Toole's research shows that side wall reflections are beneficial for soundstage & image envelopment.
In this case with the speaker placement, the walls are too far away anyway.
Stage depth needs to be on the albumn to start with. Then the system needs to preserve phase information and subtle detail way down into the signal.
Do you have a mechanics stethescope? Take one and listen to all of your cabinet walls to see what they are emitting sound wise.
Tinitus idea is also very good... hopefully will allow you to push up and simplify the XO to make it less noticiable.
dave
Thank you all for the input.
At this point I need to continue working within the limitations of my current system/room configuration (read WAF limit).
When i download (rarely) its nearly always WAV or FLAC at worst that has been verified as a rip from an original CD. Failing that it goes on my to buy shortlist.
I do have an original Kind of Blue CD so will use that as ref for the time being but have played it to death
These speakers do seem to obey the equilateral triangle rule fairly closely and generally sound better proportioned with only 2/3% of toe-in.
I will try reversing both high/low phase (all drivers still in phase) and report back.
I have no experience with changing mains phase so would appreciate any input on how that may be done (ALL OFF at switch box of course)
Cheers guys
Dean
At this point I need to continue working within the limitations of my current system/room configuration (read WAF limit).
When i download (rarely) its nearly always WAV or FLAC at worst that has been verified as a rip from an original CD. Failing that it goes on my to buy shortlist.
I do have an original Kind of Blue CD so will use that as ref for the time being but have played it to death
These speakers do seem to obey the equilateral triangle rule fairly closely and generally sound better proportioned with only 2/3% of toe-in.
I will try reversing both high/low phase (all drivers still in phase) and report back.
I have no experience with changing mains phase so would appreciate any input on how that may be done (ALL OFF at switch box of course)
Cheers guys
Dean
At the moment my right speaker is 1200mm from the nearest wall whilst the left is almost 3m away.
I have never used a mechanics stethescope, are they like a doctors? Do you have a link to an example?
The cabs are 32mm MDF with reasonable internal bracing and Automotive deadening (Bitumen) an all internal surfaces at about 3mm thick. I then have 30mm thick open-cell acoustic foam on all sides except the front panel and 10mm thick teased dacron behind the drivers and rolled up to an 80mm thick pad in the bottom of the cab on top of the 30mmm foam for the primary standing wave.
Tap test = pretty good
Of the 100 odd Cd's I have listened too the stage depth seems to change very little.
I will start the hunt for a small set of monitors to borrow for ref..
Cheers
Dean
I have never used a mechanics stethescope, are they like a doctors? Do you have a link to an example?
The cabs are 32mm MDF with reasonable internal bracing and Automotive deadening (Bitumen) an all internal surfaces at about 3mm thick. I then have 30mm thick open-cell acoustic foam on all sides except the front panel and 10mm thick teased dacron behind the drivers and rolled up to an 80mm thick pad in the bottom of the cab on top of the 30mmm foam for the primary standing wave.
Tap test = pretty good
Of the 100 odd Cd's I have listened too the stage depth seems to change very little.
I will start the hunt for a small set of monitors to borrow for ref..
Cheers
Dean
And try reversed phase on amps
Mains phase on mains connection, on each electronic component is done simply by turning the connector
Unless you use 3-legs connectors, then its complicated
Biwire
Its not doing you any good
Why
All drivers have a common "ground" connection
And xover also have some interaction
Think of "ground" in any amp
Noone would dream of having "ground" placed 5 feet away from amp
If you insist on this kind of thing, best place your xover close to amp with a single short connection
Then you will have natural biwire between drivers and xover
And very thick wires, I would avoid that too
Hmm not much to say that hasn't already been said. You said LR4 acoustic slope so does that mean you are using a lower order and combining it with the driver to get LR4 effectively? I think I would tweak the crossover.
Maybe try moving in closer than an equilateral triangle with them toed in.
Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix Experience is a great studio album that manipulates stage depth a lot. Not as holistic as a jazz recording but I find it's easier to judge a speakers capabilities with sounds that move in depth and aren't stationary. Stockhausen was the first to do a lot of stuff like this and I like to use his stuff to test out systems imaging but it's not for everyone - it's like listening to test tones on drugs.
