And that's the point I'm making - I would be very happy not to be able to pick them apart, because that would indicate that both are getting out of the way of one's subjective focus; they're not sending out hints of the sound making apparatus; I'm just hearing what's been captured in the recording.
Silly boy - as always, missing the point ... I did say, no subwoofer, and within the limitations of both sets of gear. That said, 1812 wouldn't be a problem, the punch of the explosive sounds is quite trivial to reproduce, providing the amp is working correctly ...
Strange as it may seem to some people, one of the most severe tests is for an operatic soprano to hit a big note and hold it for an extended period; the PC speaker supplies start to collapse, and on other systems, in the past, the amps have cut out - the thermal overload was too much for them. Switch off, leave for a minute - and restart ...
Strange as it may seem to some people, one of the most severe tests is for an operatic soprano to hit a big note and hold it for an extended period; the PC speaker supplies start to collapse, and on other systems, in the past, the amps have cut out - the thermal overload was too much for them. Switch off, leave for a minute - and restart ...
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Update on the OB speakers . They are running in and getting better . Voice reproduction is excellent . They play anything . The volume is insane and they don't get harsh . This drive unit is I supect gaining so much by being OB that it doesn't slow it's 1930's origins too much . I am so glad I did this as I have to say 1 hours work building these could never be challenged by months of building a conventional speaker . $200 to build the pair , I paid less as Pano put me on to the drivers being sold by member Matt form Cheltenham . If I can persuade someone I would like a curved version with more surface area .
I have worked in high end for years . Generally I switch off when I see high prices . Then I listen and switch off more . FAL of Japan being an exception . For $200 ( my OB ) you have something which suggests $5000 . OK ,if being nit picking they are flawed . If they aren't then every learned book ever written on speakers was lies . What wins my heart is I can hammer them and they just love it ( 450 W rms peak handling is their brave spec ) . Listening fatigue is better than real life . I don't like sharing where I listen , call it people sounds if you like .
As they run in classical music is improving . Films are just like the best cinemas only better background sounds in more realistic space . I would suggest films are monitored to sound right with drive units not unlike these . Uncanny how well it works . TV absolutely superb . That is so nice as I do watch TV more than I should . The Sky At Night uses a Sibelius piece as it's title music , wow it is good . The beautiful lady ( brains and curves ) who presents it needs the tweeter as her voice is melodic with less sibilance than most , her co presenter is OK without .
The Captain Sensible extract comes after Larry Adler playing Summer Time with Pearlman , not too successful as the tweeter bight is missing . It is a BBC compilation of the Great American Song Book . Before I could stop it this very awful 1980's 1D sound of the Captain was playing . 3D this time . The audience almost lifted the ceiling off when greeting the Captain . And no sterility . My room is very good with conventional speakers . I doubted OB would work as it is slightly over damped . OB works great . Paper cone sound is there . Far less obvious than box sound . Bass is excellent but starting to die at 60Hz . Organ music is out of this world good . 90 % of speakers I have ever heard do not pass these tests . Some cost more than a car of good quality car ( VW Passat ) . The FAL I like could cost $50 000 if he could ever make his mind up to bring them to market . The B&W reference speaker do better them considerably , so they should . I generally dislike that make .
I listened to High Society last night before bed . Bing was in his own space with an excellent microphone being used . Sound was 1950's except layered . Voice accurate , recording of orchestra a la Walt Disney . Love it all the same . An oil painting with photograph of Bing in the middle .
Hearing microphone pop on 78's is thrilling . It's like someone has enhanced the recordings to add reality . 70% happy and need the tweeters . I have no explanation why 78's need 50 kHz bandwidth . I can hear the brickwall if it is just this unit . The stand in Motorola clone is actually very nice . I simply shunted it with 16 R and use 1 uF 100 V polyester . It is 100 nF in itself ( 100 , 110 the pair ) . They cost $ 10 the pair in a Maplin clear out . Oddly they didn't help the Dynaco's .
