Speaking from exerience as someone who has built a W bin, unless you are very confident of your woodowrking skills - dont bother. I ended up scrapping mine when it became apparent that my mitres were just not accurate enough - but hey we all gotta learn right?
I would highly recommend constructing one or two dual 15/18" loaded subs first, possibly in the G sub design featured on speakerplans (I believe). You can use other drivers and stills imulate with winISD and I believe you will be a lot happier with the result than if you build the w bin.
Once you have vented subs sorted, then Id move on to bigger and better things. I wish I did it that way.
I would highly recommend constructing one or two dual 15/18" loaded subs first, possibly in the G sub design featured on speakerplans (I believe). You can use other drivers and stills imulate with winISD and I believe you will be a lot happier with the result than if you build the w bin.
Once you have vented subs sorted, then Id move on to bigger and better things. I wish I did it that way.
I have a single LR36 Cerwin sub and it does not play low at all. Infact it just sits and takes up space in my system, however it seems like it would be good for DJ work with its built in wheels and tilt handle. It is rather efficient at midbass as well.
I regularly use 2 EV sb180 subs, and they're the quasi horn loaded/slot vented design. They definately play lower then the CV sub does. However with their "scooped woofer back design" they have a pronounced rise above 100 Hz. This adds extra kick which may or may not be desireable.
I'd rally like to try the servodrive basstech 7 one day though....
I regularly use 2 EV sb180 subs, and they're the quasi horn loaded/slot vented design. They definately play lower then the CV sub does. However with their "scooped woofer back design" they have a pronounced rise above 100 Hz. This adds extra kick which may or may not be desireable.
I'd rally like to try the servodrive basstech 7 one day though....
OMNIFEX said:
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reply to darkm4n:
The driver you choose is not suitable for bass bins due to the low wattage for a pa speaker 350w max is 175 w rms,and not sensitive enough.
So I can imagine your on a low budget, So the Eminence Delta 15 400w rms,Kappa 15 450w rms,kappa 15lf 600w rms,kappa pro 15 500w rms all costing around under 100 quid.
Not any driver works in any box,and horn cabinets for pa need drivers of low QTS,high BL product[ high motor strength] and highish EBP[Efficentcy Bandwidth Product].
http://www.dancetech.com has many easy to build bass bin plans just look under da PA gear section-- and scroll down quite a way until u find da plans of:
W bin,15 inch scoop,15 inch/18 inch reflex bins.
All these plans on this site uses cheap-ish pa drivers such as the Eminence Kappa 15lf and Fane Classic 15300.
reply to darkm4n:
The driver you choose is not suitable for bass bins due to the low wattage for a pa speaker 350w max is 175 w rms,and not sensitive enough.
So I can imagine your on a low budget, So the Eminence Delta 15 400w rms,Kappa 15 450w rms,kappa 15lf 600w rms,kappa pro 15 500w rms all costing around under 100 quid.
Not any driver works in any box,and horn cabinets for pa need drivers of low QTS,high BL product[ high motor strength] and highish EBP[Efficentcy Bandwidth Product].
http://www.dancetech.com has many easy to build bass bin plans just look under da PA gear section-- and scroll down quite a way until u find da plans of:
W bin,15 inch scoop,15 inch/18 inch reflex bins.
All these plans on this site uses cheap-ish pa drivers such as the Eminence Kappa 15lf and Fane Classic 15300.
You can buy a good speaker from Selenium.
WPU1505 or WPU1805 (450/900W) are a good driver at low cost .
Selenium distributor in Romania is SC Studio B Serv. SRL , www.difuzoare.ro , info@difuzoare.ro.
WPU1505 or WPU1805 (450/900W) are a good driver at low cost .
Selenium distributor in Romania is SC Studio B Serv. SRL , www.difuzoare.ro , info@difuzoare.ro.
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Or even cheaper than that Selenium speaker and still is pretty good the Eminence Kappa pro 15,500w rms,3 inch voice coil,80 0z magnet[ which I use in my bass bins].
www.eminence-speaker.com
Or even cheaper than that Selenium speaker and still is pretty good the Eminence Kappa pro 15,500w rms,3 inch voice coil,80 0z magnet[ which I use in my bass bins].
www.eminence-speaker.com
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There’s an awful lot of good PA that can be done with a scoop and a horn. The best part about them is that they multiply out into bigger systems well.
