OK, I am going to be a lot easier on you than my old business school professors.
Might ask Ohm how well mail order is doing. Or Cambridge. What do you know Marty or Henry don't? How about the 200 or so listed speaker companies in the Audio annual. It does not have all of them.
Now, go and DIY speakers for 20 or so years to learn the trade and earn your chops. You may get a hint at about the 50th pair. Get a real job, maybe for a driver manufacture, or how about the Canadian lab where they test speakers? A really basic design lab, like in your basement, can cost a hundred grand. This is business, not a hobby. I design and test in my home office with only a few thousand investment. It takes me months to do a half way design. Months more to tune it. You can't do business like that. Save all your money so you have enough to tease investment capital to loose a lot more. You know the saying, how to have a million bucks? Start with two. When you have your two year business plan with five year estimates, triple it. 90% of startups fail. Most were undercapitalized.
Mail order sub? No way. You have to make everything fit in a UPS box. 60Lbs max or you are talking common carrier. There's room in the market for a good sub as I have never heard one in a store I would buy. I like my own. Go see how mail order subs are doing. something Bag etc.
Want to make a mark by solving a problem? Look at speakers as a systems problem. Really quick you will see they have to be self powered. There is no way to attain real high end performance without having control of both the motor system and the driver system.
Think off the shelf DIY high end drivers are going to cut it? Nope. You are not going to sell anything if you are paying $300 for a tweeter. You are in a 500% markup business if really lucky. Scan Speak? That puts you ito very high end. People are not shelling out several thousand dollars mailorder without hearing them. That price range means really expensive finishes. Bump again. Go ask Wilson what he pays for a tweeter and for a box. Now go Ask Amar how he can put 9 $1.50 speakers in a box and get people to buy them for a grand.
Go look at some of the DIY designs, like the ones by John "Zaph" or Dr. Joe through Madisound. What do you think you know about speaker design they don't? Go read the papers in the ASAE from the likes of Klipsh, Heart, Small, Theil and so on.
You are going nowhere without serious publicity. That ain't cheap. They get paid if you succeed or not. So does your box builder. Selling to Europe? Take a look at ROHS paperwork. Electrical? CSA, UL. You need quality bragging rights, so proof of ISO standards is a must. How about that liability insurance when someone drops one on their foot and sues you for it being heavy? Stupid? Yea. Real? Yea.
OK, Go for it. That is what enterprise is all about. Do it now while you have nothing to lose. As we say in agile development, fail quick. That way you have more chances to get it right. You will fail insufferably several times and it will have nothing to do with your product.
BTW, I almost went down this path. I had a line designed, a few prototypes and two local stores ready to carry them. Good luck tapped me and my woofer supplier in Mexico went out of business preventing financial ruin on my part. 30 years later, I still build a few. I have not been able to build a better one than some I have bought, but I have built better than many I have heard.
Might ask Ohm how well mail order is doing. Or Cambridge. What do you know Marty or Henry don't? How about the 200 or so listed speaker companies in the Audio annual. It does not have all of them.
Now, go and DIY speakers for 20 or so years to learn the trade and earn your chops. You may get a hint at about the 50th pair. Get a real job, maybe for a driver manufacture, or how about the Canadian lab where they test speakers? A really basic design lab, like in your basement, can cost a hundred grand. This is business, not a hobby. I design and test in my home office with only a few thousand investment. It takes me months to do a half way design. Months more to tune it. You can't do business like that. Save all your money so you have enough to tease investment capital to loose a lot more. You know the saying, how to have a million bucks? Start with two. When you have your two year business plan with five year estimates, triple it. 90% of startups fail. Most were undercapitalized.
Mail order sub? No way. You have to make everything fit in a UPS box. 60Lbs max or you are talking common carrier. There's room in the market for a good sub as I have never heard one in a store I would buy. I like my own. Go see how mail order subs are doing. something Bag etc.
Want to make a mark by solving a problem? Look at speakers as a systems problem. Really quick you will see they have to be self powered. There is no way to attain real high end performance without having control of both the motor system and the driver system.