One thing . If you build these you will need time to rethink how you listen . It takes time for the learning filter to take over . If you do you will be ruined as there is no way back . It's a personal view and I doubt many will agree . It is the lack of fatigue that has hooked me . Where my Maggie's better them is not life and death better .
I have worked in high end for years . Generally I switch off when I see high prices . Then I listen and switch off more . FAL of Japan being an exception . For $200 ( my OB ) you have something which suggests $5000 . OK ,if being nit picking they are flawed . If they aren't then every learned book ever written on speakers was lies . What wins my heart is I can hammer them and they just love it ( 450 W rms peak handling is their brave spec ) . Listening fatigue is better than real life . I don't like sharing where I listen , call it people sounds if you like .
As they run in classical music is improving . Films are just like the best cinemas only better background sounds in more realistic space . I would suggest films are monitored to sound right with drive units not unlike these . Uncanny how well it works . TV absolutely superb . That is so nice as I do watch TV more than I should . The Sky At Night uses a Sibelius piece as it's title music , wow it is good . The beautiful lady ( brains and curves ) who presents it needs the tweeter as her voice is melodic with less sibilance than most , her co presenter is OK without .
The Captain Sensible extract comes after Larry Adler playing Summer Time with Pearlman , not too successful as the tweeter bight is missing . It is a BBC compilation of the Great American Song Book . Before I could stop it this very awful 1980's 1D sound of the Captain was playing . 3D this time . The audience almost lifted the ceiling off when greeting the Captain . And no sterility . My room is very good with conventional speakers . I doubted OB would work as it is slightly over damped . OB works great . Paper cone sound is there . Far less obvious than box sound . Bass is excellent but starting to die at 60Hz . Organ music is out of this world good . 90 % of speakers I have ever heard do not pass these tests . Some cost more than a car of good quality car ( VW Passat ) . The FAL I like could cost $50 000 if he could ever make his mind up to bring them to market . The B&W reference speaker do better them considerably , so they should . I generally dislike that make .
I listened to High Society last night before bed . Bing was in his own space with an excellent microphone being used . Sound was 1950's except layered . Voice accurate , recording of orchestra a la Walt Disney . Love it all the same . An oil painting with photograph of Bing in the middle .
Hearing microphone pop on 78's is thrilling . It's like someone has enhanced the recordings to add reality . 70% happy and need the tweeters . I have no explanation why 78's need 50 kHz bandwidth . I can hear the brickwall if it is just this unit . The stand in Motorola clone is actually very nice . I simply shunted it with 16 R and use 1 uF 100 V polyester . It is 100 nF in itself ( 100 , 110 the pair ) . They cost $ 10 the pair in a Maplin clear out . Oddly they didn't help the Dynaco's .
One thing . If you build these you will need time to rethink how you listen . It takes time for the learning filter to take over . If you do you will be ruined as there is no way back . It's a personal view and I doubt many will agree . It is the lack of fatigue that has hooked me . Where my Maggie's better them is not life and death better .
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JCX .
The statement made to me about our hearing was off the record as officially humans are not used . As I said I suspect they had been experimenting on themselves . All their work is related to humans .
How this came about is I made some sweeping statements about how an accurate testing rig could be made . The guy laughed and said hi fi can never progress because almost no one knows the truth of how hearing works .What annoyed him most is simple tests show that the ear can not hear below 100 Hz , people choose to ignore that . However we obviously can hear 30 Hz . The hearing is by pressure sensors and brain then reconstruction of sonic facts when LF . You have to understand this man would have no interest in our forum and even less in hi fi . Our hearing at a guess is related to living in forests . The high frequency sounds we love in space might be birds in trees . The transients are predators after us . Living in a forest means we need sharp reactions as our eyes tell us very little when killers obscured by trees . The sound is diffuse due to reflections . We have to pick out detail to survive and run . That's my guess ? Were it not for music perhaps we would have lost these skills ?
