I have never heard anything as erronious as this statement.
At the time, I owned both systems, so I know what I saw, and I saw the Beta system being hoplessly up, up and away above the VHS. Especially in terms of the sound delivered. And I had both units as two better ones of their breed, not nearly the best that was available, so I speak from a home user's view.
It took the S-VHS standard, which came later on, to catch up with Beta standards somewhat.
Nige, this is worse than the Linn saga.
I was hoping Paul Stewart my buddy from JVC would write a bit. I will post if he does. He did the Mobile Fidelity records but like me was informed on VHS.
Sound on both Beta and JHS was about 4 kHz. One sounding less worse might be true. Both were hopeless. Hi fi changed that. 2 to 1 compression giving better than FM written standards. Sound was OK considering how it was done.
VHS was mostly launch by JVC UK. British Radio corporation had shops called Radio Rentals. The UK TV used a thing called a dropper resistor that threw away > 200 watts instead of a transformer. This made the TV's highly unreliable. People became conditioned to renting and BRC did nothing to improve the TV's. The UK had the worse TV system in the World for choice.
BRC hatched a deal with JVC to have the machines at rock bottom price. JVC said OK as long as the quality control was done at BRC. It turns out JVC were worried and did do quality control on them. BRC didn't know and also did quality control. Thus these machines were 101% perfect. They were also sold retail as Ferguson brand about 20% cheaper than JVC ( 25 % ? ). As a unit of machines nowhere in the world sold this many. We are talking 1 000 000's . Sony were approached first and didn't want to know. It was the tipping point.
I should point out my boss was almost tattooed Sony. I was always invited to every Sony do just because we did professional video since 1963 ( Sony grey imported ). My boss supplied the specialists video equipment for JET to observe the plasma ( fusion reactor ).
I know these machines inside out and I have to say if Beta domestic was better than VHS I must have been asleep in the 1970' 80's. Better in so much 28 C is more than 26 C temperature. The way others speak VHS was 15 C. Lets be honest both were rubbish. The pictures on either had no detail and shimmied all the time.
My last ever VHS was a make called Alba bought from Aldi supermarket. An old UK brand on Eastern goods. £80 hi fi VHS. Bought as a spare. It was suburb and never gave trouble. It was not quite as good as a Hitachi I had which cost 4 times more. Asking around it was 100 % as good as anything else for reliability. Looking inside it was a work of art. No cheap hi fi I sold was anything like as good. Even the hi fi part was OK.
If you knew how little I wanted to know about video you would be surprised I remember this. We were a broadcast quality video supplier dating back to 1963. It was impossible to work in a company like that without being constantly updated. My boss was Sony and nothing else. I notice he abandoned our company when Sony lost it's way. Last good products I remember would be TA 88 and TC 177SC. TA5650 TC377. Beta's were always braking down. We did do JVC and had no trouble . BRC selling cheaper stopped that. The worse was my boss with all the data perpetuated the myth of Beta. I would point it out and he would spend two days aligning a Beta to prove he was right. With a test set these things are 2 mutes to test. Mostly to get the bandwidth on Beta the head had to be 100% concentric and even in it's slot. Cleaning the heads was done with beautiful Sony white leather pads on 1 x 4 cm sticks. The leather would tolerate iso alcohol. I remember thinking " that can't be right" . Think I still have some.
The big point is they all were awful and the JVC was reliable. JVR were some of the greatest innovators in pick up design, cutting lathes and little things. People tend to forget them.
I had a Sanyo Beta. I felt it was better than the cousin company Sony and was 70% the price. It was 100 % fine and possibly a little better than a JVC. We are speaking of 5% if it was.
Shiraz
Côtes du Rhône: Cornas, Hermitage, St. Joseph, Côte-Rôtie ?
These are the greatest wines on Earth. "Shiraz" is good if your goal is to get drunk faster.
My feeling is that it has a lot to do with colour balance; the better the inherent quality, the more critical it is to get colour accuracy spot on. I spent quite a bit of time with the Aldi tweaking the RGB levels, well beyond the usual calibration "standards" - and it's paid off: the picture is always satisfying to watch, it always looks 'right' - the colours in any situation always match my sense of what they should be. Conversely, I've experienced many impressive sets that always have a cartoony quality, the look is slightly off, I never quite gell with what's on the screen ...
Does this sound familiar at all ... ?
The idea behind curved screens are for large TVs to maximise the number of viewers who get a better image.
Domestic TVs and Monitors are rarely calibrated correctly, so I am curious as to what you mean by usual calibration standard?
My photo monitor I use a ColorMunki, may try it on a TV sometime if it will work?
Last edited:
I have never heard anything as erronious as this statement.
At the time, I owned both systems, so I know what I saw, and I saw the Beta system being hoplessly up, up and away above the VHS. Especially in terms of the sound delivered. And I had both units as two better ones of their breed, not nearly the best that was available, so I speak from a home user's view.