Think off the shelf DIY high end drivers are going to cut it? Nope. You are not going to sell anything if you are paying $300 for a tweeter. You are in a 500% markup business if really lucky. Scan Speak? That puts you ito very high end. People are not shelling out several thousand dollars mailorder without hearing them. That price range means really expensive finishes. Bump again. Go ask Wilson what he pays for a tweeter and for a box. Now go Ask Amar how he can put 9 $1.50 speakers in a box and get people to buy them for a grand.
Go look at some of the DIY designs, like the ones by John "Zaph" or Dr. Joe through Madisound. What do you think you know about speaker design they don't? Go read the papers in the ASAE from the likes of Klipsh, Heart, Small, Theil and so on.
You are going nowhere without serious publicity. That ain't cheap. They get paid if you succeed or not. So does your box builder. Selling to Europe? Take a look at ROHS paperwork. Electrical? CSA, UL. You need quality bragging rights, so proof of ISO standards is a must. How about that liability insurance when someone drops one on their foot and sues you for it being heavy? Stupid? Yea. Real? Yea.
OK, Go for it. That is what enterprise is all about. Do it now while you have nothing to lose. As we say in agile development, fail quick. That way you have more chances to get it right. You will fail insufferably several times and it will have nothing to do with your product.
BTW, I almost went down this path. I had a line designed, a few prototypes and two local stores ready to carry them. Good luck tapped me and my woofer supplier in Mexico went out of business preventing financial ruin on my part. 30 years later, I still build a few. I have not been able to build a better one than some I have bought, but I have built better than many I have heard.
OR ... you could get in touch with Clark Blumenstein and ask him for some pointers;
Blumenstein Ultra fi
Blumenstein Ultra fi
I thought unity audio is out of business.
You could look up Zu audio, and especially Tekton Design.
But there are some awesome pearls of wisdom in this thread. You have to know who you are selling to, what they own, what they want to spend. The average person buys the name, even when shown that product B sounds better and may be cheaper.
You will throw a lot of money at design just to get the experience to make something that sounds good. I believe the most sucessful little companies are started by ex-arpenters who get into making better sounding speakers.
But I'd give it a shot if I was independantly wealthy.
Norman
You could look up Zu audio, and especially Tekton Design.
But there are some awesome pearls of wisdom in this thread. You have to know who you are selling to, what they own, what they want to spend. The average person buys the name, even when shown that product B sounds better and may be cheaper.
You will throw a lot of money at design just to get the experience to make something that sounds good. I believe the most sucessful little companies are started by ex-arpenters who get into making better sounding speakers.
But I'd give it a shot if I was independantly wealthy.
Norman
Appears you are correct - the guy is selling of odds n ends on ebay.
And there is the sad sad moral of this story.........
I started a net based audio related business in the spring of 2001. I had several advantages. I already had a income, so didn't rely on the new business. I had great support from a industry insider who I met on line and sent a sample. His simple promotion on line got the ball rolling. After a period I drew tired of direct sales and set up a dealer network. There went 50% of the profit but it was better for me. I have some real advantages over the product you want to sell. Size, cost of time and materials, and ease of shipment.
I want to wish you good Luck if you decide to pursue this venture.
I want to wish you good Luck if you decide to pursue this venture.
Been there, done that. A long time ago I managed a commercial speaker company that had gone bankrupt and had been taken over by creditors. I was hired because I worked cheap. This company actually made a fine speaker, assembling its own woofer.
It was a heart-wrenching experience. Sleazy dealers, constant calls from suppliers we owed money to, a break-in at our factory where the thieves stole our test equipment and smashed the $800 dollar bottle of ferrofluid, abused speakers returned under warranty and ruthless competition all combined to make it one of those learning experiences that I would rather not relive.
Not that I'm trying to discourage you or anything...
It was a heart-wrenching experience. Sleazy dealers, constant calls from suppliers we owed money to, a break-in at our factory where the thieves stole our test equipment and smashed the $800 dollar bottle of ferrofluid, abused speakers returned under warranty and ruthless competition all combined to make it one of those learning experiences that I would rather not relive.
Not that I'm trying to discourage you or anything...
Ironic that so many keep mentioning good design and great sound yet one of the most financially successful companies in this area is............Bose. Hated pretty much universally by HiFi affectionados but can't keep the main stream folks with lotsa money and a desire to have high end stuff away.
