They absolutely do. So does *any* speaker system.
You got it. And Mr. Elliott has addressed this issue with simple eloquence.
Well I must commend you on your objective and scientific approach to this issue.
Now move the mic and sweep again. Then move your speakers and sweep again. Then open your windows and sweep again. Then move the furniture around and sweep again.
Now realise that if you had a live band in your room, the sound would be subject to the same resonances. And also realise that *any* professionally produced musical source has been equalised, tweaked, and compressed, with all the bugaboos involved with that, for better or for worse.
This is by far the easiest issue to address, if you can design and build custom circuits. You probably won't find a solution at your local uber-fi (snake oil) dealer though.
Yes but now that i have thought about this sweep the room is indeed a problem here. What a mess ...
Better to rest a little and try to change room ...
I thought that the power amp was like a big op-amp
I imagine that at the reduced gain it was not stable
Now I understand the success of the gainclone ... much easier
this is the very point. Good amps are also better designed and usually do not need mods to sound good.
What blocked me to buy a krell was the heat and the weight.
I do not like both.
Also cold amps can sound good by the way.
ehehe ... when i look at a schematic i understand that behind that there is a superior mind i am afraid
And actually i admire designers a lot indeed
And after the design there is the lay-out, the parts selection, the building
I have only one possibility ... putting pieces together
Like assembling modules already built, or solder components on pcbs (no smd of course)
Anyway when i see a big transfo and big caps i get a good feeling
The problem is that i often try to put them in a shoe box
Thanks again
gino
You got it.
Finally the voice of reason.
You're getting the picture.
Kits are for you then. If you can actually assemble a kit and it works, and you don't burn the house down, you're more capable than 95% of the population.
No smd for me either
I loathe them.Me too
but I have used salvage alnico transformers that are small but very heavy, and they provide power that belies their size. Then you're missing part of the design equation- the heat component. This gets back to the safe operating area of transistors, and heat dissipation is a direct part of this equation.
Groovy man
Not at all confusing. If you compare by ears only, you'll find that those huge differences have disappeared unless one of the preamps was specifically designed to be an effects box. A flat 0-20dB of gain that cannot be distinguished by ear alone is trivially easy to design and construct. Until you start trusting your ears and evaluate using them alone, you'll be going in circles forever. Unless going in circles is your real goal.
I think yes. i will look for a line stage to start with. Not very complex and solid state.
No smd for me either
Maybe for digital ? not that i intend to of course ... but for small voltages and currents ... they look nice
Me too
Then you're missing part of the design equation- the heat component.
This gets back to the safe operating area of transistors, and heat dissipation is a direct part of this equation.
I read that some high end amps rated for some wattage are unable to provide that because the fins are not enough
They usually shutdown after a while for overheating
Pro amps instead can but have big fans.
Groovy man
The path to truth is impervious
But really i think i get the picture
No more fireworks in the house, at least
Also because here is all wood
Thanks again
Regards,
gino
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Not at all confusing.
If you compare by ears only, you'll find that those huge differences have disappeared unless one of the preamps was specifically designed to be an effects box.
A flat 0-20dB of gain that cannot be distinguished by ear alone is trivially easy to design and construct.
Until you start trusting your ears and evaluate using them alone, you'll be going in circles forever.
Unless going in circles is your real goal.
So good units are quite similar in the end.
They are all right.
Thanks again. i think i am on the right track now
Kind regards,
gino
Fast Eddie's "Hot Rod Lincoln" see post #235
My pappy said "Son your gonna drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"
Have you heard the story of the hot rod race
Where the Fords and Lincolns were settin' the pace?
That story is true I'm here to say
I was drivin' that model A.
It's got a Lincoln motor and it's really souped up
That a Model A body makes it look like a pup
It's got eight cylinders and uses 'em all
Got overdrive, just won't stall
With a four barrel carb and dual exhausts
With four-eleven gears you can really get lost
Got safety tubes, but I ain't scared
The brakes are good, the tires fair
Pulled out of San Pedro late one night
And the moon and the stars were shining bright
We was drivin' up Grapevine Hill
Passin' cars like they was standing still
All of a sudden, in the wink of an eye
A Cadillac sedan passed us by
I said, "Boys, that's a mark for me!"