It took the S-VHS standard, which came later on, to catch up with Beta standards somewhat.
Nige, this is worse than the Linn saga.
Lots of TV and broadcast companies used Betamax, why?, I use to get tapes (bulk erased) from a source at Yorkshire television, I also had a Hi8 camcorder at the time Sony FX700, much better quality than VHS, finally moved to S-VHS as editing decks were cheaper and more readily available.
I want to build a very simple RIAA stage with perhaps other EQ's. I might be lazy and use some op amps as this has been successful in the past. My old dog Quads 33 has got me thinking. I have some military EF 86 and 2SB970 BC327/337 and mostly any nice op-amp in the shed ( even some LM347 I found ! ) . The one EF 86 with shunt input feedback is one I like. I don't like building a 6.3 V supply. My instinct is it can work with 2SB970 as the voltages are fine. I have some 2SA 872A also and can get 2SA1085. BC 327/337 are also low noise ( 0.65 nV / Hz ) . I probably will do the 75 uS in the second stage ( usually first when I did op amps ) . The design I doodled yesterday would easily do that. If the op amp had good bandwidth it could be active. That is gain, buffering, EQ in one hit. I have never tried EF 86 with MC. It might just work if the op amp gave the gain. If so passive 75 uS. After all a microphone has about modern MC output when a high quality type ( 700 uV ). I have used cascaded ECC83 with MC. Absolutely no obvious hiss. An old RCA design in a Radio Shack book that they obviously never tested as it had far too much gain for MM and distorted like a guitar amp. On MC is was sublime. Attempts to make it MM ruined the sound. If I did it again I would add shunt feedback to valve No 1. It could be removed for MC.
Talking last night to my friend John we got on to Nu Vista's in Neumann microphones. John said something that made my blood boil. He liked the sound of the Nu Vista. I said nonsense. He likes the low noise and low distortion of the Nu Vista which is better than any transistor in this application. John conceded the point and said only one problem. The bias for the microphone is also the heater supply. Even though the Nu Vista isn't direct heated this crazy idea ruins the noise performance. Even with two regulators in series it is not quiet enough. Me thinks the cathode should be on a CCS(ink) and that would make the g1 just connected to the capsule. Perhaps John hasn't looked carefully as a PSU to the grid seems unlikely. With CCS an AC supply should be OK if hum bucked. DC heating isn't always what you might imagine. John made and interesting point. The reason valves sound good is virtually no load on the microphone capsule and virtually no capacitance compared with other methods ( a PSU no capacitance ? ) . J Fet being worse. I was very annoyed he slipped into standard speaking mode. Not least as he knew the truth. I told him something he didn't know. Some prefer pentodes used as pentodes on these microphones ( sometimes in 1940's that's all they had ) . The reason being such a small bit of the curve is used so as to not make a big difference in distortion. The pentode should have even less capacitance. Doubtless the hiss a bit more colourful when a pentode. 1/f noise I am told and not so much partition noise. How the g2 grid was set I don't know. My guess is almost triode.
This was good reading.
Discrete design: 2-transistor RIAA preamp
Talking last night to my friend John we got on to Nu Vista's in Neumann microphones. John said something that made my blood boil. He liked the sound of the Nu Vista. I said nonsense. He likes the low noise and low distortion of the Nu Vista which is better than any transistor in this application. John conceded the point and said only one problem. The bias for the microphone is also the heater supply. Even though the Nu Vista isn't direct heated this crazy idea ruins the noise performance. Even with two regulators in series it is not quiet enough. Me thinks the cathode should be on a CCS(ink) and that would make the g1 just connected to the capsule. Perhaps John hasn't looked carefully as a PSU to the grid seems unlikely. With CCS an AC supply should be OK if hum bucked. DC heating isn't always what you might imagine. John made and interesting point. The reason valves sound good is virtually no load on the microphone capsule and virtually no capacitance compared with other methods ( a PSU no capacitance ? ) . J Fet being worse. I was very annoyed he slipped into standard speaking mode. Not least as he knew the truth. I told him something he didn't know. Some prefer pentodes used as pentodes on these microphones ( sometimes in 1940's that's all they had ) . The reason being such a small bit of the curve is used so as to not make a big difference in distortion. The pentode should have even less capacitance. Doubtless the hiss a bit more colourful when a pentode. 1/f noise I am told and not so much partition noise. How the g2 grid was set I don't know. My guess is almost triode.
This was good reading.
Discrete design: 2-transistor RIAA preamp
If all you've ever drunk are $10 reds, then your measure of wine quality possibilities is somewhat 'narrow',
I don't drink wine, I quaff it, that's what drink is for, don't forget I am an uncouth northerner (UK), we don't stick our pinkies out when holding a glass, and eat pork scratching's with our booze
Nige, I don't know what you had, but my Sanyo beta ran circles around both my Toshiba and Panasonic VHS machines. Both by picture and sound, which overall was nothing to write home about in both cases.
