I think this is where OB is not as hard as it looks on paper. The calculated boost is in fact a generous boost. I use the Eminence 12Lta. Some said only any good as a mid range. With nothing more sophisticated that placing it in the centre of a 2 x 4 foot baffle I got instant results. If it wasn't going below 50 Hz it wasn't obvious as for the first time ever I got real bass with plenty of different notes. Hard in the tummy bass. And also beautiful bass colours that suddenly said " that's how it really is". My big fear is I listen too loud when them. I used 2 inch expanded polystyrene as the baffle. Cheap and a very low energy store. Nothing suggested it was a bad choice. I have been donated some Celotex insulation panel as a possibly better move. The polystyrene is highly impractical. I didn't choose wood as I was convinced that would make me a highly coloured and conventional OB. I also like the 20 minutes from thinking to reality of the polystyrene. I did put an SB Acoustics bass mid and ribbon tweeter on the same baffle. I never got it to sound 20% as good in a box, in fact love went to hate. The box seemed to need much more EQ and somehow never really got anywhere. The OB just did what the maths said it would.
More to the point you can tune it and very cheaply. Like the room placement of speakers a bit of freebee bass EQ is welcome. If you insist on having it accurate it will be like LA food. As a friend said take some salt with you. A bit of a shock to find he wasn't kidding. That is in direct contrast to the American culture one expects.
Lets be clear about this. If we listen at domestic sound levels we are no longer anything like listening at the concert level. As we all know the ear follows a loudness contour. If we allow a bit of generous EQ and maybe a bit of 75 uS adjustment we can create the illusion of reality at a safe level. I personally think an average 90 dB is a far as we should really go for domestic listening with peaks possibly to 105 db if not too often . Thus we should get dynamic range as good as we can get it and need the colour to enjoy a sound as in real life some 20 dB quieter. Quad ELS certainly get you on that road. They also seem to have excellent real bass. If you own some other speaker become very annoying in that low level detail no longer does much.
Lets be clear about this. If we listen at domestic sound levels we are no longer anything like listening at the concert level. As we all know the ear follows a loudness contour. If we allow a bit of generous EQ and maybe a bit of 75 uS adjustment we can create the illusion of reality at a safe level. I personally think an average 90 dB is a far as we should really go for domestic listening with peaks possibly to 105 db if not too often . Thus we should get dynamic range as good as we can get it and need the colour to enjoy a sound as in real life some 20 dB quieter. Quad ELS certainly get you on that road. They also seem to have excellent real bass. If you own some other speaker become very annoying in that low level detail no longer does much.
Hi,
That's not the point.
The issue is, do you want your tone-arm to deliver a constant unknown amount of LF eq or not.
Cheers,
My point: Witch can be levelled or adjusted to taste by EQ.
Then you reply: Why pursue hifi?
And we end up going in circles.
Hi,
You do mean SB Acoustics not SD Acoustics Open Baffle speakers from the late Eighties?
I'm asking since you also seem to know most of the other guys I used to hang out with when I was in the U.K. back then.
So, it's acceptable for a tone arm but not for a speaker, etc. ?
Sorry, but either you want to hear what's recorded or you don't but if it already starts with a frequency deviation from the get go then where does it all end?
Cheers,
You do mean SB Acoustics not SD Acoustics Open Baffle speakers from the late Eighties?
I'm asking since you also seem to know most of the other guys I used to hang out with when I was in the U.K. back then.
So, it's acceptable for a tone arm but not for a speaker, etc. ?
Sorry, but either you want to hear what's recorded or you don't but if it already starts with a frequency deviation from the get go then where does it all end?
Cheers,
Would this increase sound quality?
Radial Engineering relaunches Hafler brand
Vancouver BC, Canada - Radial Engineering Ltd, a global leader in professional audio circles is pleased to announce it is re-launching the Hafler brand of high-fidelity audio products.
According to Radial President Peter Janis: "Way back in the 1990's, Radial was the Canadian distributor for Hafler and ever since then, we have felt that given the opportunity, we could bring Hafler back to the world of audio. Earlier this year, we purchased the brand from Rockford-Fosgate and have been quietly working through designs in preparation to launch the brand at this year's CEDIA trade show."
"Although Radial is not well known in hi-fi and home theater circles, we are in fact a major supplier to the professional touring and recording markets. Radial is the world's leading producer of direct boxes, owns the Reamp, Tonebone and Primacoustic brands, and ships nearly 100,000 electronic devices a year to customers around the world. Artists who use Radial include The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Vince Gill, The Boston Pops Orchestra, Keith Urban, Chick Corea and Metallica just to name a few. We plan to leverage these relationships to bolster the Hafler brand and have already secured an endorsement by the world's most revered engineer of all time; Al Schmitt - known for his work with Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand and Steely Dan."