The sad bit of this story is I had at one time the best human analogue studies using Hamsters from my test rig ( calibrated to 40 kHz ) . Recently the Internet has lost much content . Like a fool I never kept a copy . My daughter was tested by the University and she has 300 % better hearing ability than most ( I have no idea what it tests exactly , pitch perception was certainly tested ) . It seems this trait goes with Ashburgers Syndrome that both my kids have .
JCX .
The statement made to me about our hearing was off the record as officially humans are not used . As I said I suspect they had been experimenting on themselves . All their work is related to humans .
How this came about is I made some sweeping statements about how an accurate testing rig could be made . The guy laughed and said hi fi can never progress because almost no one knows the truth of how hearing works .What annoyed him most is simple tests show that the ear can not hear below 100 Hz , people choose to ignore that . However we obviously can hear 30 Hz . The hearing is by pressure sensors and brain then reconstruction of sonic facts when LF . You have to understand this man would have no interest in our forum and even less in hi fi . Our hearing at a guess is related to living in forests . The high frequency sounds we love in space might be birds in trees . The transients are predators after us . Living in a forest means we need sharp reactions as our eyes tell us very little when killers obscured by trees . The sound is diffuse due to reflections . We have to pick out detail to survive and run . That's my guess ? Were it not for music perhaps we would have lost these skills ?
The sad bit of this story is I had at one time the best human analogue studies using Hamsters from my test rig ( calibrated to 40 kHz ) . Recently the Internet has lost much content . Like a fool I never kept a copy . My daughter was tested by the University and she has 300 % better hearing ability than most ( I have no idea what it tests exactly , pitch perception was certainly tested ) . It seems this trait goes with Ashburgers Syndrome that both my kids have .
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Our new contributor said we can define anything with measurements . That is the truth in the broadest sense .
We can measure a sculpture . What does it tell us ? It could say how to make copies with a 3 D printer .
Donald Rumsfeld was laughed at when saying " the unknown , unknowns " . I didn't laugh . I didn't like the source of it .
Many people who insist that measurements tell all have no knowledge of history or so it seems . I read some pre 1906 Encyclopedia Britannica . No JJ Tompson and no Electrons ( he strongly suggested them in 1897 after working out the Crooks tube mechanisms ) . However work on inductors better documented than anything I read now . The maths look totally modern and unfathomable , they occupy many pages . My nowadays Britannica a shadow of that version . Most fascinating was the use and maintenance of street arc lights . Gas lighters ( men with poles to turn on the gas ) having training for maintaining the arc . Thus keeping them working almost as before .
We can measure a sculpture . What does it tell us ? It could say how to make copies with a 3 D printer .
Donald Rumsfeld was laughed at when saying " the unknown , unknowns " . I didn't laugh . I didn't like the source of it .
Many people who insist that measurements tell all have no knowledge of history or so it seems . I read some pre 1906 Encyclopedia Britannica . No JJ Tompson and no Electrons ( he strongly suggested them in 1897 after working out the Crooks tube mechanisms ) . However work on inductors better documented than anything I read now . The maths look totally modern and unfathomable , they occupy many pages . My nowadays Britannica a shadow of that version . Most fascinating was the use and maintenance of street arc lights . Gas lighters ( men with poles to turn on the gas ) having training for maintaining the arc . Thus keeping them working almost as before .
Just because at this time we cannot find a set of measurements which defines sound quality in meaningful terms does not mean such measurements do not exist. We just don't know them yet. Hey, 400 years ago the Earth was thought to be flat.
JC said either here or in another thread that he is sometimes surprised that something works even if he didn't expect it to. I would point out to two aspects of that steatement, with which I agree.
Expectations - like it or not, when we see a 100 lbs amp, looking big and mean, we at least subconsciously start to expect it to sound likewise, but all too ohten, that simply doen't happen. We see a hefty price tag and we expect our money's worth - again, fat too often, that simply does NOT happen. So, who's to blame? At least a part of the blame should go to our anticipation based on subsidiary criteria.