Double scoops used to be all the rage. They often had a bevel cut into the back to hold a pair of casters. Grab the handles and tilt it back and even I could get them on and off the truck.
Double scoops used to be all the rage. They often had a bevel cut into the back to hold a pair of casters. Grab the handles and tilt it back and even I could get them on and off the truck.
From Experience....................
As Bull mentioned, for hornloaded cabinets Low QTS, and,
High Fs is the key of having the speaker "Load" in the
Horn.
I personally Like Woofers in W Bins with a QTS of 0.2 or
lower, and, rear loaded with a QTS of 0.3
I would recomend these woofers;
Precision Devices
RCF
Fane
Celestion
Cerwin Vega
Transparence
JBL
Electrovoice
As Bull mentioned, for hornloaded cabinets Low QTS, and,
High Fs is the key of having the speaker "Load" in the
Horn.
I personally Like Woofers in W Bins with a QTS of 0.2 or
lower, and, rear loaded with a QTS of 0.3
I would recomend these woofers;
Precision Devices
RCF
Fane
Celestion
Cerwin Vega
Transparence
JBL
Electrovoice
Hmm..
I don't know what to chose ... so many speaker design's ...
I don't really know the parameters of my driver ... they are ordinary 15" driver's , buyed from Maica Domnului street in romania ( if someone is from romania should know ) .
What do you think the best option is .. ?
P.S. or maybe the selenium driver's from www.difuzoare.ro
Thank's !
I don't know what to chose ... so many speaker design's ...
I don't really know the parameters of my driver ... they are ordinary 15" driver's , buyed from Maica Domnului street in romania ( if someone is from romania should know ) .
What do you think the best option is .. ?
P.S. or maybe the selenium driver's from www.difuzoare.ro
Thank's !
Konnichiwa,
I followed the discussion with some amusement. I agree with some comments and disagree with others.... Here MY experience....
In the late 80's we used a certain type of speaker system as "medium throw" PA & as side/backfill monitors in conjunction with larger PA Systems. These where cost effective and quite decent sounding, especially on vocals, where cheap horns are always nasty (at least in those days).
These speakers, stackable/modular and affordable where classic "15/3" Cabinets, appx 72 X 63 X 35cm in dimensions reflex boxes, tuned to a callsci "maximum flat" alignment around 45Hz. We used EV 15L "Woofers" with NO crossover and Audax PR170M0 as Midrange, with a 3rd order Highpass around 1KHz. The tweeter where Beyma CP21 with a 3rd Order Highpass at 5KHz and a 18W/24V Lamp in series for tweeter protection.
The resulting speaker is pretty clear even at high levels and full range enough. We usually used a pair of these on top of a deeper box in the format with an 18" EV and a Lowpass (active) at around 250Hz for the 18" Woofer.
These days I would look around the Beyma Catalog for Midranges and Woofers, like these:
Woofer Beyma 15G350 or 15K200
Midrange either 6MI90 or 8M100 (with lower X-Over point)
Tweeter either CP-16 (with 6MI90 - 7KHz HP) or CP21 (with 8M100 - 5KHz HP)
Sayonara
darkm4n said:
I followed the discussion with some amusement. I agree with some comments and disagree with others.... Here MY experience....
In the late 80's we used a certain type of speaker system as "medium throw" PA & as side/backfill monitors in conjunction with larger PA Systems. These where cost effective and quite decent sounding, especially on vocals, where cheap horns are always nasty (at least in those days).
These speakers, stackable/modular and affordable where classic "15/3" Cabinets, appx 72 X 63 X 35cm in dimensions reflex boxes, tuned to a callsci "maximum flat" alignment around 45Hz. We used EV 15L "Woofers" with NO crossover and Audax PR170M0 as Midrange, with a 3rd order Highpass around 1KHz. The tweeter where Beyma CP21 with a 3rd Order Highpass at 5KHz and a 18W/24V Lamp in series for tweeter protection.
The resulting speaker is pretty clear even at high levels and full range enough. We usually used a pair of these on top of a deeper box in the format with an 18" EV and a Lowpass (active) at around 250Hz for the 18" Woofer.