Maybe try moving in closer than an equilateral triangle with them toed in.
Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix Experience is a great studio album that manipulates stage depth a lot. Not as holistic as a jazz recording but I find it's easier to judge a speakers capabilities with sounds that move in depth and aren't stationary. Stockhausen was the first to do a lot of stuff like this and I like to use his stuff to test out systems imaging but it's not for everyone - it's like listening to test tones on drugs.
I am in Australia so most of our equipment uses 3 pin IEC connections.
I have 2 x 1.5m of cable running from speakers A + B on each side to XO box (seperate Hi/Low) then 1 foot of cable from box to speaker terminals. This was only done for ease of XO mods and not SQ reasons. I will try removing 1 of the primary runs and join Hi/low input at XO box and report back
The XO's are 12dB elec low and 18dB elec high combined with the drivers to achieve 24dB hi/low @ 1700Hz
Dean
I have 2 x 1.5m of cable running from speakers A + B on each side to XO box (seperate Hi/Low) then 1 foot of cable from box to speaker terminals. This was only done for ease of XO mods and not SQ reasons. I will try removing 1 of the primary runs and join Hi/low input at XO box and report back
The XO's are 12dB elec low and 18dB elec high combined with the drivers to achieve 24dB hi/low @ 1700Hz
Dean
Most likely the speakers or the height of the speakers in relation to your ears. The more you get them off the wall and the more the two speakers match the better the phantom center will be. Like others have said you want a wide polar response that is somewhat matched in the crossover region. You might be getting a huge jump in the polar response from the mids to the tweeter.
There was someone on another forum who swore that you get the best imaging when you sit right up against a wall like you are doing. I have never tried it so I can't really say but I usually like to sit away from boundaries.
There was someone on another forum who swore that you get the best imaging when you sit right up against a wall like you are doing. I have never tried it so I can't really say but I usually like to sit away from boundaries.
So Dean, is this like a lack of super fantastic imaging? Or is more like "I think my speakers are broken" lack of imaging? Is this your first DIY set of speakers? What other speakers have you owned and how did they compare to these?
Just trying to get a better idea of what's going on here.
I must say......I am intrigued.
Just trying to get a better idea of what's going on here.
I must say......I am intrigued.
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Listening position is too close to the rear wall, this is why you lack depth - I have done this experiment at home - however I am lucky and I could use longitudal placement Second, at 100hz you have a wavelenght of 3,4m - more than the space between you and the speakers. The Marantz cd player uses a 1-bit DAC ( correct me if i am wrong ) - it should be described as a 24-bit delta sigma, however it is a 1-bit. They always lack depth when compared to multibit dac chips.
Second, at 100hz you have a wavelenght of 3,4m - more than the space between you and the speakers. The Marantz cd player uses a 1-bit DAC ( correct me if i am wrong ) - it should be described as a 24-bit delta sigma, however it is a 1-bit. They always lack depth when compared to multibit dac chips.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Amazon.com: Lisle 52500 Mechanic's Stethoscope: Automotive
A lot cheaper than my local auto parts store.
Lots of MDF and then the bituminum reduces the panel resonance. You could have problems with low level stored energy continuosly oozing out of the cabinet burying the low levelstuff.
Often a salesmans tool with little constructive feedback. Should be very high frequency -- best to use something solid (not your knuckle)
dave
Haha, thanks for injecting a little humor Q, always appreciated.
This is the "lack of super fantastic imaging" thread to be sure. I mentioned briefly earlier that the detail and bandwidth is great and can be compared to a friends V1 Vaf-DCX's. Perhaps not as detailed in the bottom end but certainly not lacking. So nothing broken, but having heard a small set of Dantec's connected to some tube monoblocks a few years ago I really fell in love with the holographic 3D imaging sound and have been chasing it ever since.
Am i unhappy with the sound. Definitely Not, they are allot of fun and i have been able to re-experience my entire music collection.