Details - can sometimes do incredible things. The last time I was caught with my pants down was when about 6 months ago I refreshed my humble H/K 6550 integrated amp. Beside changing all the electrolytics (I bought it in December 1993), along the way I decided to change the volume pot as well, a non-descripit unit from God knows whom with a reasonable quality ALPS Blue I happend to have at hand at the right value, 50k log. BTW, my standard bitching at H/K us the dreadful quality of their pots and trimmers, I don't know where they dig up such junk.
Anyway, I did the change, switched it on and was blown over. If anyone ever told me such a profound change was even possible by changing just one component, I would have thought him mad as a hatter. Some change yes, but so much? Not tonight, Jose. Yet, hearig is believing, from a relatively modest design I suddenly got the kind of sound I don't get to hear more than once every 10 years or so. The most drastic change was in the quantitty and quality of ambient information, the sound stage expanded and became transparent like I would never have believed possible.
It's true, EVERYTHING matters, you can fail or be short changed on the smallest of things.
JC said either here or in another thread that he is sometimes surprised that something works even if he didn't expect it to. I would point out to two aspects of that steatement, with which I agree.
Expectations - like it or not, when we see a 100 lbs amp, looking big and mean, we at least subconsciously start to expect it to sound likewise, but all too ohten, that simply doen't happen. We see a hefty price tag and we expect our money's worth - again, fat too often, that simply does NOT happen. So, who's to blame? At least a part of the blame should go to our anticipation based on subsidiary criteria.
Details - can sometimes do incredible things. The last time I was caught with my pants down was when about 6 months ago I refreshed my humble H/K 6550 integrated amp. Beside changing all the electrolytics (I bought it in December 1993), along the way I decided to change the volume pot as well, a non-descripit unit from God knows whom with a reasonable quality ALPS Blue I happend to have at hand at the right value, 50k log. BTW, my standard bitching at H/K us the dreadful quality of their pots and trimmers, I don't know where they dig up such junk.
Anyway, I did the change, switched it on and was blown over. If anyone ever told me such a profound change was even possible by changing just one component, I would have thought him mad as a hatter. Some change yes, but so much? Not tonight, Jose. Yet, hearig is believing, from a relatively modest design I suddenly got the kind of sound I don't get to hear more than once every 10 years or so. The most drastic change was in the quantitty and quality of ambient information, the sound stage expanded and became transparent like I would never have believed possible.
It's true, EVERYTHING matters, you can fail or be short changed on the smallest of things.
Nigel, very happy for you that you're getting the "good stuff" - once one experiences sound working well, it makes the normal quality pretty uninteresting - so, yes, you'll be "ruined" for life now ...
I have always been ruined . Now more so . Bloody 78's ruin you big time . Why is it with with better tools we make worse music ?
I only write this stuff to bring hi fi to life . It seems to be working as I get friends laughing at my age 6 view of life , for all the laughing they bring me work . I have enough skills to be an adult when driving and that's the best it can do .
I truly fear that kids will never buy hi fi . It is so wrong . I am almost 60 . My two bosses in the two companies I work for 43 . That is a step in the right direction . Adam who is my newer boss very much a dreamer . I like that . He brought me the Hypex project . I didn't want to do it . He is so genuine I dropped my guard and worked hard to understand what I was looking at . Neither as bad as I imagined or as good as people say . Remarkable engineering and made Adams impossible project work . Hypex understate it's rugged acceptance of working well when abused . Adam is resurrecting the speaker brand Royd , I think he owns the name ? The OB mk 1 were to test the drive units without me having to work too hard .
I work without pay for another company . He is 70 , I don't think he gets a wage . He keeps the business on as he appreciates the facilities to repair his Land Rovers . I have pulled it around a bit by helping with his Facebook pages . One of his problems is he tells the truth . That means less business when as honest as him . He is the guy who jokes his cables come from the Yaksahumi Cable Company . The cable is known as wire in the old world .
Frank, you are battling a titan called "Perceived value".
