Which is why I mentioned "at cost of vertical pattern control freq"
And I appreciate that. You have quite some experience with both designs..
I think it will take some DBTs to find out if some of the technical advantages translate to audible differences in normal living room...
Bill had it right, the collapsing polar control makes the vertical situation worse not better. The narrower vertical dimension allows for closer sources, which is an improvement, but not as much as the loss of control from the narrower dimensions.
Is it not the lesser linearility of the compression drivers the worst Horns ennemy ?
Is it false to think than classic drivers should be flatter in wave guides & horns ? Or is it just a non-problem ? many prefer here the compression drivers, not only for more spl but also for a better subjective "dynamic" behavior, mostly with the littliest details (aka micro-dynamics?) !
Here a conventional listening space is about 25 sqm (sorry for the meters !) ! (and are lesser & lesser as the buildings grow in time)
Some like S. Linkwitz with his mid-bass firering towards the ceilling at a so high 600 Hz frequency seems not to care of single point source !!!!
So is Synergy design for home listening situation not only a need of higher spl (tubes wanted?) or simply wanting to avoid the most they can room interactions at the lowest frequencies possible ? I mean, with DSPs it's not anymore about phase behavior with FIR EQ, so multi-way designs are less a problem than before but if you use expensive SET amps)
So the 100 Hz to around 700 Hz frequency range seems to call all our interrest both because it's a verry difficult range to make accurate and maybe also the biggest challenge for Industry (because of the vast diversity of the buyers rooms space ?)
Having a preocupation below the Schroeder frequency our listening room is not enough ?
Is it false to think than classic drivers should be flatter in wave guides & horns ? Or is it just a non-problem ? many prefer here the compression drivers, not only for more spl but also for a better subjective "dynamic" behavior, mostly with the littliest details (aka micro-dynamics?) !
Here a conventional listening space is about 25 sqm (sorry for the meters !) ! (and are lesser & lesser as the buildings grow in time)
Some like S. Linkwitz with his mid-bass firering towards the ceilling at a so high 600 Hz frequency seems not to care of single point source !!!!
So is Synergy design for home listening situation not only a need of higher spl (tubes wanted?) or simply wanting to avoid the most they can room interactions at the lowest frequencies possible ? I mean, with DSPs it's not anymore about phase behavior with FIR EQ, so multi-way designs are less a problem than before but if you use expensive SET amps)
So the 100 Hz to around 700 Hz frequency range seems to call all our interrest both because it's a verry difficult range to make accurate and maybe also the biggest challenge for Industry (because of the vast diversity of the buyers rooms space ?)
Having a preocupation below the Schroeder frequency our listening room is not enough ?
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Interesting that Tom treated it.
IMD is easy to measure. ARTA supports it. Just use two tones (or more) with a certain distance in frequency. There will be new difference tones visible.
Usually the more ways a speaker has the less IMD it produces. Examples are on Neumann's site. Now I wonder if the Synergy Horn as a multi-way speaker follows that or introduces new IMD caused by the shared horn.
I just don't know.
My concern is more along the lines of an appropriate acoustical space. I used to have access to a wide open expanse of flat concrete with electricity...but I don't any more. Then I have to measure near-field to the mouth of the horn....and I have to be concerned with overloading the microphone. I'll look to see if ARTA can gate a multi-tone signal.
I did it as loud as I could without overloading my uMik-1, used continuous tones with REW and tested at ~.25 meters. The Synergy style design I tested was my smaller one with a PRV D290, Gento 2" buyout midranges (Bill Waslo uses these) and Vifa TC14SG49-08.
A note on how loud this was...I was wearing hearing protection and it was still quite loud. I could *feel* my clothes sympathetically vibrating with the 200Hz tone.....
I used a 200Hz/8kHz tone at a 4:1 ratio. I turned up the signal until the mic signaled overload and then backed it down 3dB.
First I tested the THD of the woofers...without the 8kHz HF tone. Next I tested the IMD of the combo.
There is some visible IMD...but let me be absolutely clear.
At this volume level in a domestic environment (what I care about) you'd be DEAF AS A POST in a very short time.
Also. I enjoy having a speaker with lower THD than many single ended amps using $14.00 woofers, $.75 midranges...and a $70 tweeter. It tickles me.
Scott
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My listening space in North America was 24.5 sqm. Smaller than I would have liked, but enough to be happy with. Didn't cramp the big horns too much. Should have taken the whole garage, which would have put the room at 33 sqm, a little more breathing room. Plenty for domestic listening, I think. The SH-50 would do well in that space. I believe that 25 to 35 sqm (270-377 sq ft) is typical of the rooms I've visited in the U.S.
