you can see the difference in impedance curves with JosephK's work with the HP3577 network analyzer -- when you get into the low a.m. band 
i tried it, could hear no difference with the RC zobel. horses for courses I guess.
the diode snubber does have a measurable effect BUT once you load the power supply the problem of diode ringing gets swamped with the charge/discharge cycle of the filter caps -- probably of much greater concern for low current applications using EI transformers...and that is why ==>
the other Charles Hansen updated his IMD analyzer in the most recent issue of AX and used a diode snubber -- but where he derived the values from I have no idea -- two high a value of C pulls the ringing frequency into the audio band.
i tried it, could hear no difference with the RC zobel. horses for courses I guess.
the diode snubber does have a measurable effect BUT once you load the power supply the problem of diode ringing gets swamped with the charge/discharge cycle of the filter caps -- probably of much greater concern for low current applications using EI transformers...and that is why ==>
the other Charles Hansen updated his IMD analyzer in the most recent issue of AX and used a diode snubber -- but where he derived the values from I have no idea -- two high a value of C pulls the ringing frequency into the audio band.
Thanks Charles for posting your findings.
1. I cannot understand why people which did not perform any listening test, can comment about the effect of "snubbers" in this thread.
2. If one does not hear a difference with or without snubbers, I think it's OK that he post it here that he/she doesn't. It does not mean one is deaf in such a case.....
3. If one does hear a difference, the same applies: It is pretty uneducated to tell those people that they are not hearing it but are victim of some psychological effect.
I have reasons to believe that Charles Hansen has good ears and that he actually knows how to listen.
Charles, a question:
If I understand correctly, the rails feeding the frontend in the amp you listened to are not regulated or stabilized?
On a sidenote, it's very interesting that these snubbers have an effect to open loop amp designs as yours. I always thought they could have a beneficial effect especially to eg the LM Chips because of their high OLG and maybe marginal stability during some signal transients.
Obviously, my own "layman theory" is wrong....never mind
But hey, thinking about it, even emitter followers can oscillate in some circumstances...maybe just for microseconds...during some kind of musical signal waveform
Ciao, Tino
1. I cannot understand why people which did not perform any listening test, can comment about the effect of "snubbers" in this thread.
2. If one does not hear a difference with or without snubbers, I think it's OK that he post it here that he/she doesn't. It does not mean one is deaf in such a case.....
3. If one does hear a difference, the same applies: It is pretty uneducated to tell those people that they are not hearing it but are victim of some psychological effect.
I have reasons to believe that Charles Hansen has good ears and that he actually knows how to listen.
Charles, a question:
If I understand correctly, the rails feeding the frontend in the amp you listened to are not regulated or stabilized?
On a sidenote, it's very interesting that these snubbers have an effect to open loop amp designs as yours. I always thought they could have a beneficial effect especially to eg the LM Chips because of their high OLG and maybe marginal stability during some signal transients.
Obviously, my own "layman theory" is wrong....never mind
But hey, thinking about it, even emitter followers can oscillate in some circumstances...maybe just for microseconds...during some kind of musical signal waveform
Ciao, Tino
It's not a formal test, but I have bult amplifiers with and without snubbers. If I'm to be honest with myself, any difference is so small I don't think I could detect with normal listening. A true A/B test with all other variables constant would be pretty elaborate. You would need relays or somethinf to switch the snubbers in and out of circuit and it would need to be in a different room from the listener so he couldn't hear the relays!
When audible differences get that hard to detect (assuming they are present), you are no longer listening to the music anyway.
In any case the absence of subbers does not seem to make anything obviously horrible happen in a powrer amp. In the case of a pre-amp where subtantial gain will be applied later on concievably it would be more important if the actual source signal is altered.
When audible differences get that hard to detect (assuming they are present), you are no longer listening to the music anyway.
In any case the absence of subbers does not seem to make anything obviously horrible happen in a powrer amp. In the case of a pre-amp where subtantial gain will be applied later on concievably it would be more important if the actual source signal is altered.
zinsula said:
Well, either not a very good listener or (perhaps more likely) not a very good system. The differences created by adding a snubber are quite large. In doing research on these snubbers, the first mention of them for audio circuits was found in Matti Otala's low-TIM amplifiers from the early '70s. That amplifier was *very* highly regarded at the time. After performing listening tests on the snubbers, I would speculate that much of the sonic signature (and subsequent reputation) of that design was due to the snubbers rather than any other design feature.
zinsula said:
No, the front end has a voltage regulator after the snubbed filter capacitors. I also used a snubber on the output of the regulator.
zinsula said:
My experience is that a given tweak has pretty much the same effect no matter where it is used. For example, let's say that you add a power-line conditioner to your preamp and notice certain sonic changes. In my experience you will find these same types of sonic changes when you apply the conditioner to a CD player or a power amp, or even a turntable. It doesn't make much sense to me, but I have experienced this over and over again.