A big case, with lost of good components inside, weighing in at 50+ lbs, of which at least one half is dedicated to thick, finely machined aluminium panels, simply leads one to believe that here is something special, something out of the ordinary. Looking inside, an intelligent and good layout will only reaffirm that expectation.
Switch it on, and more often than not, you find it's capable of very solid loudness, but it lacks finesse. You can buy similar loudness from mass manufacturers for a whole lot less money, so if you are short changed for finesses, then you are in fact short changed overall. Effectively, you just wasted a lot of perfectly good money.
And in Wayne's case, with objectively difficult speakers to drive, this must be an even harder letdown, because he will also be challenging their drive capability by default. In that sense, I understand his frustration, it's really like yours and mine, but on a higher level and, unfortunately, on a higher price level as well.
Audio is a cruel mistress.
A big case, with lost of good components inside, weighing in at 50+ lbs, of which at least one half is dedicated to thick, finely machined aluminium panels, simply leads one to believe that here is something special, something out of the ordinary. Looking inside, an intelligent and good layout will only reaffirm that expectation.
Switch it on, and more often than not, you find it's capable of very solid loudness, but it lacks finesse. You can buy similar loudness from mass manufacturers for a whole lot less money, so if you are short changed for finesses, then you are in fact short changed overall. Effectively, you just wasted a lot of perfectly good money.
And in Wayne's case, with objectively difficult speakers to drive, this must be an even harder letdown, because he will also be challenging their drive capability by default. In that sense, I understand his frustration, it's really like yours and mine, but on a higher level and, unfortunately, on a higher price level as well.
Audio is a cruel mistress.
As a.wayne possibly remembers, on the Whats Best Forum site, a member, muralman1, with Apogee Scintillas, as probably as bad a load as any around, achieved excellent sound with Class D amps, after some modifications - Who is happy with Class D amps?. So, there are always ways, for those willing to think a bit differently ...
We called them Apologies . I found the material they were made of was their sound . However they are known to be a bad news load . I like ribbon tweeters so do not reject all metals . Metal " cone " speakers sound cheap to me . I think that is because they are cheap . The worst of it is people look at them and say that will be good for two extra octaves . If they hadn't done that all would work better . Ultimately they do not have stiffness to mass advantages if aluminum . Being homogenous they are more prone to high Q resonance .
The Eminence drive units I am using do it the very bad way by using a wizzer cone . That is the opposite . It admits the 12 inch won't do it . It knows the wizzer to be better than some half hearted midrange when crossover come into it . It should be dreadful , it isn't .
One thing with Scintillas is they might benefit in some mysterious way with the RF stuff . Don't ask me what . Conjecture . The output choke might be doing something good , stop the ribbons ( foils ) ringing somehow ?
Now I read I doubly think that might be true .
" Hi Jack, it has been so nice not to be pied. The Apogee Scintilla is built like there is a difference. The positive is carried by copper wire, while the negative is carried by a section of aluminum ribbon back to the terminal. I used aluminum just to see what happens. The kick is, switch the copper and aluminum SCs with each other, and the sound suffers horribly. "
The Eminence drive units I am using do it the very bad way by using a wizzer cone . That is the opposite . It admits the 12 inch won't do it . It knows the wizzer to be better than some half hearted midrange when crossover come into it . It should be dreadful , it isn't .
One thing with Scintillas is they might benefit in some mysterious way with the RF stuff . Don't ask me what . Conjecture . The output choke might be doing something good , stop the ribbons ( foils ) ringing somehow ?
Now I read I doubly think that might be true .
" Hi Jack, it has been so nice not to be pied. The Apogee Scintilla is built like there is a difference. The positive is carried by copper wire, while the negative is carried by a section of aluminum ribbon back to the terminal. I used aluminum just to see what happens. The kick is, switch the copper and aluminum SCs with each other, and the sound suffers horribly. "
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I worked out how water subliming becomes lighter than air . It is easy . The energy is enough to allow the hydrogen to be working as hydrogen does even though valency joined . Thus a water filled balloon in Venus atmosphere at 55 000 feet will float . The temperature is about 130 C and 1 atmosphere . On the surface 450C and 97 atmosphere . Ridiculous ?