By then the tail lights was all you could see
Now the fellas ribbed me for being behind
So thought I'd make the Lincoln unwind
Took my foot of the gas and man alive
I shoved it on down into over drive
Wound it up to a-hundred-and-ten
My speedometer said that I hit top end
My foot was glued like lead to the floor
That's all there is and there ain't no more
Now the boys all thought that I'd lost my sense
And telephone poles looked like a picket fence
They said "Slow down, I see spots!"
The lines on the road just looked like dots
Took a corner, Side-Swiped a truck
Crossed my fingers just for luck My Fenders was clickin' the guard rail posts
The guy beside me was white as a ghost
Smoke was coming from outta of the back
When I started to gain on that Cadillac
Knew I could catch him, I thought I could pass
Don't ya know by then we'd be low on gas?
Had flames comin' from outta the side
Feel the tension, man what a ride
I said "Look out boys, I've got a license to fly"
And that Caddy pulled over and let us by
Now all of the sudden she started to knockin'
And down in a dips she started to rockin'
I looked in the mirror, a red light was blinkin'
The cops was after my Hot Rod Lincoln
They arrested me and they put me in jail
And called my pappy to throw my bail
He said "Son, you're gonna to drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"
My pappy said "Son your gonna drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"
Have you heard the story of the hot rod race
Where the Fords and Lincolns were settin' the pace?
That story is true I'm here to say
I was drivin' that model A.
It's got a Lincoln motor and it's really souped up
That a Model A body makes it look like a pup
It's got eight cylinders and uses 'em all
Got overdrive, just won't stall
With a four barrel carb and dual exhausts
With four-eleven gears you can really get lost
Got safety tubes, but I ain't scared
The brakes are good, the tires fair
Pulled out of San Pedro late one night
And the moon and the stars were shining bright
We was drivin' up Grapevine Hill
Passin' cars like they was standing still
All of a sudden, in the wink of an eye
A Cadillac sedan passed us by
I said, "Boys, that's a mark for me!"
By then the tail lights was all you could see
Now the fellas ribbed me for being behind
So thought I'd make the Lincoln unwind
Took my foot of the gas and man alive
I shoved it on down into over drive
Wound it up to a-hundred-and-ten
My speedometer said that I hit top end
My foot was glued like lead to the floor
That's all there is and there ain't no more
Now the boys all thought that I'd lost my sense
And telephone poles looked like a picket fence
They said "Slow down, I see spots!"
The lines on the road just looked like dots
Took a corner, Side-Swiped a truck
Crossed my fingers just for luck My Fenders was clickin' the guard rail posts
The guy beside me was white as a ghost
Smoke was coming from outta of the back
When I started to gain on that Cadillac
Knew I could catch him, I thought I could pass
Don't ya know by then we'd be low on gas?
Had flames comin' from outta the side
Feel the tension, man what a ride
I said "Look out boys, I've got a license to fly"
And that Caddy pulled over and let us by
Now all of the sudden she started to knockin'
And down in a dips she started to rockin'
I looked in the mirror, a red light was blinkin'
The cops was after my Hot Rod Lincoln
They arrested me and they put me in jail
And called my pappy to throw my bail
He said "Son, you're gonna to drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"
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Hot Rod Telecaster like you won't believe (speaking of the sound of discrete components) - gotta listen to the whole thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLdufJePz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLdufJePz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLdufJePz0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLdufJePz0
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Hear hear to that!
I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you've said througout this thread.
These pages seem to be dominated by a few theoreticians that like to dismiss any claims of subjective differences without proof - a convenient position to take since they know said proof in unlikely to exist. They often use so-called rational arguments and yet their own statements nearly always conform to the ridiculous view that THD figures/curves uniquely define the subjective quality of a device. My conclusion is that these people either have cloth ears, or the experimental bias that they usually accuse those with subjective opinions to be guilty of is affecting their ability to perceive differences in the same (but "opposite") way.
