Is there some one that has build a speaker unit from scratch. I really like to get some more ideas..... I have started a project se: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/225058-dream-mine.html but there is a lot more I would like to know and one way is buy experimenting. But if there is some one with has experience in building speakers, I would like to learn more.
Hi,
Unless you have a radical and brilliant alternative to current driver designs,
that works, there seems very little point in building random poor drivers.
Generally speaking, most of it has been done before, whilst reinventing
the wheel may be interesting, it takes a long time to discover the stuff
that is built into decent modern drivers, or isn't for cheap nasty ones.
rgds, sreten.
Unless you have a radical and brilliant alternative to current driver designs,
that works, there seems very little point in building random poor drivers.
Generally speaking, most of it has been done before, whilst reinventing
the wheel may be interesting, it takes a long time to discover the stuff
that is built into decent modern drivers, or isn't for cheap nasty ones.
rgds, sreten.
Frank,
I do build speakers from scratch but it isn't a simple endeavor. Some components I wouldn't bother with unless I had something that needed to be out of the ordinary. These are things like speaker frames, surround, spider, dustcap. But that doesn't mean that you can just use anything or as Sreten said why bother. I have my voicecoils wound for me by Precision Econowind and have to specify all the details of their construction. The cone material is of my own design and development and this is what led me to develop the entire speaker as I had created a new material that was better than anything else I know of. But even this is not an easy task. I not only had to develop the material but also the tooling to produce the cone. Unless you have a machine shop or access to one that could get quite expensive in itself. I am in the middle of a redesign to create a new packaged housing, a molded housing that I will make myself. I have the molding equipment to do that. That is going to require a new surround that doesn't exist and again more tooling. So as you can see it is not an easy thing to do. If you just wanted to build a speaker to see how it all works you could try and get samples of parts and put one together yourself. China is very cooperative in giving small samples if they think you are a serious developer. But even assembling the speaker will take tooling. Tooling for centering the voicecoil in the gap, for attaching the cone to former joint, attaching the surround to the cone, etc. If you want to PM me go ahead. I will tell what I can, but it is not for the weak of heart, or something that is easy to do. Then comes the testing, more money for equipment....
I do build speakers from scratch but it isn't a simple endeavor. Some components I wouldn't bother with unless I had something that needed to be out of the ordinary. These are things like speaker frames, surround, spider, dustcap. But that doesn't mean that you can just use anything or as Sreten said why bother. I have my voicecoils wound for me by Precision Econowind and have to specify all the details of their construction. The cone material is of my own design and development and this is what led me to develop the entire speaker as I had created a new material that was better than anything else I know of. But even this is not an easy task. I not only had to develop the material but also the tooling to produce the cone. Unless you have a machine shop or access to one that could get quite expensive in itself. I am in the middle of a redesign to create a new packaged housing, a molded housing that I will make myself. I have the molding equipment to do that. That is going to require a new surround that doesn't exist and again more tooling. So as you can see it is not an easy thing to do. If you just wanted to build a speaker to see how it all works you could try and get samples of parts and put one together yourself. China is very cooperative in giving small samples if they think you are a serious developer. But even assembling the speaker will take tooling. Tooling for centering the voicecoil in the gap, for attaching the cone to former joint, attaching the surround to the cone, etc. If you want to PM me go ahead. I will tell what I can, but it is not for the weak of heart, or something that is easy to do. Then comes the testing, more money for equipment....
Well, I make my own speakers from scratch.
I mean *hardcore* scratch, start with 18Ga cold rolled steel sheet, 1/4" to 3/8" SAE1010 flat steel, 18 ft long 10L14 bar, the works.
Work is 90% metallurgical, 10% what anybody thinks of as "speaker building".
Have already made thousands of speakers, both for personal use, selling to the public ( or other guitar amp makers) and exporting.
Don't have my own hydraulic presses, rent shop time at any convenient car parts maker.
Also sold my lathe, found guys who charge me less than paying a salary for a lathe guy.