Now I have about 130 sqm, and that certainly does help.
130 sqm ! Have you not echos ? Lucky you, If I had the luck to be near your house I will propose you a badmington session in your living room ! I always found Rolland Garos lacked of music !
The behavior of the multiple woofers in a Synergy design is puzzling me !
Is there a higher Sd with the several woofs in a SH-50 than a huge single 15" semi-horned like a Vott is ? I ask that to understand what could be the difference of behavior with a standalone strong Motorized 15" à la Summa from weakest multi-woofs in a synergy ?
At equal Sd, is there less cone mvt from the woofs in a synergy like the SH-50 because of the rise of the spl due to the horn profile? And even less if the Sd is greater than a 15" ?
The lesser exursions would help with micro dynamics and more details ? In the spirit of an array with many little drivers I mean...
Not talking about imaging & soundstage : do we have better than an Onken with two 15" for the resolution and precision to match the fastness & resolution in the upper range of the compression driver often playing above the fundamentals ?
The standalone solution like the Summa or the Beyma's projects we can see here and there deal with a 15" or a 12" standalone woofer with BL as great as 24 N/m, but is the relativ bigger exursion if exist could be heard by the listener as less resolution (than multi woofs synergysed) ?
PS : btw, I assume the cones of the woofers in a synergy design should have to be stiff and back dampep (sandwich or thick ?) to minimize the influence of the little sealed lrear load on the cones ? It should be like a pool game with sound waves at the woofers throats...
The behavior of the multiple woofers in a Synergy design is puzzling me !
Is there a higher Sd with the several woofs in a SH-50 than a huge single 15" semi-horned like a Vott is ? I ask that to understand what could be the difference of behavior with a standalone strong Motorized 15" à la Summa from weakest multi-woofs in a synergy ?
At equal Sd, is there less cone mvt from the woofs in a synergy like the SH-50 because of the rise of the spl due to the horn profile? And even less if the Sd is greater than a 15" ?
The lesser exursions would help with micro dynamics and more details ? In the spirit of an array with many little drivers I mean...
Not talking about imaging & soundstage : do we have better than an Onken with two 15" for the resolution and precision to match the fastness & resolution in the upper range of the compression driver often playing above the fundamentals ?
The standalone solution like the Summa or the Beyma's projects we can see here and there deal with a 15" or a 12" standalone woofer with BL as great as 24 N/m, but is the relativ bigger exursion if exist could be heard by the listener as less resolution (than multi woofs synergysed) ?
PS : btw, I assume the cones of the woofers in a synergy design should have to be stiff and back dampep (sandwich or thick ?) to minimize the influence of the little sealed lrear load on the cones ? It should be like a pool game with sound waves at the woofers throats...
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Most speakers are getting or around omni directional in the upper bass and low midrange, loosing efficiency and masking the fundamental tones and detail of the music below 400-500 cycles. I've found either a dipole with two or more 15" woofers works well or a single 8 to 15" driver in a front horn may even be better. The industry is typical build to a price point, make a buck and into is no such thing as "real" playback mentality.
Best to build bass , upper bass and low mid to suite your room if possible
Yes it's a little the sense of my question ! Horn=less cone break-ups, less exursions, so bigger precisison and details in the sounds ? Or not at equal Sd ? (I'm not speaking of more spl to add a SET amp for instance... but really about hearing more things in this "fundamental" FR !))
If I read the new launch of OB-15 by Gravsen, the no box effect seems nice, but my understanding is this subjective behavior is only for macro dynamic as an OB woof have deeper cone exursion (so more break-up as well) ! Not hearable ?
If I read the new launch of OB-15 by Gravsen, the no box effect seems nice, but my understanding is this subjective behavior is only for macro dynamic as an OB woof have deeper cone exursion (so more break-up as well) ! Not hearable ?
I think the out of the box and no box resonance as well as maybe better directional (less room interaction) helps the dipole. If you use enough drivers like two 15's and high pass the bass they can move enough air without over excursion and masking detail. I find the higher QTS pro 15's can sound spectacular BUT the bass horn is a transformer coupling the driver to the air - for example the midbass horns I am listening to right now have an 8 square foot mouth and have the detail of the dipole but very high efficiency where high passing is not mandatory because of the very small excursion need for the given SPL - so if you have the room use bass horns and if not twin pro sound higher QTS 15's as a dipole - The 100 to 800 hz range is the heart of the music
Yes...SH-50 has two 12" woofers, ~530cm^2 SD each...a 15 is ~860 and therefore 2x530=1060 > 860.