Nigel ,
my first OB designed Speaker was in 77, never looked back , i thought about it after hearing for the first time 57's, i wanted that openness with more drive and of course no arching . A friend ahead of me on the curve had designed at the same time a system using the rigid (styro foam) leak 15 inch drivers, 2 per side with double stacked HEIL TWEETERS , the sound was impressive at the time, Very much so.
Funny now how my OB then looked like a 57, similair dimensions , just taller, it was OB IN THE MIDS ONLY, rear firing tweeter, bass was reflex loaded , doing again i would do the same today, i drove them with a pr of MC3500's , with bi-amplfied subwoofers it was a true (ev30inch below 50hz) 20-20k system , when you could find the program material..
A pity we didnt have PC speakers back then ......
my first OB designed Speaker was in 77, never looked back , i thought about it after hearing for the first time 57's, i wanted that openness with more drive and of course no arching . A friend ahead of me on the curve had designed at the same time a system using the rigid (styro foam) leak 15 inch drivers, 2 per side with double stacked HEIL TWEETERS , the sound was impressive at the time, Very much so.
Funny now how my OB then looked like a 57, similair dimensions , just taller, it was OB IN THE MIDS ONLY, rear firing tweeter, bass was reflex loaded , doing again i would do the same today, i drove them with a pr of MC3500's , with bi-amplfied subwoofers it was a true (ev30inch below 50hz) 20-20k system , when you could find the program material..
A pity we didnt have PC speakers back then ......
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All gasses contain an equal amount of molecules per volume @ a given pressure and temperature (Avogadro). H2O is a lighter molecule than either N2 or O2. Nothing to be worked out.
I went to a fun party out in the country, in a valley, decades ago.
The sound source was a tiny Leak transistor amplifier driving a pair of OB loudspeakers that were castoffs from our national broadcaster (auction sale ?.)
These OB's were the size/form factor of a large modern fridge with no rear panel, no damping material, and the single 12" driver mounted at about 4 1/2 feet up on the 6' high front panel (I tried standing/listening inside these cabinets)
Within the power limits of this little amplifier, these loudspeakers filled the valley with a rich, friendly, musical and satisfying sound that I have never heard the likes of since.
When I have auditioned electrostatics I have not liked their overall sound reproduction.
Within the limits of curtailed bottom bass, IME they provide detail, clarity and immediacy to die for, BUT the rear energy that gets bounced around the room destroys any semblance of proper sound, AND IME the extremely small 'sweet spot' further renders them quite useless.
I expect/suspect OB to do similar in typical listening environments.
Nigel states that his room is overly damped....perhaps this is a requirement for really successful OB/Electrostatic speakers....or outside in a countryside valley.
Dan.
Ok.
So, for a pulse, the rear energy hitting a hard boundary (wall) gets transformed to a positive pulse and arrives at the listening position, delayed wrt the original positive going pulse.
This rear energy arrival time delay would cause comb filtering dependent on the room characteristics, and speaker/listener positions.
This is what I object to with ESL's.
Dan.
Yes when setup wrong , when setup correctly no, they add to the ambient sound-field creating a much better , more realistic soundstage and imaging possible from a point source speaker.
You just happen to have heard ,
1. A bad ESL speakers (plenty of those) or
2. A bad setup ( even more of these).
I'm not a big ESL fan of those using wide panel to reproduce HF, segmented like this is what i would do if doing an ESL ...
King Sound Electrostatic Loudspeakers - YouTube
You just happen to have heard ,
1. A bad ESL speakers (plenty of those) or
2. A bad setup ( even more of these).
I'm not a big ESL fan of those using wide panel to reproduce HF, segmented like this is what i would do if doing an ESL ...
King Sound Electrostatic Loudspeakers - YouTube
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