Sound Quality Vs. Measurements

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jump to Latest
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
It was a Garrard engineer mostly I wanted to celebrate . F1 was a tenuous link . Sorry all the same .

Frank was the man who too late in the day tried to rescue the design team at Garrard .

I took Thoren's chief designer Kurt Olbert to meet him . That was at Toyota . He told Kurt in front of his bosses that Garrard was a proper engineering company . Using lasers in the 1970's . Many don't know they subcontracted to many Japanese companies ( did work for them ) . 4500 staff at one time .
 
D

dvv

Member
Joined 2004
simon7000 said:
Two issues.

The U.S. has more roads, including secondary roads, than any European country. Cities are also farther apart.

I have driven three cars now from new to 250,000 miles (+/- 5000). Using decent oil, I have had no significant engine wear. Now transmissions have improved (or I am getting slower) from 100,000 mile life to my last one died at 242,000. (It got rebuilt because I didn't want to buy a new car in winter.)


Second issue, retail markup has to be greater to cover costs. When most manufacturers make something the longest they expect it to sit on the shelf is 90 days. An efficient manufacturer will have this be far shorter. In mega retailers they get 6 inventory turns per year. At the high end two. That means that the fast moving goods can sell in a month and some stuff takes years. So the cost of dead inventory is either sell it at a loss or pay interest, shelf space, loss of turn etc.

My cost on shop space is under $6 /sq. foot/year. Retail is at least $40. One employee can produce easily $400,000 worth of product a year. His pay is 1/2 that of a salesman who can sell the same.

Then there are extra costs with retail sales, like refunds, credit charges etc.

Of course I personally can't handle irrational folks so I don't do retail.
Click to expand...

Yeah - so what's your point?
 
a.wayne

a.wayne

Member
Joined 2008
nigel pearson said:
It was a Garrard engineer mostly I wanted to celebrate . F1 was a tenuous link . Sorry all the same .

Frank was the man who too late in the day tried to rescue the design team at Garrard .

I took Thoren's chief designer Kurt Olbert to meet him . That was at Toyota . He told Kurt in front of his bosses that Garrard was a proper engineering company . Using lasers in the 1970's . Many don't know they subcontracted to many Japanese companies ( did work for them ) . 4500 staff at one time .
Click to expand...

Wow , I dont have fond memories of any of my Garrard's and i was ok with frank Until the Senna coverup .

None of my Garrard's TT really did anything well , same for lenco , now they are good and we need 1925 speakers and SE 5 watt tubes for good sound ..


The madness continues ...... :)
 
jacco vermeulen

jacco vermeulen

Member
Joined 2004
nigel pearson said:
It was a Garrard engineer mostly I wanted to celebrate.
Click to expand...

The name is Dernie

(afaig, Mr Dernie got in the racing business at age 26, he first designed gear boxes after he got his mechanical engineering degree, so his intermezzo at Garrard must have been a brief one and not in the highlight era)

Comparing road density is only meaningfull if corrected by population density. (km road/km2 divided by inhabitants/km2)
Belgium e.g. has 3 times higher road density, but also 3 times higher population density than France.
Estimates ; US is 2,0 km/inhabitant, France 1.50, Belgium 1.40, Dutchica sucks at 0.90
(oldy research paper on inland waterway advantages over road transport)
 
john curl

john curl

Member
Joined 2003
Back in the 'record changer' days, we sold lots of Garrards as well as other 'changers'. This was when you stacked a number of records up to listen to, one after another. It worked really well with 78 records, and listening to an opera, for example. You might know that the records that were sold as a set, are set up to run one stack in series, then you turned over the stack and played it through again.
Many of these 'changers' were near mechanical marvels, and they worked rather well, considering the tradeoffs in the design. Later, we found that just having a turntable was both better on the records and gave higher quality reproduction.
It actually took Linn to show what a good turntable design could do to improve overall audio reproduction, approximately 40 years ago. I have never gone back, (happily) to something less refined).
 
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
jacco vermeulen said:
The name is Dernie

(afaig, Mr Dernie got in the racing business at age 26, he first designed gear boxes after he got his mechanical engineering degree, so his intermezzo at Garrard must have been a brief one and not in the highlight era)

Comparing road density is only meaningfull if corrected by population density. (km road/km2 divided by inhabitants/km2)
Belgium e.g. has 3 times higher road density, but also 3 times higher population density than France.
Estimates ; US is 2,0 km/inhabitant, France 1.50, Belgium 1.40, Dutchica sucks at 0.90
(oldy research paper on inland waterway advantages over road transport)
Click to expand...


Frank Durney was very young when at Garrard . He made a big impression . He told me he walked into Williams and asked for a job and made aerodynamics his interest . He admitted to me he had no training in it . The aerodynamic performance of Williams cars was a key feature of their successes . Williams have Bruno Senna working for them now . I never met Ayrton Senna , however I was friends with his pilot Ricardo who lived in Kirtlington about 5 miles from where I live . I know a little of the story .

Ben Bowlby meets Frank Durney at Lotus International - YouTube
I know Belgium well . Tournai especially . Good food , good beer .
Williams FW08C - F1technical.net
John I still have an LP12 Ecos . Also a 401
http://www.garrard501.com/aud1005_p0120_Garrard501.pdf
 
Last edited:
D

dvv

Member
Joined 2004
john curl said:
Back in the 'record changer' days, we sold lots of Garrards as well as other 'changers'. This was when you stacked a number of records up to listen to, one after another. It worked really well with 78 records, and listening to an opera, for example. You might know that the records that were sold as a set, are set up to run one stack in series, then you turned over the stack and played it through again.