By strong and weak I assume you mean size...in reality it has less to do with size of woofer than with displaced air vs. input power and the ability to linearly displace the air.
Properly done, there is significantly less distortion coming from excursion reducing horn coupling and the low pass limiting effect of the horn coupling taps/ports.
Imaging and soundstage has a *lot* to do with eliminating early reflections.
Wha? The operation of the Synergy design is well explained in the patents.
Well well. Years after I started this thread it would seem that after reading all comments and potshots Toms Synergy design *really doesn't have any drawback for hifi use at all* No one really has been able to shoot a significant hole in the design. Sooooooo.....seems to me the only drawback at all is cost and complexity but is that not what we would expect? You are paying a premium price for a vastly superior product. All speaker being compromises but imo this is the best compromise and stands as the state of the art in speaker design.
I don't disagree (well, the ports in the wall are still a negative, though benefits outweigh problems IMO).
The big disadvantage right now, for home audio, is that they are patented and the manufacturer isn't interested much in our market or licensing anyone else to address it. Audio folks could get the pro stuff and adapt it, but the Synergy line doesnt look much like stereo gear, nor does it get marketed that way.
The big disadvantage right now, for home audio, is that they are patented and the manufacturer isn't interested much in our market or licensing anyone else to address it. Audio folks could get the pro stuff and adapt it, but the Synergy line doesnt look much like stereo gear, nor does it get marketed that way.
I have spoken to Tom on the phone about this. The truth is that it is his passion to produce them for a broader market, but he is not the only person involved in such decisions, and I hope I am not speaking out of "church" on this, it has been some time now.
What you think match to my readings & understanding. I wanted firstly to go for the InlowSound or Volvotreter straight horn... but the 1 meter and more is a no go unluckilly ! (but the day I have the caveman)
For many, Gedllee and Danley sealed mid-bass is easier for integration. In fact I asked because I believe the xrq971 Trynergy (Traticx/synergy horn with a conventional 2" or 3" FR) could be an acceptable trade off for a cheap DIY. But I asked to myself if a direct driver (could it be OB or not) for exactly the frequencies you're talking about (100 to 700/800 Hz- trying & error with active filter) could be a best trade off to the horned synergised mid-bass ?
- OB is hard because I match a higher spl than maybe 2x 15" in OB per way (...and not talking of the big foot print !) : 115 spl @ 1m at highest peaks without up-EQ à la Linkwitz Transform to have the shortest impulse response on this whole 100-700/800 Hz essential range for subjective dynamic behavior and also for its needs in micro-dynamics (details, good resolution).
I know Earl choosed the mid-bass of his Summa both for the strong motor and mainly for its smooth behavior in the highs to match the wave guide. But I really asking myself the best trade off of the two between the synergy mid-bass with speedy multi littlier woofers VS a big SOTA one (If the caveman I would have tried theOB 2 x 15", a line array à la StiigErik oreven OB 2x 18") !
Like some in this thread, I'm really puzzled by the how-to about the mid-bass parameters for the woof choice and their load design in a Synergy !
But yes I agree with you than if the soundstage id not in the highest rank of the personal scale of the listener, direct horn for mid-bass with a 8" seems to be the choice for dynamic behavior and large spl for speedy dynamic behavior !
The big W Onken works greats but is a mess and weight tons and it's not the best furnitures for a living room ! Woofer à la JBL M2 in a vented design becomes an acceptable trade off with the FIR correction of the vented port to play in phase with the cone (despite a less good behavior in the low end : sharper roll off :subjectivly less good at the ear than the smooth sealed one or the better OB one !)... but here it becomes Off topic !
thanks a lot POOH for your answer above,
best regards
Eldam
PS : My Boston Acoustics I have for 18 years now is looking more & more to me as a submitted woman in Burkha suit Résultats Google Recherche d'images correspondant à http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1111207796.jpg ... it's puzzled me more & more as I like the free wemen liking music and for us to see that in our living room !
For many, Gedllee and Danley sealed mid-bass is easier for integration. In fact I asked because I believe the xrq971 Trynergy (Traticx/synergy horn with a conventional 2" or 3" FR) could be an acceptable trade off for a cheap DIY. But I asked to myself if a direct driver (could it be OB or not) for exactly the frequencies you're talking about (100 to 700/800 Hz- trying & error with active filter) could be a best trade off to the horned synergised mid-bass ?
- OB is hard because I match a higher spl than maybe 2x 15" in OB per way (...and not talking of the big foot print !) : 115 spl @ 1m at highest peaks without up-EQ à la Linkwitz Transform to have the shortest impulse response on this whole 100-700/800 Hz essential range for subjective dynamic behavior and also for its needs in micro-dynamics (details, good resolution).