Well you know Charles, it is a forum. And people are allowed to voice their opinions as long as they are not rude to the other persons and "play the ball and not the man"
And generally speaking....saying something sounds better to you is ofcourse allowed but it is not scientific evidence and therefore is often brushed aside by engineers who "can't compute" that kind of information.
Then again even if you can measure it, what does it mean? So we are all discussing things from our own point of view and for our own purposes. As long as we stay civil: no problem. But one simply cannot "prove" or say anything without someone crapping over it...that is just the way of forums.
dWell Charles!
Thank you for sharing your finderiings and the details. My experiances have been positive also.
I need to try one on the output of a regulator. All so far have been on the big value caps used in dual rail supplies. These were bypassed alreasy with some film caps.
The type of cap used has prven to be important. Tried polystyrrene film and foil, Epcos stacked film and foil, silver mica, and mulltilayer ceramic. That is the order that they seemed to fall in.
The ceramics were a surprise. Expected them to work well. They were worse than no snubber in both an amp and preamp.
George
Thank you for sharing your finderiings and the details. My experiances have been positive also.
I need to try one on the output of a regulator. All so far have been on the big value caps used in dual rail supplies. These were bypassed alreasy with some film caps.
The type of cap used has prven to be important. Tried polystyrrene film and foil, Epcos stacked film and foil, silver mica, and mulltilayer ceramic. That is the order that they seemed to fall in.
The ceramics were a surprise. Expected them to work well. They were worse than no snubber in both an amp and preamp.
George
Carlos,
Psychoacoustics is a legitimate word and based on the root word
psychology. Psychoacoustics means acoustic influenced by the mind I think. (isn't it all?)
A "psycho" is short for Psychopath, which would be insulting
Psychoacoustics certainly doesn't mean "Acoustics as done by a psychopath"
Sometimes you seem to misunderstand comments that are in a language that isn't in your first language. Please try to stay calm and clarify things before complaining.
Everyone,
Isn't the "fun" of our interest that no one knows where for sure the sound is truly better and where people just think its better?
I think it is quite likely that certain better systems allow one to hear more subtle changes in the sound. Also likely that in certain cases people are hearing "Different as better" or imagining differences.
There are principles that make it easy to keep threads useful and maintain decorum:
Don't make blanket statements: "All ____ are silly"
Don't make comments about the person: "You are Stooopid"
I'm so glad Charles Hansen has posted his results here. It is great when people report back, based on information and ideas here, and I am certainly interested when someone of his stature has something to say.
thanks
Psychoacoustics is a legitimate word and based on the root word
psychology. Psychoacoustics means acoustic influenced by the mind I think. (isn't it all?)
A "psycho" is short for Psychopath, which would be insulting
Psychoacoustics certainly doesn't mean "Acoustics as done by a psychopath"
Sometimes you seem to misunderstand comments that are in a language that isn't in your first language. Please try to stay calm and clarify things before complaining.
Everyone,
Isn't the "fun" of our interest that no one knows where for sure the sound is truly better and where people just think its better?
I think it is quite likely that certain better systems allow one to hear more subtle changes in the sound. Also likely that in certain cases people are hearing "Different as better" or imagining differences.
There are principles that make it easy to keep threads useful and maintain decorum:
Don't make blanket statements: "All ____ are silly"
Don't make comments about the person: "You are Stooopid"
I'm so glad Charles Hansen has posted his results here. It is great when people report back, based on information and ideas here, and I am certainly interested when someone of his stature has something to say.
thanks
Why this topic always generates such ego and antagonism is beyond me, especially beause it is on a DIY forum. As CarlosFM has said many times, it is such a simple thing to implement that anybody can try it and decide for themselves if it is better or not, with less than a half hours effort and under a dollar spent.
