins of the capacitors, and the bracket is not easily removed.

I have new capacitors in the mail and will have to inspect the other system as well.

 

[Damon Hill]

Just had a MSI motherboard with Nvidia 2 chipset go no-POST on me. Once I'm out of the recovery trauma (backup plans went badly), I'll replace two vented caps and their neighbors and see if that doesn't fix it. The MB ran 24/7 for years crunching SETI numbers so I'm not much surprised it finally went down.

My ESR meter will get a workout testing and comparing the old caps with their replacements; if I find that the remaining caps are marginal, I'll have to 'shotgun' the entire set. Maybe I should on general principle.

 

[russel]

Electrolytics

In today's New York Times:

In Faulty-Computer Suit, Window to Dell Decline
problems faster than competitors.

John Westlake has mentioned capacitor quality problems for the Da Capo see this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/70107-da-capo-issue-john-w.html .

He also mentions the type, Nippon Chemicon LXF, I replaced mine and they were SXE type and no problems were seen with regards leakage.


I also have an AsRock media PC and it makes a point it does not use wet electrolytics on the motherboard but rather solid aluminium.

I do not know whether suppositions in this Nytimes article are true or not but they could have some merit.

There is an old saying "spoiling the ship for a 'ha pennyworth of tar". I think its an expression you have to say you do not understand if you want to be an accountant.

 

[sonidos]

I just rebuilt another workstation and bought an Asus board. They had splashed on the box how they use solid caps on their board prominently, so the industry knows it can be a problem.

There is no excuse to what happened at Dell. This was a multi-year problem.

When we went to color monitors from monochrome, we had complaints that the upper left had a reddish pink hue. An assembly line was set up, and loaded with about 200 monitors. Practically all had the problem. Two engineers were flown out from Samsung's factory to Austin, where we learned that the monitors had to be de-gaussed. After that, all their monitors had a degauss button.

Mind you, we had a few people say it was not that bad and that we should ship the monitors anyway.

 

[benb]

I'm reminded of the synthesizer maker ARP. I heard a story long ago that their last synthesizer had a 100-percent return rate because of a "bad switch" and those returns brought the company down. While that's it in one short sentence, story is somewhat more complicated than that, and reminds me of the Shuttle failures where engineers were trying to tell management something Very Important but for whatever reason failed. In this case the engineer was the founder of the company, and the man whose initials made up its name (Alan R. Pearlman):
Rhodes Chroma · The Rise and Fall of ARP

 

[rdf]

Wasn't there an entire back end to this story ....

Quoting myself, yes indeed.

 

[infinia]

and reminds me of the Shuttle failures where engineers were trying to tell management something Very Important but for whatever reason failed.

That's what I was thinking The Challenger O-ring Disaster
AFIK Some pressure by NASA top officials was applied to not having any mission launch scrubs because President Reagan's state of the union speech scheduled that same night was going to mention the Challenger.