The difference in my case was hardly 5%, more like 55% in favor of the Beta. No contest, really, but the VHS format had several times the software Beta did. That's what did Beta in, Sony was hell bent on improving the technology, while VHS was hell bent on offering as many titles as they could. Plus the fact that the Beta was more expensive to make.
The difference in my case was hardly 5%, more like 55% in favor of the Beta. No contest, really, but the VHS format had several times the software Beta did. That's what did Beta in, Sony was hell bent on improving the technology, while VHS was hell bent on offering as many titles as they could. Plus the fact that the Beta was more expensive to make.
I think that's true if a technician was available and all was perfection. I was very disappointed that Sony gave less than a dam when retail. They shot themselves in the foot so many times. They were such a difficult company to deal with. Worse than Linn and I am not being daft when saying that. Linn was for a reason and Sony because they were the league of headless chickens. I was a at a small dealers meeting with a friend who asked me to come recently. This is small businesses and was very interesting. They say Sony are no better even now and act like the dealers should be thankful. Heads very firmly stuck where the Sun doesn't shine, nothing changes. I saw Sony go from superb to well below average . I just looked at my old Sony ST 2950 turner. Almost could teach the Yanks how to build hi end gear. Sony what happened?
TA 5650 . That to me was their last great product if the ES range is excluded as being for rich people. Walkman Pro was OK. Walkman was called Stowaway at first. KV1800 the better TV. Trinitron wasn't all that special. Very bright which helps.
I had one also so must being saying I agree. What I suspect I have overlooked is it took 3 very hard years to kill the Sanyo. When I bought the next machine ( VHS ) there had been progress. I guess also because I used U-matic and Ikigami cameras I knew what was possible. VHS or Beta is like a photo from a scanner. Totally OK but not the best. My big gripe was the lights for the cameras. We got a very cheap Philips that didn't need it. That was a downgrade I could accept. I once filmed our old Prime minister Harold Macmillan. The lightning truely far worse than interrogation lights. He didn't say a thing.
This was the reopening of an old building I walked past everyday ( 100 metres from work ). Like in a ghost film and right in the middle of Oxford. It was so well hidden under trees it was almost not there. It says Oxford School For Boys. Used by the University now and a beautiful building. I found out Laurence of Arabia was one of the boys.
Dejan. The plot thickens . All of the U-matic , Beta , VHS claim the same 240 line resolution. 330 lines being about what NTSC can give. Many pro recorders were to 500 lines including Pro Beta. Lucky for us as we now have TV's easily able to show it.
U-matic seemed much better than Beta. It might be things other than lines. Chroma comes to mind .
Many TV companies used domestic Beta much to Sony's annoyance. Seems they were locked into the same myths.
JVC seems to have closed the gap by using noise reduction. It didn't make the bandwidth greater. What it did do was make it as good as it could be. Apparently S VHS although fantastic a improvement was not great on Chroma. Nor were TV's. TV people say before transmission HD is not better than broadcast CRT TV analogue was. Some studios still use CRT and I am told some are even being made new.
U-matic seemed much better than Beta. It might be things other than lines. Chroma comes to mind .
Many TV companies used domestic Beta much to Sony's annoyance. Seems they were locked into the same myths.
JVC seems to have closed the gap by using noise reduction. It didn't make the bandwidth greater. What it did do was make it as good as it could be. Apparently S VHS although fantastic a improvement was not great on Chroma. Nor were TV's. TV people say before transmission HD is not better than broadcast CRT TV analogue was. Some studios still use CRT and I am told some are even being made new.
I understand and yes anamorphic refers to the geometric distortion to put widescreen formats onto a regular 35mm film (actually any square to rectangle transformation).
None of the tape formats recorded separate RGB though. Nice reference on the different formats... http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/TT189 - 4611.pdf
I never liked Laserdisk much either. It was all in the stocastic resonances of the noise and how close to film noise it was for me. Vinyl vs. CD anyone?
Nige could you translate this, what is "broadcast CRT TV analogue"? Remember there is no analogue transmission anymore either.
Hi Scott. I saw the other day although not analog some small CRT monitors still exist and are still made. If I find the link I will post it . Not sure why or how as it seems they are not that useful. The comment about analogue was from my BBC friend Lucy who said If the public had ever seen broadcasts in the control room HD would be no big deal. She especially remembered 1968 and US video tapes the BBC bought. Best ever she said. Colours were what she remembered.
Thanks for posting comparative VHS and Beta. As I remembered they were not very different. Your version tells why U-matic so good.
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_monitor_frame1.html
Thanks for posting comparative VHS and Beta. As I remembered they were not very different. Your version tells why U-matic so good.
http://www.ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_monitor_frame1.html
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.