The job also includes spot resistance soldering, galvanizing (preferred) or phosphatizing/powder painting , magnetizing (I have 2 machines, I'm building a 3rd one).
The actual speaker finishing (cone, suspension, VC, etc. ) takes only 20 minutes per unit, including soldering, applying edge, dustcap, etc.
I mean *hardcore* scratch, start with 18Ga cold rolled steel sheet, 1/4" to 3/8" SAE1010 flat steel, 18 ft long 10L14 bar, the works.
Work is 90% metallurgical, 10% what anybody thinks of as "speaker building".
Have already made thousands of speakers, both for personal use, selling to the public ( or other guitar amp makers) and exporting.
Don't have my own hydraulic presses, rent shop time at any convenient car parts maker.
Also sold my lathe, found guys who charge me less than paying a salary for a lathe guy.
The job also includes spot resistance soldering, galvanizing (preferred) or phosphatizing/powder painting , magnetizing (I have 2 machines, I'm building a 3rd one).
The actual speaker finishing (cone, suspension, VC, etc. ) takes only 20 minutes per unit, including soldering, applying edge, dustcap, etc.
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JMFahey,
I guess you are as hardcore as I am then. I also do the motor structure from raw steel but I don't make my own frame as I found some that fit the bill and they are so cheap from China no reason to do that. I do have my magnets magnetized before I get them as you can not magnetize them once the assembly is put together, not with the design I use. And you are right about the machining. Sometimes it is cheaper to have the Chinese make something and supply the steel than it cost just for the machining here in the US. 1008 steel is not something that is readily available here in the US anymore, it is considered junk steel here. I have used 1215 steel that has less carbon than 1008 anyway. But besides the magnetic circuit I do make the cones myself, that is a large reason that my speakers are very different than any other. I assume since your speakers are for guitar that you are using a paper cone. Glad I am not the only one this crazy.
Steven
I guess you are as hardcore as I am then. I also do the motor structure from raw steel but I don't make my own frame as I found some that fit the bill and they are so cheap from China no reason to do that. I do have my magnets magnetized before I get them as you can not magnetize them once the assembly is put together, not with the design I use. And you are right about the machining. Sometimes it is cheaper to have the Chinese make something and supply the steel than it cost just for the machining here in the US. 1008 steel is not something that is readily available here in the US anymore, it is considered junk steel here. I have used 1215 steel that has less carbon than 1008 anyway. But besides the magnetic circuit I do make the cones myself, that is a large reason that my speakers are very different than any other. I assume since your speakers are for guitar that you are using a paper cone. Glad I am not the only one this crazy.
Steven
sreten,
I can't disagree with you at all. But it is the little things that make the difference in how a speaker sounds. I agree that any science or math major could understand how the device works on a simple basis it is all in the littlest details why one speaker sounds different than another. As simple as things like the adhesive you use or the former material the voicecoil is wound on. It has been a hundred years of development and we still don't have a perfect reproducer. I think that is what makes the challenge worth it for me. I hate to just make what someone else has already done.
Steven
I can't disagree with you at all. But it is the little things that make the difference in how a speaker sounds. I agree that any science or math major could understand how the device works on a simple basis it is all in the littlest details why one speaker sounds different than another. As simple as things like the adhesive you use or the former material the voicecoil is wound on. It has been a hundred years of development and we still don't have a perfect reproducer. I think that is what makes the challenge worth it for me. I hate to just make what someone else has already done.
Steven
xrk,
I have never seen the exact process of the paper cone production but you are correct that there are many steps in the process. I would have to say that paper is probably a bit of misnomer, there is more than just paper in the cones. I know that some manufacturers use what is called reticulated fibers in the blend and I think they also can add cotton and other fibers to change the properties of the final product. That would be one of the oldest developmental areas of loudspeaker construction. Nobody I know would say that the process could not be changed or improved, that would discount any newer materials you could add to the mix. I personally don't work with paper cones, I leave that for other more traditional manufacturers. Isn't science fun.....