Another thing I see mentioned is alot of money spent on labor, equipment etc. He mentioned 3 designs and 3 price points. If he keeps costs down as much as possible and does as much of the work as possible this will make all the difference.
Another thing I see mentioned is alot of money spent on labor, equipment etc. He mentioned 3 designs and 3 price points. If he keeps costs down as much as possible and does as much of the work as possible this will make all the difference.
I feel like there is a lot of knowledge in this thread, that I agree with for the most part, but none of it relates to the modern era. I think a young guy who knows how to use social media, online resources, new era designs might have a leg up on some of the experiences here... Just a thought.
To succeed in selling you need to either sell cheaper than anyone else or be in a niche market with something that isnt easy to copy or is copy protected.
I have tried selling all sorts of things. I couldnt compete with the chinese on power amps.
The only thing I sort of succeeded with was pcb design software which I wrote myself over a number of years but even that now has competition on ebay.
I have tried selling all sorts of things. I couldnt compete with the chinese on power amps.
The only thing I sort of succeeded with was pcb design software which I wrote myself over a number of years but even that now has competition on ebay.
I recall walking in the mall by the Bose store (whatever it was called), I didn't go inside but what I saw through the window and entrance reminded me of the Apple store (in the same mall) where it's all about "The User Experience," bla bla bla, the atmosphere of the store, how easy and "intuitive" the product is to operate and such. To be sure, sound quality is somewhere on the list of features (for both Bose and iPods), but it's not necessarily the top thing. I'm reminded of something Bill Gates once said about Microsoft products - he admitted they might not be the highest quality available, but they're "good enough" for most people.
Credibility and Passion
MikeLaplante,
Your path to credibility is a journey lead by passion.
Someone mentioned Zaph. I have read Zaph's posts for years and they ooze passion. I will listen to anything Zaph has to say because I sense his passion for his art. He has a knack for generously sharing some of the most valuable diy speaker information and experience available to a huge audience.
I have followed the progression of Tom Danley from his DIY subs to professionally built productions units. I am not sure if he or his company Danley Audio is very profitable, but I can smell the passion in every post that has detailed his (and his subwoofer's) evolution. He offered a kit very early in its development and his generosity in openly sharing and helping others has gained him celebrity.
In the headphone world, there is a similar story of Ray Samuels of highly respected Ray Samuels Audio. I followed his story and read about unbelievable sound and quality that he achieved in his products. I purchased one of his expensive headphone amplifiers. Some pointed out that he was tricking us out of our money. But, when I opened up the amplifier it was a work of art. A real beauty. Unmatched high standards of craftsmanship (and it sounded great to boot) that I will never be able to recreate. In craftsmanship alone, I felt that he had given me a bargain.
Three different stories of three very different audiophiles. Varying degrees of profit and direction amongst them. They all are brimming with passion with what they create whether they produce profit or not. When they speak, we listen. What all three have developed is credibility. I and many others would listen, follow, or work for any of the three in a heartbeat.
Good luck in life. I look forward to following your story.
MikeLaplante,
Your path to credibility is a journey lead by passion.
Someone mentioned Zaph. I have read Zaph's posts for years and they ooze passion. I will listen to anything Zaph has to say because I sense his passion for his art. He has a knack for generously sharing some of the most valuable diy speaker information and experience available to a huge audience.
I have followed the progression of Tom Danley from his DIY subs to professionally built productions units. I am not sure if he or his company Danley Audio is very profitable, but I can smell the passion in every post that has detailed his (and his subwoofer's) evolution. He offered a kit very early in its development and his generosity in openly sharing and helping others has gained him celebrity.
In the headphone world, there is a similar story of Ray Samuels of highly respected Ray Samuels Audio. I followed his story and read about unbelievable sound and quality that he achieved in his products. I purchased one of his expensive headphone amplifiers. Some pointed out that he was tricking us out of our money. But, when I opened up the amplifier it was a work of art. A real beauty. Unmatched high standards of craftsmanship (and it sounded great to boot) that I will never be able to recreate. In craftsmanship alone, I felt that he had given me a bargain.
Three different stories of three very different audiophiles. Varying degrees of profit and direction amongst them. They all are brimming with passion with what they create whether they produce profit or not. When they speak, we listen. What all three have developed is credibility. I and many others would listen, follow, or work for any of the three in a heartbeat.
Good luck in life. I look forward to following your story.
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Hi Mike,
Two and half years ago I had the same dream like yours.. the price of high SQ speakers are unbelievable, so my vision is to produce a loudspeaker that is affordable to many people without any compromise to the audiophile sound quality level. It is my dream that everyone can experience the true analogue sound quality in their living room without having to go through years of saving in order to buy a decent pair of high SQ loudspeakers. The question was "can we make high SQ speakers as cheaper as possible?". So I approached a friend who has 30 year+ experience in custom passive XO, mostly for car audio and asked him to join the project. This guy is very good, he custom-made the passive xo for my car audio, a 4-way system + sub, and the result is amazing considering the non-expensive drivers and components selection. Shortly we sat down to design our prototype and calculate the cost.. took about 4-5 months and by Feb 2010 Analogue Miracle was born..
The concept is similar to yours, try to market the product through internet.. but we do not hold any inventory, except for the prototype or demo units, as we build by order.. it's a DIY minded.. Low cost is good in business, but the next valid questions were what advantages we could provide to customer, what differentiate us from others in the same price range, how to compete, how we establish our name? I tried to picture myself as a customer wanting to buy speakers, what would I look for? Is it the price? The look? They are valid consideration, but what most? The most is actually speakers that can interact well with my existing CDP and power amps, the best mate for my system, able to produce the sound I want to hear, according to my own taste, not the salesman taste or others... hey, can we do that? Yes we can, we have done this in car audio, why can't we now?
So the advantage we offer is we will build the speakers to perfectly match your existing systems and to your own personal taste of sound. This becoming interesting to both us and customers, as involvement of the customer in the tuning process is then important and critical. We are happy to satisfy the customer and they are happy as they don't have to shop around from one store to another trying to find what speakers best matched to their system at home.. with possible disappointment of buying wrong speakers, sound good in the showroom but not good when hook them up at home. We also provide service of tuning the speakers at their home considering the impact of room acoustic to the sound.. For out of town order, we ask them to send in their system for tuning purpose.. it has to be tuned according to their response and character.. if necessary we are willing to travel as long they pay for the cost.. In short, we do not only offer product with competitive price, we also offer service most manufactured speakers don't provide..
It is now running well, profitable although not huge, but so far is good, considering just 2 years in business.. we have been able to sell an average 15 units a year.. and most of them are the 4-way floorstand, which cost you less than $1000 a pair, a real bargain. Other products are 2 way bookshelf and 3 way floorstand.. We also have made by order more expensive speakers using scanspeak drivers.. the most expensive we have made so far was a 2 way bookshelf with SS Illuminator 18Wu and beryllium tweeter, with high grade XO components.. It was a special order by a serius audioholic, cost him about $5K..
some pics:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description-197.html
Well Mike, I hope my experience will encourage you to pursue your dream and inspire you to find the concept that best works for the capacity you have and in your specific market environment.. look into the local market first, do research of customer behaviours and needs, then respond accordingly.. Enjoy and good luck!!
Two and half years ago I had the same dream like yours.. the price of high SQ speakers are unbelievable, so my vision is to produce a loudspeaker that is affordable to many people without any compromise to the audiophile sound quality level. It is my dream that everyone can experience the true analogue sound quality in their living room without having to go through years of saving in order to buy a decent pair of high SQ loudspeakers. The question was "can we make high SQ speakers as cheaper as possible?". So I approached a friend who has 30 year+ experience in custom passive XO, mostly for car audio and asked him to join the project. This guy is very good, he custom-made the passive xo for my car audio, a 4-way system + sub, and the result is amazing considering the non-expensive drivers and components selection. Shortly we sat down to design our prototype and calculate the cost.. took about 4-5 months and by Feb 2010 Analogue Miracle was born..
The concept is similar to yours, try to market the product through internet.. but we do not hold any inventory, except for the prototype or demo units, as we build by order.. it's a DIY minded.. Low cost is good in business, but the next valid questions were what advantages we could provide to customer, what differentiate us from others in the same price range, how to compete, how we establish our name? I tried to picture myself as a customer wanting to buy speakers, what would I look for? Is it the price? The look? They are valid consideration, but what most? The most is actually speakers that can interact well with my existing CDP and power amps, the best mate for my system, able to produce the sound I want to hear, according to my own taste, not the salesman taste or others... hey, can we do that? Yes we can, we have done this in car audio, why can't we now?