These days I would look around the Beyma Catalog for Midranges and Woofers, like these:
Woofer Beyma 15G350 or 15K200
Midrange either 6MI90 or 8M100 (with lower X-Over point)
Tweeter either CP-16 (with 6MI90 - 7KHz HP) or CP21 (with 8M100 - 5KHz HP)
Sayonara
Ive been considering exactly the same thing for a while in a way, because Ive been planning a system upgrade.
Currently I have two dual 15" eminence delta cabinets, with a -3dB freq of roughly 90Hz. This obviously is absolutely terrible for low bass, not great for mid either.
Now the solution is clearly subs. Only reason i havent built them yet is money (tax dodging student) and transport. If I do end with a van as is my plan then I will be in the business of sub building.
Now I have two 15" Kappa LFs knocking about, so I wanted to use these. I was thinking originally a horn like the one above. However will 2 really be enough? Can I justify the work and extra cost involved in building 4?
Anyway I think the sensible solution for me would be to build one or 2 dual 18" vented subs, and sell the Kappas. When it really comes down to low bass together with output volume this is probably the best solution. I dont even know if the Kappas would suit horns anyway, I should check.
And a word of warning. Horns are tough to build well, I know I could do it now. But the first time I messed it up. It was an expensive learning experience.
Currently I have two dual 15" eminence delta cabinets, with a -3dB freq of roughly 90Hz. This obviously is absolutely terrible for low bass, not great for mid either.
Now the solution is clearly subs. Only reason i havent built them yet is money (tax dodging student) and transport. If I do end with a van as is my plan then I will be in the business of sub building.
Now I have two 15" Kappa LFs knocking about, so I wanted to use these. I was thinking originally a horn like the one above. However will 2 really be enough? Can I justify the work and extra cost involved in building 4?
Anyway I think the sensible solution for me would be to build one or 2 dual 18" vented subs, and sell the Kappas. When it really comes down to low bass together with output volume this is probably the best solution. I dont even know if the Kappas would suit horns anyway, I should check.
And a word of warning. Horns are tough to build well, I know I could do it now. But the first time I messed it up. It was an expensive learning experience.
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Don't mean to critise but, it's not exactly finished. The hole for the speaker ain't cut out and the 'scoop' slope is not there.
Well you could bend some 3mm ply by putting the ply in the bath and put some bricks at each side, carefully filling up the bath with boiling water[eg from kettle] in the bath
will make the ply bend if it's thin 3mm.
Then do the same to another 3mm piece of ply.
Then glue the two pieces together and nail or screw them to the box to make the slope.
Alternatively you could get a normal piece of 3/4 inch mdf or ply and put it at an angle to make the slope,although the scope would be steeper effect the response.
The driver cut out hole can be made with a jigsaw and a drill to make a hole for the blade to pass through or a router.
The hole has to be slightly smaller than the driver itself.
Fix the driver to the box using T-nuts and drill small holes for them and screw type bolts to hold the driver,which you can buy from most handware stores.
If you want to paint the cabinet,install the driver last.
Either use a couple of cans of matt black spray paint, wear mask and glothes and do in area which crappy otherwise newspaper everywhere .Or use black paint in a tin.
To protect the driver from damage buy a 15 inch round metal grille and 4 metal clamps and 4 more t-nuts and screw-bolts to secure the grille to the driver.
And a speakon connector on metal plate for pro use or a gold plated or red/black binding post for home use.
Use 18 gauge ofc cable inside minimum, I prefer to use between 10-16 gauge ofc[Oxygen Free Copper] cable for bass bins
And it's better to use spade type crimp connections to driver instead of direct solder to stronger joint.
Then add the finishing touches, plastic or metal corners, metal spring loaded handles or metal bar handles to sides or top and castors[wheels] to bottom.
The cheapest driver which works ok in scoops is the Eminence Delta 15 rated 400w rms,56 oz mag,2.5 inch vc,40hz-4khz, and costs £65,as it says in my Eminence High Power enclosure design and construction book, that all the Eminence speakers except Alpha,Beta,Kilomax work well in scoops.
Don't mean to critise but, it's not exactly finished. The hole for the speaker ain't cut out and the 'scoop' slope is not there.
Well you could bend some 3mm ply by putting the ply in the bath and put some bricks at each side, carefully filling up the bath with boiling water[eg from kettle] in the bath
will make the ply bend if it's thin 3mm.
Then do the same to another 3mm piece of ply.
Then glue the two pieces together and nail or screw them to the box to make the slope.