I know Earl choosed the mid-bass of his Summa both for the strong motor and mainly for its smooth behavior in the highs to match the wave guide. But I really asking myself the best trade off of the two between the synergy mid-bass with speedy multi littlier woofers VS a big SOTA one (If the caveman I would have tried theOB 2 x 15", a line array à la StiigErik oreven OB 2x 18") !
Like some in this thread, I'm really puzzled by the how-to about the mid-bass parameters for the woof choice and their load design in a Synergy !
But yes I agree with you than if the soundstage id not in the highest rank of the personal scale of the listener, direct horn for mid-bass with a 8" seems to be the choice for dynamic behavior and large spl for speedy dynamic behavior !
The big W Onken works greats but is a mess and weight tons and it's not the best furnitures for a living room ! Woofer à la JBL M2 in a vented design becomes an acceptable trade off with the FIR correction of the vented port to play in phase with the cone (despite a less good behavior in the low end : sharper roll off :subjectivly less good at the ear than the smooth sealed one or the better OB one !)... but here it becomes Off topic !
thanks a lot POOH for your answer above,
best regards
Eldam
PS : My Boston Acoustics I have for 18 years now is looking more & more to me as a submitted woman in Burkha suit Résultats Google Recherche d'images correspondant à http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1111207796.jpg ... it's puzzled me more & more as I like the free wemen liking music and for us to see that in our living room !
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Thanks for that
!You mean the wood of the Danley's SH-50 have a vented behavior or are basicly vented ?
In your own design, the littliest woof for mid-bass have high Qts (so poor BL) ?
@ Speaker-Scott : thanks as well
It's worst here as you can't find here a SH-50 to listen to at all ! (You Know France is a black hole in the map of the Danley's products
! (no markett here I assume as it's trusted by italina/spanish/great-brits PA)Trynergy is maybe good enough for spl in a conventional room.
As we read also, you lucky americans can source easily the M2 JBL driver for a good enough smooth compression driver at more friendly price for the Apex CD of a DIY Synergy ! (Welthery's)
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Eldam,
For home use, I am not sure why one would need the JBL D2 CD. I find the sound from the ScanSpeak 10F/8424 fiberglass cone so much more natural and smoother than a compression driver squeezing its guts out to handle a 1.2kHz XO in a horn. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the circa 18kHz top end on the 10F/8424 in open face application, once horn loaded in a tractrix, magically appears to hit 22kHz easily and with gusto, and still have that fiberglass magical smoothness of tone but with fierce attack that plays piano like I have never heard before. I think the powerful motor and the slight compression effect of a 2in square throat all work together to allow the highs to come through in the Trynergy. Having heard this, I am reluctant to go back to a compression driver pushing 1.2kHz to 20kHz. For home use, I can easily hit ear pain levels with no audible strain on the driver, so it's now a natural choice.
For mid bass, you need enough Sd to create the chest punch of drum set and a lot of this is from 80Hz to 150Hz. The more Sd you can get the better, and couple that through the bass ports in the horn. If I could squeeze four 8in drivers I would (it is technically possible with ports offset to edge of cone). Another option is to use a bit of a higher sensitivity 6in mid bass driver like the FaitalPro 6FE100 which when wired 4 in series-parallel and bandpass loaded into the horn mouth may get you upwards of 97dB sensitivity.
Another option is to use a massive horn like the University Classic to cover 70Hz to 500Hz and stick the full range Trynergy in the mouth of the Uni Classic for a coaxial horn that would really kick your heart out of your throat. The Uni Classic with a 99dB 18in pro sound driver is 108dB sensitive and needs no more than 3mm of stroke and maybe 15 watts to make obscene sound levels.
For home use, I am not sure why one would need the JBL D2 CD. I find the sound from the ScanSpeak 10F/8424 fiberglass cone so much more natural and smoother than a compression driver squeezing its guts out to handle a 1.2kHz XO in a horn. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the circa 18kHz top end on the 10F/8424 in open face application, once horn loaded in a tractrix, magically appears to hit 22kHz easily and with gusto, and still have that fiberglass magical smoothness of tone but with fierce attack that plays piano like I have never heard before. I think the powerful motor and the slight compression effect of a 2in square throat all work together to allow the highs to come through in the Trynergy. Having heard this, I am reluctant to go back to a compression driver pushing 1.2kHz to 20kHz. For home use, I can easily hit ear pain levels with no audible strain on the driver, so it's now a natural choice.