"David Hafler basically invented high fidelity amplifiers back in the 1950s under the Dynaco brand. Later, he launched the David Hafler company. When Rockford-Fosgate took over the reins in 1987, they focussed their attention on studio amplifiers culminating their designs with the popular P3000 and venerable 9505, often considered to be one of the most musical and dynamic sounding amplifiers of all time. We are currently going through the paces of redeveloping these legends. But this is no easy task! We are working with various winding companies to recreate power transformers, locating some hard to find parts and retooling the heat syncs. Once the groundwork is completed, we will upgrade the designs where we think we can bring value. We anticipate launching the power amps in 2015."
"As we are a small box specialty manufacturer, we have actually begun the 'Halfer Revolution' with phono preamps and headphone amplifiers."
Radial Engineering relaunches Hafler brand
Vancouver BC, Canada - Radial Engineering Ltd, a global leader in professional audio circles is pleased to announce it is re-launching the Hafler brand of high-fidelity audio products.
According to Radial President Peter Janis: "Way back in the 1990's, Radial was the Canadian distributor for Hafler and ever since then, we have felt that given the opportunity, we could bring Hafler back to the world of audio. Earlier this year, we purchased the brand from Rockford-Fosgate and have been quietly working through designs in preparation to launch the brand at this year's CEDIA trade show."
"Although Radial is not well known in hi-fi and home theater circles, we are in fact a major supplier to the professional touring and recording markets. Radial is the world's leading producer of direct boxes, owns the Reamp, Tonebone and Primacoustic brands, and ships nearly 100,000 electronic devices a year to customers around the world. Artists who use Radial include The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney, Vince Gill, The Boston Pops Orchestra, Keith Urban, Chick Corea and Metallica just to name a few. We plan to leverage these relationships to bolster the Hafler brand and have already secured an endorsement by the world's most revered engineer of all time; Al Schmitt - known for his work with Frank Sinatra, Barbra Streisand and Steely Dan."
"David Hafler basically invented high fidelity amplifiers back in the 1950s under the Dynaco brand. Later, he launched the David Hafler company. When Rockford-Fosgate took over the reins in 1987, they focussed their attention on studio amplifiers culminating their designs with the popular P3000 and venerable 9505, often considered to be one of the most musical and dynamic sounding amplifiers of all time. We are currently going through the paces of redeveloping these legends. But this is no easy task! We are working with various winding companies to recreate power transformers, locating some hard to find parts and retooling the heat syncs. Once the groundwork is completed, we will upgrade the designs where we think we can bring value. We anticipate launching the power amps in 2015."
"As we are a small box specialty manufacturer, we have actually begun the 'Halfer Revolution' with phono preamps and headphone amplifiers."
Hi fi is 100 % not possible in those terms. Different room and time delay added. What is possible is that the experience reminds us of real music. As Linn say that is about timing. What a surprise when people found that CD errors in an esoteric way were exactly that. If you look with total understanding you will realize hi fi is a joke. The bi mono snap shot that might have gone thorough 90 NE5534 op amps if lucky is in no way real life. It is no more real life than a 50 inch TV. What is does is have the clews that resemble our real life memory. I honestly think no hi fi any of us own is better than that.
The Ortofon test record will allow LF resonance testing. Roy Gandy said something worth repeating . 12 Hz is often thought to be an ideal LF resonance and 8 Hz a wrong choice. Swap them around was his advice. His thinking being the 8Hz is further from real musical notes. He also thought people obsess with the springs in the turntable. As he said if it is wrong it is obvious as the whole turntable becomes unstable.
As I have often said the public who know nothing technical about hi fi often rejects " accurate " solutions. Then in later years they are found not to be accurate.The best I can think of is many records are 50 uS. The gifted listener with an EQ switch will know instantly it is so. The hi fi man will continue to listen at 75 uS as in his heart it is correct. That's the Kings new suit of clothes. Lets be clear hi fi has never existed and I supect in the 20 years I might have left never will. The reason is simple . Hi fi is trying to make a domestic product shine. That is like trying to take a 8 mm film and pretend it HD. We find LP by chance had hidden ability so got to try cinema sound at home. If we made a sound recording medium that could resolve 6 MHz then we would have a chance. In HD TV that's was the minimum. I am not saying we need 6 MHz. I am just saying by comparison with TV we were sunk before we even left port.
Yes SB. From Indonesia.
Seeing Hafler relaunched might mean A25's also? They put many to shame considering the 40 years of progress. Shamed my many attempts.
The Ortofon test record will allow LF resonance testing. Roy Gandy said something worth repeating . 12 Hz is often thought to be an ideal LF resonance and 8 Hz a wrong choice. Swap them around was his advice. His thinking being the 8Hz is further from real musical notes. He also thought people obsess with the springs in the turntable. As he said if it is wrong it is obvious as the whole turntable becomes unstable.
As I have often said the public who know nothing technical about hi fi often rejects " accurate " solutions. Then in later years they are found not to be accurate.The best I can think of is many records are 50 uS. The gifted listener with an EQ switch will know instantly it is so. The hi fi man will continue to listen at 75 uS as in his heart it is correct. That's the Kings new suit of clothes. Lets be clear hi fi has never existed and I supect in the 20 years I might have left never will. The reason is simple . Hi fi is trying to make a domestic product shine. That is like trying to take a 8 mm film and pretend it HD. We find LP by chance had hidden ability so got to try cinema sound at home. If we made a sound recording medium that could resolve 6 MHz then we would have a chance. In HD TV that's was the minimum. I am not saying we need 6 MHz. I am just saying by comparison with TV we were sunk before we even left port.