Alternatively you could get a normal piece of 3/4 inch mdf or ply and put it at an angle to make the slope,although the scope would be steeper effect the response.
The driver cut out hole can be made with a jigsaw and a drill to make a hole for the blade to pass through or a router.
The hole has to be slightly smaller than the driver itself.
Fix the driver to the box using T-nuts and drill small holes for them and screw type bolts to hold the driver,which you can buy from most handware stores.
If you want to paint the cabinet,install the driver last.
Either use a couple of cans of matt black spray paint, wear mask and glothes and do in area which crappy otherwise newspaper everywhere
.Or use black paint in a tin.To protect the driver from damage buy a 15 inch round metal grille and 4 metal clamps and 4 more t-nuts and screw-bolts to secure the grille to the driver.
And a speakon connector on metal plate for pro use or a gold plated or red/black binding post for home use.
Use 18 gauge ofc cable inside minimum, I prefer to use between 10-16 gauge ofc[Oxygen Free Copper] cable for bass bins
And it's better to use spade type crimp connections to driver instead of direct solder to stronger joint.
Then add the finishing touches, plastic or metal corners, metal spring loaded handles or metal bar handles to sides or top and castors[wheels] to bottom.
The cheapest driver which works ok in scoops is the Eminence Delta 15 rated 400w rms,56 oz mag,2.5 inch vc,40hz-4khz, and costs £65,as it says in my Eminence High Power enclosure design and construction book, that all the Eminence speakers except Alpha,Beta,Kilomax work well in scoops.
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Also what is it built out of Darkm8n???
Plywood or MDF or crappy chipboard.
Plywood is very good,lightish and pretty strong but expensive
MDF is heavy,very heavy in big enclosures like your one so your need castors[wheels] on bottom and spring loaded handles to move it about.And MDF is cheaper than ply and also pretty strong.
Chipboard is awful crap which breaks easily and only ok if you do not plan to move them about and is about 1 inch thick.
Well the cerment loaded grades of chipboard are very heavy and not that stronger but better than normal chipboard, but not as good as MDF.
So I'd say ply for big enclosures you wish to move about unless your on a low budget then use 3/4 inch MDF and use castors and metal spring handles.
Small boxes like, tweeter array boxes for pa system can be made of MDF.
NO chipboard for anything except small hifi speakers and big-ish speakers you never move about.
Also what is it built out of Darkm8n???
Plywood or MDF or crappy chipboard.
Plywood is very good,lightish and pretty strong but expensive
MDF is heavy,very heavy in big enclosures like your one so your need castors[wheels] on bottom and spring loaded handles to move it about.And MDF is cheaper than ply and also pretty strong.
Chipboard is awful crap which breaks easily and only ok if you do not plan to move them about and is about 1 inch thick.
Well the cerment loaded grades of chipboard are very heavy and not that stronger but better than normal chipboard, but not as good as MDF.
So I'd say ply for big enclosures you wish to move about unless your on a low budget then use 3/4 inch MDF and use castors and metal spring handles.
Small boxes like, tweeter array boxes for pa system can be made of MDF.
NO chipboard for anything except small hifi speakers and big-ish speakers you never move about.
Hmm..
The box isn't finish yet , as the scoop shape is missing ... i will build them and finish all the speaker with some good textile material , specialy for speaker .
I use 18 mm MDF , yes , the box is very heavy .. al least 80 kg .
For me .. a 15 years old kid .. i can't move it .. or if i struggle a bit .. a can only drag it ...
Hope it will sound good , promise to post a picture after i finish this cab , with all the accessiories and everythink , including driver , an Selenium driver or an Eminence .
I know how to make the curve board , thank's for the explication !
I make it but i didn't fix it inside the cab .
Hope this work isn't for a crap sound ....
Bye ,
The box isn't finish yet , as the scoop shape is missing ... i will build them and finish all the speaker with some good textile material , specialy for speaker .
I use 18 mm MDF , yes , the box is very heavy .. al least 80 kg .
For me .. a 15 years old kid .. i can't move it .. or if i struggle a bit .. a can only drag it ...
Hope it will sound good , promise to post a picture after i finish this cab , with all the accessiories and everythink , including driver , an Selenium driver or an Eminence .
I know how to make the curve board , thank's for the explication !
I make it but i didn't fix it inside the cab .
Hope this work isn't for a crap sound ....
Bye ,
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