A combination of sociology (there's a "community" irrespective of geography), actual sound differences between speakers (which demonstrably DO sound different), the power of suggestion from published reviews and subsequent "coaching," and the process of selective reading of the descriptions (see the history of interpretation of the "remote viewing" fraud).
In the case of components that actually aren't different sounding but get consistent descriptions, it's akin to how people who have never met one another both describing people born under the astrological sign of Taurus as tending to be stubborn.
This needs to be said. Closed minds attempt to silence "dissent" from others, or use childish debating tactics while pretending to be scientific.
Science progresses only from open minds, iterating between theory and experiment.
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Hi,
Jan, IMHO the main advantage of valves is that they're inherently such simple devices requiring little interference to convey the signal faithfully.
Personally I would be very interested to see SE DHT amps that for once are not the even order harmonic distortion generators they all too often are.
This should be technically possible.
Furthermore and in the same philosophical spirit, I would also like to see more full range speakers of higher efficiency which in view of current tech available should also be quite feasible.
If after all that we'd go back to recording music as was done over fifty years ago, maybe then we could once again enjoy the music at our homes instead of wondering where it all went wrong?
Cheers,
Jan, IMHO the main advantage of valves is that they're inherently such simple devices requiring little interference to convey the signal faithfully.
Personally I would be very interested to see SE DHT amps that for once are not the even order harmonic distortion generators they all too often are.
This should be technically possible.
Furthermore and in the same philosophical spirit, I would also like to see more full range speakers of higher efficiency which in view of current tech available should also be quite feasible.
If after all that we'd go back to recording music as was done over fifty years ago, maybe then we could once again enjoy the music at our homes instead of wondering where it all went wrong?
Cheers,
As to comparing tubes to ss, it just occured to me that insisting on comparing one tube to one transistor, while seemingly apples-apples, we short-change ourselves big time.
It pretty easy to throw a few additional 5-ct transistors together, cascoding and bootstrapping, and come up with a 'super transistor' which is small, cheap, needs no heater and gives < 0.01 % THD in open loop....
That would be an extremely hard act to follow with glass.
Jan
It pretty easy to throw a few additional 5-ct transistors together, cascoding and bootstrapping, and come up with a 'super transistor' which is small, cheap, needs no heater and gives < 0.01 % THD in open loop....
That would be an extremely hard act to follow with glass.
Jan
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Peer pressure and conformation bias to name a few. Advertisement incomes from the manufacturers are a big influence on the outcome of a review to.
That the descriptions come from different places and times, makes it even more likely that the reviewers influenced each other.
And YES, people are influenced by looks and price. That's why we must use level matched ears only testing.
This just proves my point.
We are all human and suspect to all kind of biases. An informed person knows this and uses testing to prevent biases.
This is my argument in abstract form:
Some people claim X
Others claim Y
X comes from scientific testing, Y does not.
My critical thinking skills tell me X is more likely to be true.
Strawman argument.
In science a hypothesis must be tested in an experiment that can prove the hypothesis is wrong.
Level matched ears only testing can do that.
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I have not yet descibed conditions where people are fooled or deceived or marketed to. I really dont care about those things as much as many here seem to be. Lets try to address the legitimate differences or similarities rather than High-End marketing poop.
Observations are important in any field of science. They lead to scientific discovery amoungst many other insights. Whether it be your doctors observations leading to specific tests and more discovery. Or many many people's input on a particular audio product. Where the audio observations are alike, we can then apply tests to determine why it might be this or that way. But certainly, you cant ignore the observations when so many people hear differences that are like one anothers'?!
THx-RNMarsh
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Of cause we must take notice if someone or many come up with some kind of observation. Crossover distortion in earlier transistor amps come to mind.
But then we must use the scientific method to test these observations and not just blindly follow them.
You might add slew rate limitation as well. I first heard it (the sound of SR limitation) in the "Texan" amplifier in the seventies. There was no need for "scientific proof" to hear it.
I am pretty sure that I understand the scientific processes and their need for proper results and understanding. I'd bet a dollar on it.