I have never seen the exact process of the paper cone production but you are correct that there are many steps in the process. I would have to say that paper is probably a bit of misnomer, there is more than just paper in the cones. I know that some manufacturers use what is called reticulated fibers in the blend and I think they also can add cotton and other fibers to change the properties of the final product. That would be one of the oldest developmental areas of loudspeaker construction. Nobody I know would say that the process could not be changed or improved, that would discount any newer materials you could add to the mix. I personally don't work with paper cones, I leave that for other more traditional manufacturers. Isn't science fun.....
Cool thread. 
I use paper cones, nowadays imported from China.
For the record, I *have* made my paper cones , but quality was very poor.
Best sounding were those where I started with a flat piece of similar to business card cardboard, cut it in the proper shape, then soaked it and then pressed between male and female Aluminum dies.
Similar to Jensen "seamed cone" guitar speakers.
The cone worked, but self destructed quickly, I'm certain because it was regular cardboard.
Then I made a wirescreen mold, similar to what "art recycled" paper makers use.
Met a limited success in (then unavailable in Argentina) 15" cones but sound was very dull.
They were soft, thick and spongy.
Later I learnt I needed an extra step, pressing the cone between male/female dies and drying it with superheated (200 ºC) steam, so it comes out of the die dry, thin and hard.
Mine were uncomfortably similar to *thick* recycled toilet paper or egg cartons (very similar technology).
When I get a camera I'll post a picture of a home made 15" cone, I have a few remaining.
Yes, the paper mix is a "witches' brew", I had to spy a guy who made them commercially but kept everything very very secret.
He mixed what looks like dirty water, he used an old cast iron bathtub, no kidding, and he dropped there "wood paste", a brown stuff which comes in "bricks" and is the base material to make brown paper bags and such, plus dirty white "long fiber" (probably crushed cotton rags) plus some kind of water based glue plus some "secret additives" which I guess included some kind of gelatin or animal glue, also a little glycerin to keep it "wet" and flexible even on a hot dry day (or in the sun) plus the universal dye: smoke black, which is preferred because it's very black, *light* and stable.
Otherwise cones would be same colour as cheap box cardboard.
So, it *can* be done, but worth pursuing only to set up a small factory and sell them.
As of crazyness, it's not that bad if it's the only way to get something otherwise unavailable
I started making Guitar amps in Argentina in 1969, and Importing was blocked by lots of red tape and high tariff walls , so if you wanted something, you had to make it ... which is good.
Lots of small factories everywhere, that's why I could get in direct contact with people who could make special things for me.
As in: car parts stampers who agreed to stamp frames for me, using combinations of dies they already had (in fact, my first 15" frames were based on Citroën wheel caps), or a grocer scale maker who cut and bent my chassis or paint makers who mixed small batches (5 gallons) of special paint or adhesives or cone edge doping , or a pot maker who made special curve or value ones in small 200 or 300 unit orders, etc.
It was a tinkerer's paradise!!
Unfortunately, most now have sold their machinery and simply import Chinese stuff with their own brand stamped.
And we lost 80% (or more) of Industrial workplaces.
I'm one of the very few who keeps manufacturing in small scale, but most of my ex colleagues now drive a taxi, or have a small convenience store or ice cream parlor or a Burger/Hot Dog place or whatever.
And If I had to start now, I don't think it would be possible.
I use paper cones, nowadays imported from China.
For the record, I *have* made my paper cones , but quality was very poor.
Best sounding were those where I started with a flat piece of similar to business card cardboard, cut it in the proper shape, then soaked it and then pressed between male and female Aluminum dies.
Similar to Jensen "seamed cone" guitar speakers.
The cone worked, but self destructed quickly, I'm certain because it was regular cardboard.
Then I made a wirescreen mold, similar to what "art recycled" paper makers use.
Met a limited success in (then unavailable in Argentina) 15" cones but sound was very dull.
