Max, capruting the essence of brutality is just as hard as capturing the beauty if whatever.
And trust me on this, it has its charms. That's why and how I took the time, touble and paid the bills for my own little hand made car with a Yugo bodywork. The feeling of raw power is priceless, so long as you can control it (and yourself, of course).
Nor are power amps any different. When you takeo out the weedy little thing somebody called a power supply and throw in some serious, behemoth stuff, you and with real muscle, and by God, it sounds very different.
And trust me on this, it has its charms. That's why and how I took the time, touble and paid the bills for my own little hand made car with a Yugo bodywork. The feeling of raw power is priceless, so long as you can control it (and yourself, of course).
Nor are power amps any different. When you takeo out the weedy little thing somebody called a power supply and throw in some serious, behemoth stuff, you and with real muscle, and by God, it sounds very different.
Yes there is some truth to that, as for Sparrow , listen carefully , he is not singing about food , key lyrics " young or old , all saltfish sweet"
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You would be totally wrong thinking that; I'm in constant touch with music lovers from Brazil.
I speak for myself of course.
I'm pleased to hear that, but please do note the words: audio INDUSTRY. Meaning, what those people design, make and offer on sale. No doubt music is not only a big thing in Brasil, but may possibly be bigger than in our respective countries, "the Cariocas" are said to music fans to the power of two.
My point was that in terms of design, those boys are right up to scratch, with different design approaches, but there are quite a few of them, and all are lively. That's also music to my ears.
You are wrong here. There is no problem getting clean power in KW level from amplifiers, but there are few speakers than can survive that power applied to them.
And not only that but some are also very technically involved with everything computers and audio electronic guts (DACs and all).
To love listening to great classical music is one thing, to be totally surrounded (submerged, immersed) by it is another ....
* One of my doctor friends (young woman) from Brazil is a fervent classical music audiophile, and she is very advanced in computers (diy) and audio electronics.
She compares some of the best audio gear (equipment), and coming from all over the world; not just from the USA and Canada and Japan and China and Germany and France and Italy and Spain and Russia and the United Kingdom.
And she knows too what's part of their internals. ...And in both the digital and analog domain.
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That wouldn't be the first time that Frank could have been wrong.
But in general it is the "clean" amplification that is not up to the challenge of powering properly the loudspeakers.
And of course there are exceptions.
P.S. You own the Denon AVP-A1HDCI surround sound (audio/video) processor? ...With its matching multichannel amplifier, the POA-A1HDCI?
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Anyone can do silly things with audio equipment, but that's not the point. The key word in the above is "clean", and most electronic equipment working energetically doesn't do, 'clean' - that's why so many PA setups sound so terrible ...
I've only come across one untweaked amplifier, in many, many years, that I personally heard do loud and 'clean' - the vast majority start to fall apart well back from their theoretical maximum - okay for a rowdy session with your mates, but that's about all ...
Frank, we all know there is a myriad of available loudspeaker drivers out there, from next to nothing to astronomical in price. So it is with complete loudspeakers, from downright criminal to outstanding.
I did not use the word "criminal" easily, and unfortunately, I have tasted the criminal as well as the outstanding. Just as an example, the factory installed drivers in my Daewoo Nubira has - and I mean 100% literally! - impregnated PAPER drivers, so thin you could easily see through them. I couldn't believe my own eyes, but there it was. And they actually worked. When I exchaged them for JBL drivers, what I was hearing changed so drastically that I don't really know how to even begin to describe it.
Not any different with standard drivers. You will have a hard time explaining how a Chinese made 10" bass drivers, total weight less than 1 kilo (< 2 lbs) will not be a problem when compared to a say JBL professional series 12 inch driver, whose magnet alone weighs in at 10.4 kilos (23 lbs). Of course their price is just as different as their weight, but so is the sound.
A few days ago, a friend and I were compraing some speakers, as he's in the process of picking a pair of speakers for himself. From small and currently popular Wharefedales to 25 years old KS (Kucke und Sohn, Germany) pretty big speakers, 3 way, bass 12 inches. After 11 models, it turned out that in our view, the overall best was a KS speaker, not the biggie but a smaller model, using an 8 incg bass, 4 inch mid and 1" dome. Even price cannot be relied on for best results.