For my experiences, I have tried it in several different components, and I have noted varying effects, from none, to subtle, to what I consider significant. I have also read much of the technical info on the mechanism and effects of snubbers in both diode and capacitor implementations. My conclusions: the snubbers bridging capacitors do something; some components don't need that something, some do; I don't yet understand what that something is; and for the negligible effort required the potential improvement is worth the effort to put it in and see if it creates a benefit.
Personally I'm hoping Charles, with further investigation, will be able to shine some light on what the snubbers are doing.
Cheers, Terry
For my experiences, I have tried it in several different components, and I have noted varying effects, from none, to subtle, to what I consider significant. I have also read much of the technical info on the mechanism and effects of snubbers in both diode and capacitor implementations. My conclusions: the snubbers bridging capacitors do something; some components don't need that something, some do; I don't yet understand what that something is; and for the negligible effort required the potential improvement is worth the effort to put it in and see if it creates a benefit.
Personally I'm hoping Charles, with further investigation, will be able to shine some light on what the snubbers are doing.
Cheers, Terry
Tube_Dude said:
I agree that is the problem. But it is pretty clear what the purpose of this pool is. It even says so on the name of the site.
I don't really know what motivates these people to pee in this pool. It would be like going to a meeting of oenophiles and telling them that they are deluded, all wines taste the same, science has proven this, there are only four taste sensations (bitter, salt, sweet, sour), blah, blah, blah.
What in the world would motivate someone to behave like that is beyond my understanding.
metalman said:
I really don't understand all of the details that are involved. It seems odd to me that a snubber by itself (without an additional bypass capacitor) sounds bad.
Maybe the problem is that by adding a snubber, we are actually creating a composite capacitor that has a small amount of dielectric absorption. The image below is taken from Bob Pease's article:
http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html
Attachments
Charles Hansen said:
Charles, to be honest, I don't think it is peeing in the pool, just someone has a different opinion. Things YOU present are also opinions.
You yourself say in an earlier post on the effect of line conditioners: "it doesn't make sense to me". You nevertheless seem content to accept that; others try to find an explanation to reconcile those observations, and we all should have I have an appreciation for that kind of inquisiteness (sp?).
Now, some of the possibilities mentioned are psychoacoustic related. And psycho-acoustic phenomena are well known and researced, so I am always very much surprised if people take these things as if they detract, somehow, from their stature, while in reality they only confirm that you are human and not a robot.
Jan Didden
I guess it's absolute normal, that everyone has different experiences.
No one has the same system (cables, PS, amp, caps, snubber components,
types, values, combinations, loudspeakers, ears, etc).
The objective improvements and the subjectives can be also different.
Let's move on (and Charles, you should try later the snubbers also on diodes!)
No one has the same system (cables, PS, amp, caps, snubber components,
types, values, combinations, loudspeakers, ears, etc).
The objective improvements and the subjectives can be also different.
Let's move on (and Charles, you should try later the snubbers also on diodes!)
Variac said:Carlos,
Psychoacoustics is a legitimate word and based on the root word
psychology. Psychoacoustics means acoustic influenced by the mind I think. (isn't it all?)
A "psycho" is short for Psychopath, which would be insulting
Psychoacoustics certainly doesn't mean "Acoustics as done by a psychopath"
Sometimes you seem to misunderstand comments that are in a language that isn't in your first language. Please try to stay calm and clarify things before complaining.
I understood very well, do not worry.
It's a very unpolite way to say that I (or WE) are hearing things.
And I've had my dose of those senseless discussions and insinuations.
There are some guys here that are very capable of giving you reasons why ANY op-amp used as a buffer doesn't affect the sound.
'Yeah, TL072 is good enough for your active crossover, use it. LM833? Very good, you won't notice anything if you change it'
Do you understand what I mean? These are the same guys that NEVER detect anything, any difference in the sound.
Because after a certain amount of series junk on your system, there's not much more you can do to worsen it, it will be hard to notice any individual component you change there.
You mods are brushing this thread. But you are keeping the trash and 'cleaning' the information.
Variac said:
That may not last long.
Not this way, not here.
Thanks
I for one, have to admit that the longer the discussion continues the less I know about snubbers...I mean appart from what they are supposed to do... seriously I don't even know which of the components in Carlos's schematic are the actual snubbers... at least I figured we are no longer talking about just bypass caps... But I would be ever so greatfull if someone can feed me the spoonfull I need to "get it" and be able to do some hands-on tests myself...
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