Yes SB. From Indonesia.
Seeing Hafler relaunched might mean A25's also? They put many to shame considering the 40 years of progress. Shamed my many attempts.
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So, it's acceptable for a tone arm but not for a speaker, etc. ?
Sorry, but either you want to hear what's recorded or you don't but if it already starts with a frequency deviation from the get go then where does it all end?
Cheers,
If you equalize the response of the tone arm/cartridge/record player to be linear, you'll hear what's recorded. Same goes for the whole reproduction chain.
On the other hand, if someone likes deviations from a linear frequency curve that's fine by me. Who am I to argue with taste.
I bought two pairs of Dyna A25s in the 1970s and still use them for video and background music.
Seas is now selling an A26 kit, though it's more much expensive than the $66/pair original cost.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...6-10-2-way-kit-pair-based-on-the-classic-a25/
You're being rather negative about audio reproduction at the moment, Nigel - no need for that!! You're right though about typical playback, that it does "become very annoying in that low level detail no longer does much" - a classic marker of poorer quality sound, something that I abhor. However, this is not something intrinsic to the speaker, this is a whole system problem - and fixable.
Fiddling with EQ is the wrong way, this is like swallowing pain killers to deal with something not right, when you should be seeing the doctor - only by resolving the real issues will a truly effective long term solution result.
The subjective measure of playback working properly is that the volume can be almost zero, close to inaudible sound and yet the music that you hear all makes sense, is highly detailed and satisfying. Then, steadily raise the volume up to normal, and well past that, to shouting to make yourself heard, and as the last step then steadily drop it right down to almost zero again. Throughout that auditory journey there should be no "surprises", the sound shouldn't turn from good to bad, or vice versa - subjectively, you should always hear the "same thing" ... that is how the system should work, when it's doing its job properly.
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Depends on the desired transfer function and what the circuit bits comprise. I don't think there's a single one-size-fits-all answer, which is why both exist.
A question of definition: if I simulate an inductor with a gyrator, then capacitively couple to it to make essentially an LC filter circuit equivalent, is that active or passive?
Personally, if I was doing an all-out system, where the normal, mechanical metrics were paramount, then I would choose drivers that gave excellent distortion results in their working range, ignoring FR aspects; use a full blown DSP solution, a DEQX type of thing, which would cleanly brick wall each driver to their working range, and adjust as "perfect" a FR in the working range as one wants - zero analogue filtering of any type. This should produce a measured capability as good as anything out there; plus, actually sound good ... .
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Definition: mixed; semi-active.
We put a complex active element (opamp) in a "passive" position as gyrator. We don't want it to be "active". We even combine with "passive line-level filtering techniques". So at heart, nobody wants active when passive is easy and possible (either line-level or speaker-level).
Physics may require the use of active (deep notch, unsuitable amplifier drive, etc.), but most of the time it is skill limitation that requires the use of active. It also requires a knowledge/skill/experience to make a judgement on which option is more likely to give a better result at any given situation where both options are possible.
For a number of reasons. May be there are "unknown" reasons as well, who knows? Some thing as true but not easy to understand like the Fletcher Munson curve.
Many of us tend to think partially when designing an audio system. It is harder for people who design for the market (commercially) because they do not see the complete link.
Any compensation can be done anywhere in the link with different result. But to some extent I guess, managing excesses is much easier than managing deficits.
Hi,
Very true.
The problem only becomes one when people are no longer aware of it and design phono preamps that will actually amplify the arm's LF resonance from the first stage on.
Resonances that have no bearing with the recording have no place in the reproduction of sound.
My main objection was/is that when people then hear a tone arm that is well behaved (no objectionable LF/HF peaks), they then complain about its lacking in bass.
IOW, it is as if they listen with the loudness filter switched on regardless of listening volume.
Which is fine by me for as long as they don't tell me my system isn't "transparent" but theirs is.....
It sometimes amazes me how badly set up some expensive system are. Even 100kg+ turn tables can till quite easily suffer from all sorts of acoustic feedback etc.
At the other end of the scale it never stops amazing me how well a modest system can sound once properly taken care of.
Cheers,
Very true.
The problem only becomes one when people are no longer aware of it and design phono preamps that will actually amplify the arm's LF resonance from the first stage on.
Resonances that have no bearing with the recording have no place in the reproduction of sound.
My main objection was/is that when people then hear a tone arm that is well behaved (no objectionable LF/HF peaks), they then complain about its lacking in bass.
IOW, it is as if they listen with the loudness filter switched on regardless of listening volume.
Which is fine by me for as long as they don't tell me my system isn't "transparent" but theirs is.....
It sometimes amazes me how badly set up some expensive system are. Even 100kg+ turn tables can till quite easily suffer from all sorts of acoustic feedback etc.
At the other end of the scale it never stops amazing me how well a modest system can sound once properly taken care of.
Cheers,
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