Many of these 'changers' were near mechanical marvels, and they worked rather well, considering the tradeoffs in the design. Later, we found that just having a turntable was both better on the records and gave higher quality reproduction.

It actually took Linn to show what a good turntable design could do to improve overall audio reproduction, approximately 40 years ago. I have never gone back, (happily) to something less refined).
Click to expand...

All true. The Germans (Thorens, Dual, Perpetuum Ebner, Telefunken, etc) were especially keen on first changers, and then automatic TTs.

My starter model, Dual 1019, was a changer, from 1968. A lot like the Garrards of the time.

As for Linn, I beg to differ - TTs like the Linn existed many years before Linn ever happened, and were called Thorens. Like the model 166 (I think that was its designation), which was around for about 3 years before Linn ever happened, and come to think of it, the Linn looked outside and inside just like that Thorens. Looked A LOT like it.

My later and current TT, Dual CS604, is called "semi automatic", but all it does is to lift the arm when it gets to the last innermost groove and switch itself off.
 
SY

SY

Ex-Moderator
Joined 2002
SYclotron.com
The Linn was much closer in concept to AR than Thorens. Lots of folks with ARs replaced the (at best) functional arm with something better, and the result was not noticeable inferior to a Linn. I used to do a little demo with mine, tapping on the plinth with my finger while a record was playing- no breakthrough.
 
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
LP12

The Linn LP12 is like the Thoren's TD 150 with a point contact bearing improvement . The springs from LP12 fit a TD150 , I used to provided them to TD 150 owners ( £6 a set in 1997 ) . Both LP12 and TD150 have a defect of spring location , the center of gravity is between the arm and centre bearing . Ideally it should be at the turntable centre ( if anywhere specific that is ) . However if set up properly the defect assists the vertical bounce of the turntable . That is important as the vertical is the most useful direction for it to bounce ( preserving vertical information of stylus movement ) . Rotational stiffness is helpful . Making sure the bounce is vertical ensures that . It must bounce freely and evenly and not stop too quickly . LP12 used a Philips Airpax motor which seemed better to me . LP12 chassis is a slight improvement over that of TD150 . The new Linn chassis would be well worth a DIY item . PSU's also .

TD160 cured the spring problem . I and others feel TD150 to be superior .

The AR was made so as to have a cheap transcription turntable to go with AR3 . I think it's designer said the problem is ultimately the belt principle is fine for a cheap design . Platine Verdier was the first to understand that and is a turntable from personal experience I would totally recommend it wanting a belt drive . Technics SP10 a favorite also if direct drive .

If anyone wants to do a TD150 or LP12 thread I would be happy to help .

I have a deep affection for both these designs .

TD125 and 126 are absolute bargains if wanting to go the Thorens route .
 
Last edited:
a.wayne

a.wayne

Member
Joined 2008
SY said:
The Linn was much closer in concept to AR than Thorens. Lots of folks with ARs replaced the (at best) functional arm with something better, and the result was not noticeable inferior to a Linn. I used to do a little demo with mine, tapping on the plinth with my finger while a record was playing- no breakthrough.
Click to expand...

+10 on the AR ......Arm recommendations ..?
 
Last edited:
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
Last edited:
M

MelB

Member
Joined 2005
nigel pearson said:
This is the designer speaking . Linn and Thorens never mention him as far as I know ?

AR Turntable History | Vinyl Nirvana AR Turntable Acoustic Research Merrill Thorens For Sale

I don't like low efficiency speakers . However I make an exception with AR ( 3a ) .
Click to expand...

I have an almost mint pair of AR 9's sitting in my basement that I picked up for $500 CND about...humm must be 15 years ago now. I know I'm saving them for something? The problem with them is you just can't drag them out and try them without a whole bunch of work especially when they are downstairs and your listening room is upstairs..Oh and you would have to run the wife gauntlet.
 
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
High End

Many speak of high end . For me this link is truly that . Germany is perhaps where high-end lives these days . Not surprising considering German dominance of similar industries . A wonderful mix of old and new . If you have never been to a German show you should . This is mostly for non members to read who probably have no idea what we mean when saying high-end . Hope you like it . These shows are open to all . If a particular product is not there it is because the manufacturer has chosen not to support the show or there is no importation . There are also general shows and regional shows . Some require strictly controlled ( fair ) demonstrations given by show staff and not the manufacturer . These are considered educational and not especially about selling .

Open this link .
hb.hifi.
 
Last edited:
N

nigel pearson

Member
Joined 2007
AR and other turntables .

I was brought a sample from some college students of what was cork in neoprene used as car gasket material usually . It seems to transform metal platter decks sound wise ( neutrality ) . It also works well on acrylic turntables . Problem with other mats is they damp both the patter and the LP . The cork seems to be different , it has a chaotic structure that breaks up resonance . Worth a try . I have never tried just cork . No idea if it is as good . 2 mm seems the optimum thickness . I have see propriety versions of this which doubtless are better researched . Worth a thought

An old French mat Audio-Ref Le Mat was very good with TD150/160 . I see them on eBay sometimes .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom