Not sure I am ready for $6000 DAC's, but the reviews finally point out some software that makes building a music server easier. No way would I put up with having to change software settings just to play a different format. That reminds me, I need to get around to improving the analog and power supply in my DAC.
Pet peeve: Too many units no longer fit on a bookshelf. Several of my systems are on 12 inch shelves. Even at that, I have to make right angle plugs or have routed cables out the side. Look inside and the box is almost empty; sometimes not even used to separate the transformer from the signal. Marketing arrogance " mine is bigger" mentality. This has prevented me from buying several new pieces. Almost don't know what to do when I run out of old CD players.
Pet peeve: Too many units no longer fit on a bookshelf. Several of my systems are on 12 inch shelves. Even at that, I have to make right angle plugs or have routed cables out the side. Look inside and the box is almost empty; sometimes not even used to separate the transformer from the signal. Marketing arrogance " mine is bigger" mentality. This has prevented me from buying several new pieces. Almost don't know what to do when I run out of old CD players.
Excellent points - I have a plan to build my business not on traditional audio components (source, pre, amp), but rather on modules which can be interconnected to build systems (or components if desired). Perhaps the building blocks will just be PCBs (credit card sized) which link together simply. Any interest?
Here:
That's a marketing/sales driven approach of building gear which I must say I do not agree with. I would rather invest in gear I know have been built with an engineering-based approach.
But I'm just one customer and perhaps the majority does not care for that.
Still, I do not think it's interesting to focus on how anyone chooses to run his company or make a living.
It's better to stay on a technical level and that's why I asked for some form of evidence.
I would like to think of us more like engineers/scientists/hobbyists/inquiring minds/whatever-label-one-wants-for-himself who seek to correlate sound quality vs measurements, not businessmen.
One at a time would be an effective approach.
A couple of examples...
When telling Bruno Putzeys his math in the feedback article is wrong, I think it's reasonable to expect you'll provide the correct math.
It'd be nice both for the progression of the discussion (so that he has something meaningful to respond to) as well as for third parties to understand whether current knowledge and understanding of established engineers like Bruno is lacking or if it's just his or your math that are lacking.
When telling Dustin Forman of ESS (the brain behind the Sabre DAC chips, more or less), that noise shaping is bad, it'd be nice to provide some evidence as to why he's wrong when saying:
I'm not talking about building yourself a better DAC chip than the ESS - even if you could this is not part of your job description - but any solid evidence would do.
Especially since Mr. Forman, a man who has proven that he knows his game, admits:
It'd be nice both for the progression of the discussion (so that he has something meaningful to respond to) as well as for third parties reading your (Audioasylum in this case) discussion to understand who has actually figured out noise shapping and who hasn't.
In both cases I'm assuming you're not withholding "trade secrets" (i.e. "I could publish those papers but I won't because then I'll have more good sounding competition") and you participate with the evident (at least to me) enthusiasm of someone who's genuinely interested in these topics.
Not all speakers, nor speaker drivers for that matter, produce the same levels of distortion.
I would assume someone who builds, say, an amp or a source component would aim for the best performance possible in all areas without using "bad speakers", "bad amps", "bad listening rooms" or "middle-aged+ listeners who cannot hear above 16kHz" as an excuse.
I also assume that you could give the DP-777 higher resolution than its current 16bits if you wanted to.
But why didn't you?
It's not really convincing to say that a "20-bit true resolution" version of the DP-777 would sound exactly the same as the current 16bit one since speaker/room effects dominate in all or most systems.
On the other hand it'd make sense to say that in order to get 20bit or even 18bit true resolution you'd have to compromise other areas of performance that are perhaps more audible (thus the end result would sound worse) - but then it'd be good to know which areas will be affected and why that would have a negative impact in sound quality.
In any case, I think we can all agree it's not useful to consider our arguable lack of absolute sound quality/measurements correlation in some areas to be a "free-to-ignore-even-the-most-basic-engineering-principles-and-all-measurements" card and market whatever abomination of a design one can come up with as a high-fidelity component.
I'm not referring to Thorsten's gear but "source" components like Zanden and "loudspeakers" like Rehdeko come to mind...