In my experience all of the discrete preamp designs I've tried have sounded far better than any of the opamp-based designs I've tried, and I've tried plenty of both. While I don't like generalising too much, I also have given up on opamps - they do sound gritty and unpleasant a lot of the time. I'm sure it is distortion - just a type that isn't revealed conveniently by THD figures and so can be conveniently written off as nonsense if so desired. I'm quite sure there's nothing mysterious about this distortion - but the advancement of this science/art is being severely limited by these theoreticians that won't or can't trust their ears. If they were right, the whole snake-oil industry and subjective review industry would not exist to the extent it does. Sure it is easy to think you hear things that don't really exist, but that doesn't mean everything you hear is delusional just because you haven't checked with a double-blind (ie confusing) listening panel.
Nope - not in the way you undoubtedly mean anyway...
But fair call, I originally built Douglas Self's Precision Preamp '96 after a long break from audio projects and had started to buy into the whole "anti-subjectivist" philosophy and was expecting it to sound brilliant, as an engineer might expect from its excellent set of conventional measurements. But it doesn't - it totally kills my enjoyment of music played through it and I've since done a lot more work on discrete designs to the point where I'm very happy with one of them and don't feel the need to change it. I really don't think it's useful to dismiss subjective evaluation out of hand unless you are a designer that can afford to take this position and it might make your job easier...
But fair call, I originally built Douglas Self's Precision Preamp '96 after a long break from audio projects and had started to buy into the whole "anti-subjectivist" philosophy and was expecting it to sound brilliant, as an engineer might expect from its excellent set of conventional measurements. But it doesn't - it totally kills my enjoyment of music played through it and I've since done a lot more work on discrete designs to the point where I'm very happy with one of them and don't feel the need to change it. I really don't think it's useful to dismiss subjective evaluation out of hand unless you are a designer that can afford to take this position and it might make your job easier...
Why do 'they' keep dragging THD into the discussion and accusing 'us' of believing in it? If you do a count, I suspect you will find that they mention THD far more than we do. We do believe that if the output is a faithful copy of the input then the job is done; are you questioning this basic assumption of analogue electronics? We can argue about how best to measure this: THD is not a good measure which is why 'we' rarely mention it except when telling you this.
Opamps can be misused, even to the extent of oscillation (or nearly). The problem is the design, not the opamp. Apart from the issue of thermal coupling, a discrete opamp is likely to be no better than a chip opamp and could be far worse. The chip designer has some tricks he can use (such as well-matched transistors) which are not available to the same extent to the discrete designer.
If we are right, then the whole snake-oil industry and subjective review industry should not exist to the extent it does. But people believe what they want to believe. Routinely, favourably-reviewed (and sometimes expensive) equipment is found to include basic design errors. . Sometimes these are even visible in poor measured results (such as high distortion and lumpy frequency response, in those mags which do measurements). It is hard to escape the conclusion that they are favoured because of their poor performance, not in spite of it (as the journalists fondly imagine).owdeo said:
Opamps can be misused, even to the extent of oscillation (or nearly). The problem is the design, not the opamp. Apart from the issue of thermal coupling, a discrete opamp is likely to be no better than a chip opamp and could be far worse. The chip designer has some tricks he can use (such as well-matched transistors) which are not available to the same extent to the discrete designer.
I agree with all of that except the "confusing" part. I don't see why double-blind tests should be confusing.
It's easy enough to organize a DBT on the basis of: "Here's two preamps. Try them both and see which you prefer. You're allowed to test them both however you want, wherever you want for as long as you want. Just one rule - no looking inside to see which (if either) uses opamps."
Would you find a test like that confusing?
At 50:50, it would be rather statistically insignificant! Of course there are lots of other easy ways to do blind tests, but not everyone trusts their ears. You'd think that if something "totally kills the enjoyment of music," it's presence/absence in the signal chain would be trivially easy to pick up in the same sort of blind tests that show detection of extremely small level, frequency response, phase, and data compression artifacts.
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