The improvements I have made today. Reverse the polarity at the amp and bring speakers 200 mm further into the room. Bring my listening chair 500mm from the rear wall. I seriously have no idea why my partner has let me take over the entire lounge, it must be love.
The sound stage has improved by about 20%. It still doesn't have the pinpoint placement of the small monitors but is getting closer. I have also found a local DIY-audio club that meets once a month and am planing to perhaps convince one of the guys there to take me/them on as a charity case and help me test/design some proper crossovers. Should be an interesting learning curve. Having built a dozen car audio systems and 4 sets of home units with varying success it seems that the electrical side is really holding me back and is something I will have to commit to if I want to go any further.
Sorry about the long post.
Thank you all for all your help on this thread and others.
Keep rockin, from Dean and his lack of super fantastic imaging thread.
PS. Feel free to add any more suggestions that come to mind, its helped a heap so far.
This is the "lack of super fantastic imaging" thread to be sure. I mentioned briefly earlier that the detail and bandwidth is great and can be compared to a friends V1 Vaf-DCX's. Perhaps not as detailed in the bottom end but certainly not lacking. So nothing broken, but having heard a small set of Dantec's connected to some tube monoblocks a few years ago I really fell in love with the holographic 3D imaging sound and have been chasing it ever since.
Am i unhappy with the sound. Definitely Not, they are allot of fun and i have been able to re-experience my entire music collection.
The improvements I have made today. Reverse the polarity at the amp and bring speakers 200 mm further into the room. Bring my listening chair 500mm from the rear wall. I seriously have no idea why my partner has let me take over the entire lounge, it must be love.
The sound stage has improved by about 20%. It still doesn't have the pinpoint placement of the small monitors but is getting closer. I have also found a local DIY-audio club that meets once a month and am planing to perhaps convince one of the guys there to take me/them on as a charity case and help me test/design some proper crossovers. Should be an interesting learning curve. Having built a dozen car audio systems and 4 sets of home units with varying success it seems that the electrical side is really holding me back and is something I will have to commit to if I want to go any further.
Sorry about the long post.
Thank you all for all your help on this thread and others.
Keep rockin, from Dean and his lack of super fantastic imaging thread.
PS. Feel free to add any more suggestions that come to mind, its helped a heap so far.
Do not look at these reviews, all is paid and written by people who are impressed more by the way something looks than it sounds.
I have another suggestion, which is not relevant directly to this case, but may help. Troels had a project with the SS 18W and a SS dome tweeter. He described something very unusual - when he has used the Parallel crossover the stage has dissapeared and it has become flat ( per his words ) and with the series it has changed completely. It sounds a little weird, but if you have gone with a parallel you may want to experiment with this.
This is absolutely a loudspeaker/room issue. Can you get hold of a measurement mike and software to see what the polar response of the speakers looks like? You may be dealing with some major midrange humps, which tend to push everything forward.
Your room and setup are less than ideal. Your chair is right against the back wall and the speakers are too close to the wall behind them. Electronics can affect staging (you mentioned the tube equipment and sound it afforded) is true and can affect your perceptions. A very good tubed amp/preamp does have a much more expanded soundstage vs SS as a rule, IME. This one of the reasons that i prefer tubed equipment over SS. It has a much more enveloping sound I(more 3-D).
I do not think that electronics will fix the issues that I see in your photo though. If you can, try setting everything up on the short wall and allow some breathing room behind the speakers and your seated location. Proper room damping/diffusion will always improve you overall level of sound quality, but wives sometimes balk at this in the home.
Do not give up. Its all about finding a synergy with the room and your equipment.
I do not think that electronics will fix the issues that I see in your photo though. If you can, try setting everything up on the short wall and allow some breathing room behind the speakers and your seated location. Proper room damping/diffusion will always improve you overall level of sound quality, but wives sometimes balk at this in the home.
Do not give up. Its all about finding a synergy with the room and your equipment.
The Behringer ECM8000 microphone (BEHRINGER: ECM8000) is very good for less than $100.00 USD. They are likley available down under I would think.
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