Or perhaps Zanden can say they built that thing the way they did because measurements don't tell anything about sound quality and, anyway, there are speakers like the Rehdeko out there!
Last edited:
Marketing arrogance " mine is bigger" mentality. This has prevented me from buying several new pieces. Almost don't know what to do when I run out of old CD players.
If you're going to charge a premium price, it has to look and feel expensive. That means big. Many decades ago, I worked with a company that distributed a high end tube preamp with a switching power supply. Despite good performance and great versatility (as well as rave reviews in the then-underground press), it didn't go flying off the shelves like Audio Research did. Some inquiries to dealers and some direct observation provided the answer- when the salesman wasn't looking, the prospective customer would almost always lift the front of the preamp to judge its heft. Ours was quite light, Audio Research's was quite heavy. The marketing approach: add a lead sheet to the bottom, then talk about special alloys used in aerospace for damping of vibrations. If the Internet were around in those days, one could plug it relentlessly on discussion boards to generate and enhance the "buzz" necessary for fashion-oriented markets.
CD players are obsolete. Use a computer.
DVV all's good ,
Agree ..... I responded not started , I'm most interested in discussing amplifier topology and how we can all move ahead , more of your thoughts on psu design
Than on cultural superiority or lack thereof
I,m sure we could fill tons of pages laughing at such ......
They're even obsolete for that.
When I moved to Austin, I calculated the cost of buying CD rackage and found that it greatly exceeded that of a large drive. So I got a terabyte drive and have been ripping CDs to it as I buy them, then put them in a box in the closet. My existing CDs are now nearly entirely ripped to the computer and boxed for storage. My CD player is in the closet under those boxes. That's the nice thing about digital- perfect archiving is trivially easy.
Hi,
Music servers are now trivially easy.
Use J-River Media Centre correctly set up and suitable hardware.
Done.
Ciao T
Music servers are now trivially easy.
Use J-River Media Centre correctly set up and suitable hardware.
Done.
Ciao T
Why would you see those two approaches as polar opposites? I seem them as two sides of one coin. Peter Drucker is my guru here, his saying that 'The purpose of business is to create a customer' nicely synthesizes for me the two complementary approaches. Marketing tells me what's the right product or service to design, engineering informs the design process so its done right.
I'm sure the majority does care which is why I'm not neglecting my engineering efforts.
I gave you a description of the evidence of my ears. If you don't accept what someone perceives as evidence, then that's your business and probably does mean you'll not be one of my customers. My customers will 'listen, and see' to borrow a strap line from a former employer.
I'm an inquiring mind for sure - I'm also curious about what it takes to make a business run successfully.
I do agree with this. If you read my posts, particularly recent ones to Thorsten where he's disputed some points with me, I repeatedly ask for the reasoning. It rarely appears
Where have I said 'noise shaping is bad' please? I am saying I don't much care for the sound, that's something rather different. I'd be curious to ask, as Thorsten has just now, if he did rigorous listening tests when developing it. Perhaps sonic qualities weren't high up the list? If it was designed with THD and SNR as primary metrics, then its a splendid job, no doubt about it. Impeccable.
I'm not a believer in 'trade secrets' myself. You'll see if you read my posts I sometimes call Thorsten's bluff on that - so far he's not produced a reasonable justification for having them. But he's under no obligation to remain reasonable at all times. I entertain all curiosity-driven questions about my approach. Its all marketing after all
Maybe an age thing but I do not like little modules when purchasing hi-fi gear, especially amplifiers . There must be a certain size ,presence and associated build quality , I love retro gear for their functionability , abhor those one knob boxes....
With so much talk about feedback , I have yet to see adjustable feedback and bias switches on amplifiers, there's some marketing for yah ....
Honestly I prefer CD playback (I am using WADIA stuff). Purchased Plextor Premium recorded several years ago and played a lot with AMQR in the past but steel believe original media is sounding better being played via transport. Also I am a big fun of SACD format but building SS-based DSD jukebox is a tough approach.
No doubt mass-consumer market will get rid of CDs but SACD for audiophiles makes some sense.
No doubt mass-consumer market will get rid of CDs but SACD for audiophiles makes some sense.