So the advantage we offer is we will build the speakers to perfectly match your existing systems and to your own personal taste of sound. This becoming interesting to both us and customers, as involvement of the customer in the tuning process is then important and critical. We are happy to satisfy the customer and they are happy as they don't have to shop around from one store to another trying to find what speakers best matched to their system at home.. with possible disappointment of buying wrong speakers, sound good in the showroom but not good when hook them up at home. We also provide service of tuning the speakers at their home considering the impact of room acoustic to the sound.. For out of town order, we ask them to send in their system for tuning purpose.. it has to be tuned according to their response and character.. if necessary we are willing to travel as long they pay for the cost.. In short, we do not only offer product with competitive price, we also offer service most manufactured speakers don't provide..
It is now running well, profitable although not huge, but so far is good, considering just 2 years in business.. we have been able to sell an average 15 units a year.. and most of them are the 4-way floorstand, which cost you less than $1000 a pair, a real bargain. Other products are 2 way bookshelf and 3 way floorstand.. We also have made by order more expensive speakers using scanspeak drivers.. the most expensive we have made so far was a 2 way bookshelf with SS Illuminator 18Wu and beryllium tweeter, with high grade XO components.. It was a special order by a serius audioholic, cost him about $5K..
some pics:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description-197.html
Well Mike, I hope my experience will encourage you to pursue your dream and inspire you to find the concept that best works for the capacity you have and in your specific market environment.. look into the local market first, do research of customer behaviours and needs, then respond accordingly.. Enjoy and good luck!!
Most of the niche markets left in this Industry is pretty filled with DIY type to small and medium sized biz.
The active speakers are not very popular for the HT unless you want to run a power cord going to each speaker. The active speaker already has bigger demand for the sound recording, and PA applications but the demand for the home audio would be small.
Big spenders don't likely want full active powered speakers because of the Class D integrated amps for the mid and tweeter. Real spenders want to play with amps and preamp and they probably won't like the idea of the built in amps.
But I think the full powered active speakers may be gaining ground for Digital Direct or small office rigs.
I think going to China and contract to build is probably best option but the QC might be a problem. And when QC a problem, you end up losing money! And of course, this cost our domestics production ability.
Just some thoughts.
The active speakers are not very popular for the HT unless you want to run a power cord going to each speaker. The active speaker already has bigger demand for the sound recording, and PA applications but the demand for the home audio would be small.
Big spenders don't likely want full active powered speakers because of the Class D integrated amps for the mid and tweeter. Real spenders want to play with amps and preamp and they probably won't like the idea of the built in amps.
But I think the full powered active speakers may be gaining ground for Digital Direct or small office rigs.
I think going to China and contract to build is probably best option but the QC might be a problem. And when QC a problem, you end up losing money! And of course, this cost our domestics production ability.
Just some thoughts.
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see this is what I'm talking about, starting out small and growing, most poeple seam to hear the word "company" and think of the big boys, there are plenty of speaker companies out there that people have probably never heard of that are doing fine, maybe we should use "speaker business" instead of "speaker company".
Here's to ya beneeh... keep growing!
Charles,
Good Question! I always wonder why no one makes the full active speakers with Class A option. Instead of Class AB, I guess most mainstream will go to class D because of cost, footprint and heat?
Does Meridian use AB in their active DSP speakers?
I guess I should explore more options and start a thread on this topics.
Good Question! I always wonder why no one makes the full active speakers with Class A option. Instead of Class AB, I guess most mainstream will go to class D because of cost, footprint and heat?
Does Meridian use AB in their active DSP speakers?
I guess I should explore more options and start a thread on this topics.
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they do, ATC have made their name on this. they also have some AB, but their statement line has always been and continues to be pure class A
in fact they make the biggest class A amp i've ever seen. edit: oh crap, even theyve sold out, the line seems to be A/B now too. probably deep class A for anywhere you would use such a behemoth, but all the same. well they used to be discrete class A anyway and i'm sure you could still order a bespoke spec amp from them like this. they still do build to order if you have the bugsy $$$$$
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