While all of them worked just fine at room level power, at 15V peak signal levels, the actual sound was so different that it boggles the mind. Changing the electronics, a CD player driving a power amp directly, did produce some sound differeneces to be sure, but these were much smaller that those caused by changing the speakers.
Therefore, your thesis that all speakers are good but the electronics can be bad is really way off this time. I would tend to claim that both sides can influence the sound quite a lot, but if I had to choose which of the two could do more damage or improvement, I'd definitely say the speakers.
Sorry Frank, but every little bit of my experience tells me otherwise.
Too many trips to hifi retailers, and hearing other people's systems, rather ...
Of course, if one accepts that a sign of 'refinement' in the high end is that the sound varies the louder it gets then one's criteria may be very different ...
2-3 decades ago , i would rarely venture into a dealer and hear a supposedly good system sound bad , not so today , so i can agree with you on this Frank . I have yet to walk into a hi-fi dealership in the last decade and hear a demo that was any good or setup properly, some was so bad it was unbelievable to describe.
Very few knowledgeable people left in the business .......
I appreciate what you're saying, dvv, decades ago I would have agreed with you 100%. However, my audio journey has been very different from most, and my personal experiences have led me more and more to the point of view I now have.
Yes, with normal audio, every time you change the speakers the sound changes dramatically. Why? Because, the electronics are injecting a very audible 'trail' of distortion characteristics, which are at odds with the recorded material. Your hearing can pick this up easily, and this is the famous 'sound' that systems normally have - it is not part of the original recording, and stands out as something apart from that. Speakers have highly variable FR over the full spectrum, it's part of their nature - which means that the spectrum of the distortion varies greatly, just by changing the speakers. This stands out in the listening, making it seem as if the speakers are the culprits.
If this added distortion is reduced in level then one's hearing tunes into the recording, rather than characteristics of the apparatus reproducing the recording - the speakers "start to sound the same". I've done this exercise over and over and over again -- the speakers initially sound "different" but as the weaknesses, flaws are weeded out, in the overall system, then the sound gravitates towards a single quality - that which is inherent in the recording - the system, and especially the speakers, 'disappear' as having character, you're only left with the musical event.
I'm sure there are speakers so bad, so faulty, that there will be distortion that can't be got rid of, audibly, by the usual means - I have in fact a cheap full range driver, from Farnell, that I gave up on ... but they're the exception rather than the rule, at least for me. In one sense I'm quite amazed that the speakers are able to do as well as I've been able to coax them - but that's been a very significant part of my journey: understanding what's truly important, and what are just audio 'myths' ...
So Frank, what you are basically saying is that the speakers are far less to blame than the electronics?
I disagree with a full 100%. I believe the opposite to be true, that it's usually the speakers which bring in new and unforeseeable variable the amp needs to deal with, including the properties of the speaker cables (usually not bad, but sometimes ...).
I will agree that amps are anything but all the same, and that changing the speakers may cause them to change in sound, at least the poorly designed and/or executed ones, but I also know that a poor loudspeaker will simply lose sound quality no matter what's driving it.
Let's get down to it. When my H/K Citation power amp is connected to my regular loudspeakers, it is the most neutral amp I have ever heard, which is why I bought it. The things I hear with those two working are truly wonderful. Let also add that the Citation is EXTREMELY load tolerant, for example, when driving a 2 Ohm load, essentially it is limited only by the PSU rail voltage (does over 540 W/2 Ohms in peaks no problemo, WAY over what I'd ever be able to use in my home if I want to hear mysef think).
Change the speaker to an admittedly rather lower grade, and I still have a reasonably neutral sund, with with a lot of the details gone, and especially with a paper thin bass line.
Connect my AR94 speakers, known to be rather difficult loads, but also relatively expensive in their day, and it all comes back, slightly modified by the "AR sound", or if you prefer, voiced as AR thinks it should be.
Connect my JBL Ti600 floorstanders (3 way, 2 165 mm bass drivers, 1 100 mm midrange driver, 1 25 mm titanium dome, a fairly easy load), and I get something else again, voiced as JBL sees fit.
3 speaker pairs, 3 different sounds. Not wildly different, mind you, but easily heard and distinguished. None sounds stressed, but they are different.