I find a lot of time wasted here on discounting the obvious problems and not addressing the many many many common observations as serious -- thus, no further scientific inquiry as to how such observations are actually being produced by the equipment/system.
take care... got to go get sh*t done for my next bold adventure/trip. Keep in touch
THx-RNMarsh
I find a lot of time wasted here on discounting the obvious problems and not addressing the many many many common observations as serious -- thus, no further scientific inquiry as to how such observations are actually being produced by the equipment/system.
take care... got to go get sh*t done for my next bold adventure/trip. Keep in touch
THx-RNMarsh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh
I am pretty sure that I understand the scientific processes and their need for proper results and understanding. I'd bet a dollar on it.
Then why aren't you applying it to audio?
I want to apologize to Mr. Marsh, on behalf of those here of good will, for this rude and inappropriate remark.
Enjoy your adventure . Stay in touch . Your input for me so far has greatly advanced my system and my understanding of how it functions . For that I am in your utmost debt.I am pretty sure that I understand the scientific processes and their need for proper results and understanding. I'd bet a dollar on it.
I find a lot of time wasted here on discounting the obvious problems and not addressing the many many many common observations as serious -- thus, no further scientific inquiry as to how such observations are actually being produced by the equipment/system.
take care... got to go get sh*t done for my next bold adventure/trip. Keep in touch
THx-RNMarsh
Having gone through the same rigamarole myself, I of course agree with you, Richard.
While I do not deny the value of qualified (whatever that may be) panels, much less the value of statistical analysis, I place no confidence in such tests. I've been hoodwinked too many times, and by damn expensive gear, too.
I appreciate that sometimes, there are problems in verbalising what we hear, on occasion it's not easy, but in general, it can be done.
After some group tests I read in the two Brit magazines I tended to follow, Hi-Fi chopice and High Fi News & Record Review, I was rather surprised when some of their favorite speakers in the mid price section came over to me. I rotated them through the 3 room, 3 amp, all adjusted for 24 deg C/40% air humidity, and was left wondering what did those speakers have that made them such favorites, except for the fact that they were Brirtish made.
That's when I stopped reading, let alone buying audio magazines.
Yes, quite so. There's a pair much nearer to you, and powered by a Karan Acoustics KA-i180 integrated amp as well as with me. That's a combination which cased two tube loving folks, who don't even know each other, to comment upon hearing them in my room that I got the best of both world, tube-like sound with none of the tube amp problems. My amigo Leon (part Dutch by his pappa, part French gypsy by his mamma, overall an 12/10 guy, should be somewhere in Belgium now) owns that, I'll try to get in touch with him (he moves a lot and is not keen on writing).
Which, of course, by in way means that I'd love to heave you come and hear it for yourself at my place, guaranteed you'd have a hell of a time, I'm not just an avid cook, but actually have a piece of paper certifying that I am capable of it.
As a matter of fact, some friends of a good friend of mine from Stittgart, Germany, both electrical engineer in fuel injection system R&D in Bosch, whom I had enever seen before, took a weekend trip to Belgrade and did come over, and did listen, and I'm happy to say, were surprised by what they heard. One was tempted, the other wanted to buy one on the spot, but unfrotunately, the company making them had gone out of business over its owners' tiff. Besides, Son Audax is also no more, Harman International shut them down in 2006, I think it was.
These guys were serious, both brought along their favorite CDs. A wise move, no doubt.
And yes, I was talking about electrical phase. Such an easy load will get the best out of ANY amp ever made, trust me, but it is a double edged sword. If the amp is worth its salt, they will show it, but if not, any fault in the amp will also be mericelessly shown, no attempt at cover up.
Their best aspect is that if the source material is good, they simply disappear, you hear sound in space and in the air, not coming from a box, much less (God forbid!) from a woofer, a midrange and a tweeter. If you have heard stories about titanium domes being harsh, this will make it ckear once and for all they they do not have to harsh, but are fast, lightning fast. Nothing pushes, nothing pulls, yet it's all there.
I am pretty sure that I understand the scientific processes and their need for proper results and understanding. I'd bet a dollar on it.
I find a lot of time wasted here on discounting the obvious problems and not addressing the many many many common observations as serious -- thus, no further scientific inquiry as to how such observations are actually being produced by the equipment/system.
take care... got to go get sh*t done for my next bold adventure/trip. Keep in touch
THx-RNMarsh
Richard, if you want to bet, don't bet just a buck on it. Say the loser by popular vote gets to drink a bottle of Tabasco (the small one, not the family pack).
That should fire up some discussions on skin colour changes.
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