They were soft, thick and spongy.
Later I learnt I needed an extra step, pressing the cone between male/female dies and drying it with superheated (200 ºC) steam, so it comes out of the die dry, thin and hard.
Mine were uncomfortably similar to *thick* recycled toilet paper or egg cartons (very similar technology).
When I get a camera I'll post a picture of a home made 15" cone, I have a few remaining.
Yes, the paper mix is a "witches' brew", I had to spy a guy who made them commercially but kept everything very very secret.
He mixed what looks like dirty water, he used an old cast iron bathtub, no kidding, and he dropped there "wood paste", a brown stuff which comes in "bricks" and is the base material to make brown paper bags and such, plus dirty white "long fiber" (probably crushed cotton rags) plus some kind of water based glue plus some "secret additives" which I guess included some kind of gelatin or animal glue, also a little glycerin to keep it "wet" and flexible even on a hot dry day (or in the sun) plus the universal dye: smoke black, which is preferred because it's very black, *light* and stable.
Otherwise cones would be same colour as cheap box cardboard.
So, it *can* be done, but worth pursuing only to set up a small factory and sell them.
As of crazyness, it's not that bad if it's the only way to get something otherwise unavailable
I started making Guitar amps in Argentina in 1969, and Importing was blocked by lots of red tape and high tariff walls , so if you wanted something, you had to make it ... which is good.
Lots of small factories everywhere, that's why I could get in direct contact with people who could make special things for me.
As in: car parts stampers who agreed to stamp frames for me, using combinations of dies they already had (in fact, my first 15" frames were based on Citroën wheel caps), or a grocer scale maker who cut and bent my chassis or paint makers who mixed small batches (5 gallons) of special paint or adhesives or cone edge doping , or a pot maker who made special curve or value ones in small 200 or 300 unit orders, etc.
It was a tinkerer's paradise!!
Unfortunately, most now have sold their machinery and simply import Chinese stuff with their own brand stamped.
And we lost 80% (or more) of Industrial workplaces.
I'm one of the very few who keeps manufacturing in small scale, but most of my ex colleagues now drive a taxi, or have a small convenience store or ice cream parlor or a Burger/Hot Dog place or whatever.
And If I had to start now, I don't think it would be possible.
Hi to all
Glad to see so many replays, thanks
As you can see I am doing the speaker a bit different, I also want it to be a full-rang unit. For now I only made one prototype and I am amazed how it sound, but of course I will be making another one soon. I did get the magnet and coil from a Monarco SPH 170 C the magnet system is modified with a Faraday ring, and I did manage to skip the spider “simpler is better” that is my believe.
Is there some one of you that has experience in building your own full-range unit, and is there other ways to improve the magnetic-motor, than adding a Faraday ring...I know I can use different kinde of magnetic material.
I am building them for my self and not for commercial purpose use. Some times you need to do some crazy thing, to unlearn what you have been told, not could bee done. That is my motto.
Glad to see so many replays, thanks
As you can see I am doing the speaker a bit different, I also want it to be a full-rang unit. For now I only made one prototype and I am amazed how it sound, but of course I will be making another one soon. I did get the magnet and coil from a Monarco SPH 170 C the magnet system is modified with a Faraday ring, and I did manage to skip the spider “simpler is better” that is my believe.
Is there some one of you that has experience in building your own full-range unit, and is there other ways to improve the magnetic-motor, than adding a Faraday ring...I know I can use different kinde of magnetic material.
I am building them for my self and not for commercial purpose use. Some times you need to do some crazy thing, to unlearn what you have been told, not could bee done. That is my motto.
I would buy a big fat Nd magnet, several and place multiple voice coils along membrane. I think from the planar speaker forums, you don't want a rectangle as it has undesirable standing wave modes. Make it a slight trapezoid and reinforce it with thin aluminum foil bonded on with varnish to stiffen. Probably 3 voice coil and magnets along length. I am just thinking aloud here.
Looks like fun and wish you luck.