So, if this comes from a most neutral amplifier which can drive just about anything, I hate to think what comes out from lesser offerings, which would be the remaning 95% of all amps in this world. Given that I have previously had a very similar situation when I used amps by Krell, Levinson and Bryston, and that they all gave even surprisingly similar results and effects, I cannot but conclude it's the speakers, not the electronics, given that everything else was the same in all instaces.
And if all these amps were quirky, then there is no such thing as a good amp.
I disagree with a full 100%. I believe the opposite to be true, that it's usually the speakers which bring in new and unforeseeable variable the amp needs to deal with, including the properties of the speaker cables (usually not bad, but sometimes ...).
I will agree that amps are anything but all the same, and that changing the speakers may cause them to change in sound, at least the poorly designed and/or executed ones, but I also know that a poor loudspeaker will simply lose sound quality no matter what's driving it.
Let's get down to it. When my H/K Citation power amp is connected to my regular loudspeakers, it is the most neutral amp I have ever heard, which is why I bought it. The things I hear with those two working are truly wonderful. Let also add that the Citation is EXTREMELY load tolerant, for example, when driving a 2 Ohm load, essentially it is limited only by the PSU rail voltage (does over 540 W/2 Ohms in peaks no problemo, WAY over what I'd ever be able to use in my home if I want to hear mysef think).
Change the speaker to an admittedly rather lower grade, and I still have a reasonably neutral sund, with with a lot of the details gone, and especially with a paper thin bass line.
Connect my AR94 speakers, known to be rather difficult loads, but also relatively expensive in their day, and it all comes back, slightly modified by the "AR sound", or if you prefer, voiced as AR thinks it should be.
Connect my JBL Ti600 floorstanders (3 way, 2 165 mm bass drivers, 1 100 mm midrange driver, 1 25 mm titanium dome, a fairly easy load), and I get something else again, voiced as JBL sees fit.
3 speaker pairs, 3 different sounds. Not wildly different, mind you, but easily heard and distinguished. None sounds stressed, but they are different.
So, if this comes from a most neutral amplifier which can drive just about anything, I hate to think what comes out from lesser offerings, which would be the remaning 95% of all amps in this world. Given that I have previously had a very similar situation when I used amps by Krell, Levinson and Bryston, and that they all gave even surprisingly similar results and effects, I cannot but conclude it's the speakers, not the electronics, given that everything else was the same in all instaces.
And if all these amps were quirky, then there is no such thing as a good amp.
I agree with this, Pavel, but with some reservation.
I have come across a few speakers, admittedly not many, but all were mid to high price point which simply denied any attempt to create a 3D sound image. They were driven with high quality amplification which managed that with other speakers without any particular problem except with a few. Also other amps fared the same, did well in other cases but failed here.
The problem is that of the troublemakers, most were not particularly difficult loads to drive, only a few were that as well - but even so, that's no excuse to stay stubbornly flat.
The last such speaker I encountered was a model from Heco, a German company operating for the last 50 years plus, with a solid portfolio at any moment. While perhaps not a world class company, it is an old company, with a VERY solid reputation, and one which makes its own drivers (not a buy-in, as most speaker companies are).
I forgot the model designation, a bookshelf model (only just, a bit bigger than most), using a 10 inch bass drivers and domes for the mid (2 inches) and a 1 inch high. Well built, as Germans usually do, on the heavy side, off hand I'd say 20-22 kg (45-50 lbs) each. It had everything, the clean bass, the frequency response, the individual mid and treble adjustment pots, the works. It didn't sound bad at all, but possibly the flattest 2D sound I ever heard, zero depth, height and width, two mono points in the same plane. Low volume, high volume, screaming, whatever.
Now, Frank may have a different theory, but in my view, the fault is all that speaker's, the same setup yielded spectacular results with other speakers roughly in that same class. I did not analyze the crossover, a relatively gentle second order affair, meaning 12 dB/oct.
If not everybody can make a really good amp, I would expect the same to be true of speakers and everything else as well.
For cone drivers BMS gives the distortion curves at either 28.3V or 89.4V.
Personally I'd like to see the 2.83V curves as well so I can compare them to say Beyma who use the usual 1W (2.83V).
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