So you're someone who likes to buy at the component (amp, pre) level rather than module level and DIY it? Do you care if the amp or pre you buy is made up from modules inside though? There's a business opportunity for people to package my (hypothetical at this stage) modules into nice looking 'gear'.
When your amp is made up from modules inside, then upgrades aren't so difficult - just stick in an extra amp module and swap out the PSU for a slightly bigger one. Two extra channels for your amp and no waste
So in part, the modules idea is hatched from the audiophile need toward continuous improvement.
Of course, nobody but an audiophile would buy a CD player - the average Joe buys a DVD or Blu-ray these days. They still play CDs well enough.
I am posting over on the server thread. J-river. New to me, will look. If nothing else, I have too many shelves covered with CD's I need for books. I though about stacking 3 or four of the multi-disk players, but the only ones left are cheap Sony, which I refuse to buy anything from and the user interface is , well useless. I would like a nice 300 disk DVD player, but they don't seem to exist.
It has to be so easy, How easy? Easy enough for my wife to use it. Easier than just putting in a disk and push play. So far, not impressed with what I have seen. I am guessing something based on a touch screen PC I can build into a wall or door where it is always up, and only the screen gets turned on and off. If it has to be booted, apps started, or even the time it takes to wake up Windows, it won't pass the domestic distortion factor, let alone my basic impatience.
It has to be so easy, How easy? Easy enough for my wife to use it. Easier than just putting in a disk and push play. So far, not impressed with what I have seen. I am guessing something based on a touch screen PC I can build into a wall or door where it is always up, and only the screen gets turned on and off. If it has to be booted, apps started, or even the time it takes to wake up Windows, it won't pass the domestic distortion factor, let alone my basic impatience.
Thank you for sharing the travel tips. BTW I am from Russia so transatlantic flights and jetlag is a bit changing stuff. I must admit that visiting Yellowstone and Glaciers parks amazed me a lot too. Absolutely Lovely places I can highly recommend for visiting. US has a very picturesque nature regret I didn't get a chance get to Colorado Mountains.
DVD players take forever to power up and boot, then even longer to decide to play anything. With an external DAC, they play fine. It is the usability! Java is for GUIs, not CD players. My newest Panasonic BDP does not make me as mad, but it is still too slow. I have a Pioneer BDP I am going to replace only for the boot speed problem.
I keep a supply of old Rotel, Denon and NAD players on hand for usability. When I push the blankety-blank eject button, I expect the tray to open. Now. I don't want it to tell me it is reading the disk, I want it to play the disk. When I push off, I want it to turn off, not tell be by.
Yes and I do agree , server makes sense to me now because of hi-def downloads, sonically I don't see any difference on 44/16 and I still enjoy pulling lp's and cd's when listening ...
I do see my self moving to a server in the very near future the youngster in the house is already on that path and with the majors not shipping CDs anymore there will be no choice ....
So you're someone who likes to buy at the component (amp, pre) level rather than module level and DIY it? Do you care if the amp or pre you buy is made up from modules inside though? There's a business opportunity for people to package my (hypothetical at this stage) modules into nice looking 'gear'.
When your amp is made up from modules inside, then upgrades aren't so difficult - just stick in an extra amp module and swap out the PSU for a slightly bigger one. Two extra channels for your amp and no waste
I DIY when necessary or desirable or purchase when necessary or desirable, If modules sound better then that's what I want , but It can't be in a breadbox.
Unfortunately I have never heard a desirable module amplifier ......
I have bought both and currently have both , the blu-ray unit is in the home theatre and I'm currently running a rega in the hi-fi system ...
Last edited:
Perhaps you've got an expensive one
Mine I keep on all the time (wouldn't do that with a computer), it plays a CD (into external DAC) just from closing the drawer. Couldn't be simpler. Maybe you're talking about Blu-ray here? I agree those are pathetic, not bought one for myself yet and that's one of the reasons. Unresponsive hardware sucks.
But would it hurt the price point to still make a heavy solid and imposing looking box that still fits on a shelf? The weight and feel of controls, finish etc. don't need to be 14 inches deep in a preamp, tuner, cd or DAC. Go ahead and machine that solid copper billet, just make it fit! Amps I can see actually have stuff inside them.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.