On reflection, what a lot of "true high end" is about is creating very expensive effects boxes. The number of times I've listened to an album that I'm very familiar with, on pricey gear - and I might as well be listening to a completely unknown album! The distortion of what has actually been recorded is extreme, and the poorer units also make this 'variation' unpleasant to listen to - the "better" ambitious systems create a new recording from what was put down, but they make it enjoyable in its own right ...
The Bryston demo just had things sounding as they really do - massed voices sounded just like they do in the flesh - each change of pace sounded 'right'. Another demo at the show that was on the money was CH Precision cdp through Technical Brain monoblocks and smaller Evolution Acoustics - tried a classical recording that has extremely deep soundstage placement encoded on it, would be difficult for most systems to reproduce this convincingly, but the latter system got the acoustic and tonality right. Unfortunately, wrong crowd in the room, so couldn't run it at a realistic level to properly test capability - but the very low level playback ticked the boxes ...
The Bryston demo just had things sounding as they really do - massed voices sounded just like they do in the flesh - each change of pace sounded 'right'. Another demo at the show that was on the money was CH Precision cdp through Technical Brain monoblocks and smaller Evolution Acoustics - tried a classical recording that has extremely deep soundstage placement encoded on it, would be difficult for most systems to reproduce this convincingly, but the latter system got the acoustic and tonality right. Unfortunately, wrong crowd in the room, so couldn't run it at a realistic level to properly test capability - but the very low level playback ticked the boxes ...
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The ribbons like most dipole speakers lack percussive energy , Imo this is what it gives up to its dynamic counterpart . I'm working on a stronger magnetic field and increasing the midrange driver size to 50mm width and increased length to 180cm.
Expected increase weight on snares etc to match its clarity and speed ...
Okay, I've looked back at your previous posts, and you seem to have nailed what your meaning of that term is here, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/200865-sound-quality-vs-measurements-1062.html#post3674887. And I agree with you 100% on the need for that element to be in the sound - this in fact is exactly what the Bryston had, in raw form, driving the particular speakers.
Do you find that this quality is a function of the volume level, IOW, if you drop the SPLs very significantly and correspondingly move physically closer to the speakers that subjectively the "percussive energy" improves?
Do you find that this quality is a function of the volume level, IOW, if you drop the SPLs very significantly and correspondingly move physically closer to the speakers that subjectively the "percussive energy" improves?
That Bryston model was very well recieved by the press and audiophile alike and my issue with it , is Bryston for whatever reason chooses to lay lay with the PS and for all intent and purposes its an 8/4 ohm amplifier .
If we examine it in more detail and consider its losing 5 dbw at 2 ohm and tsking this further i could safely speculate its losing 10-12dbw at 1 ohm then it's sonics would suffer tremendously even on speakers nominally 3 or 4 ohms, this from an amplfier costing 17k....
I can bet it would sound fantastic on an 8 ohm speaker capable of making use of it 1.8k power output ...
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Then the perspective should be the same just smaller, for the drum to sound real it does have to be at a realistic level to do so, anything under 90 db will not sound "right " nor have the correct weight of a solo drum at full chat...
Its very important for your speaker system to not lose the perspective of the recording at low levels, its very important for dynamics micro and macro, i consider this very important as well as speaker matching , we used to test @1 volt to as high as 7 volts and then overlap there should be no deviation in FR...
Perspective remains the same at low levels or high.....
The point is that if you reduce the real volume from the speakers, but move closer to them then the SPLs at your ears - for some test signal, say - stay the same. One in fact can do this to a 'ridiculous' extent, drop the volume right down to headphone levels, and put your ear right next to the driver - obviously works best for fullrange units, - does it then sound like excellent headphone sound?
What I'm looking for here is change in tonality, musicality, whatever you choose to call the experience one gets from convincing reproduction - starting from that minimal level, right up to completely room filling volumes, moving away from the speaker as you do.
When in an optimum working state the reproduction barely subjectively alters doing this experiment - this is one thing I use to assess where issues may lie ...
- does it then sound like excellent headphone sound?What I'm looking for here is change in tonality, musicality, whatever you choose to call the experience one gets from convincing reproduction - starting from that minimal level, right up to completely room filling volumes, moving away from the speaker as you do.
When in an optimum working state the reproduction barely subjectively alters doing this experiment - this is one thing I use to assess where issues may lie ...
It is because of this change in tonality between low and high levels that I insist to on running my output stage with a high bias.
I believe we spend most of our listening time in regions below the 1W limit on a continuous basis (with excursions upwards to accomodate transient peaks), although of course we all have the occasional urge rip it a bit. Conseqently, the amp's behavior in the low power region is crucial to its overall sound.
I usually end up with 0.6-0.7 Amps of bias current, corresponding to around 3/6 W into 4/8 Ohms. It heats up, of course, but that also means it is working under relatively stable thermal conditions in situations in which I use it most.
I believe we spend most of our listening time in regions below the 1W limit on a continuous basis (with excursions upwards to accomodate transient peaks), although of course we all have the occasional urge rip it a bit. Conseqently, the amp's behavior in the low power region is crucial to its overall sound.