For mid bass, you need enough Sd to create the chest punch of drum set and a lot of this is from 80Hz to 150Hz. The more Sd you can get the better, and couple that through the bass ports in the horn. If I could squeeze four 8in drivers I would (it is technically possible with ports offset to edge of cone). Another option is to use a bit of a higher sensitivity 6in mid bass driver like the FaitalPro 6FE100 which when wired 4 in series-parallel and bandpass loaded into the horn mouth may get you upwards of 97dB sensitivity.
Another option is to use a massive horn like the University Classic to cover 70Hz to 500Hz and stick the full range Trynergy in the mouth of the Uni Classic for a coaxial horn that would really kick your heart out of your throat. The Uni Classic with a 99dB 18in pro sound driver is 108dB sensitive and needs no more than 3mm of stroke and maybe 15 watts to make obscene sound levels.
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Cool road map
I believed the M2 could be Xoed lower around 700 or 800 Hz ! But in all case as it has to shipped from US, it's a no-go for me ! Hey Cop21 ! (Is it the policeman n°21 ?)...
I bet the M2 (said to be a special one with less H3 than most of the CD ?) to have a better precision than the 10F. However, due to the very low exursion of the 10F in the horn as you writted, I'm sure it's good enough and also I like its sound ! Could the 2" EX88 from Founteq to be better ??? Just you ca answer to this for the moment !
Yes maybe the 6FE100 is what I need instead the Visatons...at least for the brain as I really don't know how sound a synergy design and have a non understanding of the patent (No I didn't read it !)... But the non too much expensive Trynergy with foam is appealing me !
In my head the obscene levels are just hear to answer to a rapid peak, I believe we are in the micro seconde domain, so you have no damage of the ears and the music stays lively and even permitt to lowzering the average level volume as you have not a compression of dynamic if the reccording allows it! I bet for a 115 dB peaks max for the reccordings at 1 meter and I listen at 3 meters...
In a classic big concert event : you can have on the most dynamic peaks : 130 dB (in the micro second domain : so we understand than the BL is an important factor in a driver) ! Hey it's huge but it's non a continuous sound as the launching of a rockett-ship at Cap Canaveral !
Most of people (not here) are damageing their ears by rising the volume as they don't feel this dynamic peak behavior ! ANd they do the opposite of what they want as the heardroom of the dynamic is even shorter (and also because the brain gets the habit of the higher volume) : at least this is what I believe, I may be wrong.... I want to recover the sensation of a VOTT without the furniture in the living room... maybe I dream ! I wanted OB, but it seems having some limitation ue to the placement in a room if no caveman and also a lower (in theory) dynamic due to the highest exursion (but never heard a 2 x15" as POOH writed !) ... I believe with a little cosmetic, stuffs like Sumas or SH-50 are possible in a living room ! Not a VOTT or a W Onken either !
I believed the M2 could be Xoed lower around 700 or 800 Hz ! But in all case as it has to shipped from US, it's a no-go for me ! Hey Cop21 ! (Is it the policeman n°21 ?)...
I bet the M2 (said to be a special one with less H3 than most of the CD ?) to have a better precision than the 10F. However, due to the very low exursion of the 10F in the horn as you writted, I'm sure it's good enough and also I like its sound ! Could the 2" EX88 from Founteq to be better ??? Just you ca answer to this for the moment !
Yes maybe the 6FE100 is what I need instead the Visatons...at least for the brain as I really don't know how sound a synergy design and have a non understanding of the patent (No I didn't read it !)... But the non too much expensive Trynergy with foam is appealing me !
In my head the obscene levels are just hear to answer to a rapid peak, I believe we are in the micro seconde domain, so you have no damage of the ears and the music stays lively and even permitt to lowzering the average level volume as you have not a compression of dynamic if the reccording allows it! I bet for a 115 dB peaks max for the reccordings at 1 meter and I listen at 3 meters...
In a classic big concert event : you can have on the most dynamic peaks : 130 dB (in the micro second domain : so we understand than the BL is an important factor in a driver) ! Hey it's huge but it's non a continuous sound as the launching of a rockett-ship at Cap Canaveral !
Most of people (not here) are damageing their ears by rising the volume as they don't feel this dynamic peak behavior ! ANd they do the opposite of what they want as the heardroom of the dynamic is even shorter (and also because the brain gets the habit of the higher volume) : at least this is what I believe, I may be wrong.... I want to recover the sensation of a VOTT without the furniture in the living room... maybe I dream ! I wanted OB, but it seems having some limitation ue to the placement in a room if no caveman and also a lower (in theory) dynamic due to the highest exursion (but never heard a 2 x15" as POOH writed !) ... I believe with a little cosmetic, stuffs like Sumas or SH-50 are possible in a living room ! Not a VOTT or a W Onken either !
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