Hi xrk971, I am glad if I has inspired you...
Your absolutely correct, I need to have a non rectangle membrane. I use depron as material for my membrane is has a high degree of damping and works great. I might try to do a "normal" cone with it some time, but for now I have my work cut out for me. I have worked with fiberglass and carbonfiber so it might be worth to try that.
Your absolutely correct, I need to have a non rectangle membrane. I use depron as material for my membrane is has a high degree of damping and works great. I might try to do a "normal" cone with it some time, but for now I have my work cut out for me. I have worked with fiberglass and carbonfiber so it might be worth to try that.
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Frank,
I helped a friend who was working on a small desktop flat panel speaker and the diaphragm was made of Kapton. It isn't an easy material to work with as it doesn't like to be folded or bent but it can be done. I am not familiar with the Depron but perhaps they are similar. Part of the secret to making it sound better was to make sure that the voicecoil was offset from the middle to have different path lengths to the edges to minimize standing waves in the diaphragm. I think that shape was more rectangular but with rounded corners. I never heard the final device myself but my friend who I consulted to said it was decent for an inexpensive speaker.
Steven
I helped a friend who was working on a small desktop flat panel speaker and the diaphragm was made of Kapton. It isn't an easy material to work with as it doesn't like to be folded or bent but it can be done. I am not familiar with the Depron but perhaps they are similar. Part of the secret to making it sound better was to make sure that the voicecoil was offset from the middle to have different path lengths to the edges to minimize standing waves in the diaphragm. I think that shape was more rectangular but with rounded corners. I never heard the final device myself but my friend who I consulted to said it was decent for an inexpensive speaker.
Steven
Frank,
The most common steel to use in the magnetic circuit is 1008 steel. Here in the US that is very hard to find and you can substitute 1215 steel and have similar properties of very low carbon content. I best steels are called electrical steel and these are very low carbon and other trace elements are controlled also. I think here in the US a company named Carpenter Steel has these materials. Good luck with your project.
Steven
The most common steel to use in the magnetic circuit is 1008 steel. Here in the US that is very hard to find and you can substitute 1215 steel and have similar properties of very low carbon content. I best steels are called electrical steel and these are very low carbon and other trace elements are controlled also. I think here in the US a company named Carpenter Steel has these materials. Good luck with your project.
Steven
For the center pole I use 10L14 steel , it comes raw in cold drawn bars, 20 Ft long.
It also has low carbon content, but the important advantage is that when turning it produces scrap in short "scales" and is sort of self-lubricated, the mix contains a little lead, while simple low carbon steel (SAE 1008, 1010, etc.) produce long curls which mess the lathe, get caught by the moving parts, etc. ; lathe guys *hate* them.
For the flat disks I go to scrap iron dealers who buy and cut old ships , best source for tons (literally) of low carbon steel for peanuts.
They sell it cheap because "nobody wants it", being the weakest mechanically.
I have the disks roughly cut with an oxygen torch, then the lathe guy finishes them.
Being used ship stuff, when I buy them they are very rusty.
No problem at all, because I always remove a couple mm anyway.
After turning, my disks are shiny bright just machined iron, and must be soldered to the frame and zinc plated asap.
It also has low carbon content, but the important advantage is that when turning it produces scrap in short "scales" and is sort of self-lubricated, the mix contains a little lead, while simple low carbon steel (SAE 1008, 1010, etc.) produce long curls which mess the lathe, get caught by the moving parts, etc. ; lathe guys *hate* them.
For the flat disks I go to scrap iron dealers who buy and cut old ships , best source for tons (literally) of low carbon steel for peanuts.
They sell it cheap because "nobody wants it", being the weakest mechanically.
I have the disks roughly cut with an oxygen torch, then the lathe guy finishes them.
Being used ship stuff, when I buy them they are very rusty.
No problem at all, because I always remove a couple mm anyway.
After turning, my disks are shiny bright just machined iron, and must be soldered to the frame and zinc plated asap.
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