I usually end up with 0.6-0.7 Amps of bias current, corresponding to around 3/6 W into 4/8 Ohms. It heats up, of course, but that also means it is working under relatively stable thermal conditions in situations in which I use it most.
The point is that if you reduce the real volume from the speakers, but move closer to them then the SPLs at your ears - for some test signal, say - stay the same. One in fact can do this to a 'ridiculous' extent, drop the volume right down to headphone levels, and put your ear right next to the driver - obviously works best for fullrange units,
What I'm looking for here is change in tonality, musicality, whatever you choose to call the experience one gets from convincing reproduction - starting from that minimal level, right up to completely room filling volumes, moving away from the speaker as you do.
When in an optimum working state the reproduction barely subjectively alters doing this experiment - this is one thing I use to assess where issues may lie ...
So you think earphones sounds the most realistic ...
The problem with your supposition Frank, as you lower the drive you lose percusive weight , the spl alone is not the issue, also you lose the acoustic crnter as you get too close to the speakers and proximity effect , cues important for sounding
Real...
SPL is not an issue with the ribbons , percussive weight is ...
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D,
Next time use your scope when listening , you will see peaks exceeding alot more than you estimate , especially on your favorite music . I also find impulse power response in the ms range to be woefully inadequate . I would like to see at least 1-2 second burst for this rating , necessary to show true real world power , recovery and settling time..
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Wayne, the largest voltage peak I ever recorded in my room, incidentally from the Blue Man CD, was 11 Vpeak. Do remember that my room is small, no matter how you turn and twist that, 4.2 x 3.6 m (app. 154 sq.ft) is small.
This, in conjuction with my 92 dB/2.83V/1m speaker efficiency, makes truly large power outputs practically impossible without incurring unpleasant loudness.
As you see, I already have used my 'scope when listening.
So you think earphones sounds the most realistic ...
The problem with your supposition Frank, as you lower the drive you lose percusive weight , the spl alone is not the issue, also you lose the acoustic crnter as you get too close to the speakers and proximity effect , cues important for sounding
Real...
SPL is not an issue with the ribbons , percussive weight is ...
I wouldn't say earphones sound most realistic, as they cannot provide that kick in the liver a nice pair of bass drivers can, but they are far more analytical than any loudspeaker under this Sun.
That's assuming they are driven properly by a dedicated pure class A amp, actually capable of realising a positive damping factor of any value. The way it's commonly done is to throw in a series 220 Ohm or so resistor to the cans, and if they should be say 30 Ohms or so, work out the damping factor on that.
And please, DON'T ask me why so many people, including some very knowledgable persons, for reasons which completely escape me think earphones are anything else but mini loudspeakers, and thus don't care about such trivialities as the damping factor, transfer characteristics, etc.
Anyway, if you really want to hear your source, cans are the way to go, and you'd be surprised at the loss of gravitas (kick in the liver) you have to pay for, it's much less than one would think. Or, in other words, you'd be surprised at how much deep bass headphones can have.
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I didnt say they did , D , u missed the sarcasm ..
I did.
I am as partial to headphones as you are to your 1 Ohm system.
Sound itself is real, the 'source' is unimportant ...So you think earphones sounds the most realistic ...
The problem with your supposition Frank, as you lower the drive you lose percusive weight , the spl alone is not the issue, also you lose the acoustic crnter as you get too close to the speakers and proximity effect , cues important for sounding
Real...
My "thing" is that your percussive weight should exist at all volumes, why the vast majority of systems at the recent show did nothing for me is that they lacked that quality even at very moderate volumes.
To make the test more fair, use a very high quality mono recording, the acoustic centre is then wherever you are. Which in fact is another measure of highly competent playback, happens because the brains likes being 'tricked' - if the speakers have become invisible on mono material then the image of the soundstage is always directly in front of you wherever you happen to be in the room, not somewhere midway between the speakers. Bizzarely enough, you can even lean your head forward on the side of one speaker, and the illusion sustains - quite remarkable to experience when it first happens ...
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This is pretty much undisputed, but its interesting to consider why this should be so. My current hypothesis is that its nothing to do with the headphones themselves, rather the electronics. Driving headphones is much less demanding on the amp's power supply than driving speakers - its not too much effort to have pure classA drive (by this I mean invariant power supply class A) yet who has pure classA driving their speakers? Is there any commercially available invariant power supply amp for speakers?
Headphones give us articulation for sure, but no sense of the room. I can't stand listening to music on cans. Testing for sure. Monitoring, adjusting, all kinds of things. It was how I set the bias on the old reel to reel. How on earth does an entire generation walk around with buds? Do they know what they are missing? Am I dismissing something? Neither of my head amps ate SOA. ( A Grado and a Chinese DAC/amp something) Grado 90's and old Yamahammers from the 70's. Still some of the most musical.
My Stax electros are a pleasure...great sensation of low bass and mid/highs are totally non fatiguing.
The downside is they need a decent amp to drive the transformer/polarising box.
I have yet to hear ear buds that go anywhere near the sound of over ear cans.
Many MP3/iPod users are using over ears (out in public), so maybe some recognize that in-ears are not up to the task...then again some of those are 'Dr Dre' users.....
As for the rest....they have not a clue as to what they are missing.
Dan.
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