Tux,
Looks like Niklas is missing the "physical" side of bass produced by larger drivers. but 2 x TH might be too much for a room of this size.
Coniston^2 is likely to provide some impact, but if placed so close, is likely to get boomy.
Niklas,
Your amp is connected to the Xonar?
Niklas - the room hasn't gotten any bigger, even though your aspirations have, and eventually you'll reach the limitations of bass it can be cleanly supported without substantial and space consuming acoustical treatment.
I think I'm with cogitech on this one - the dual driver Castle Microtower might be a better solution for your upgrade - indeed it probably was (or should have been) recommended earlier. They are a much simpler build than your existing MarKels, or some of the other larger dual driver designs, take up the same or less floor space than the stands in your photo, and certainly do not lack for bass extension and impact over the MarKels (although perhaps at a small sacrifice in "finesse")
Even though you have a nice pair of baffles with your new EL70s, the MT might be a better fit for now - I do suspect there'll be other projects sometime soon. I'd start with the treated drivers on the front, and stock on the top.
ps; just try to budget for plywood this time
I think I'm with cogitech on this one - the dual driver Castle Microtower might be a better solution for your upgrade - indeed it probably was (or should have been) recommended earlier. They are a much simpler build than your existing MarKels, or some of the other larger dual driver designs, take up the same or less floor space than the stands in your photo, and certainly do not lack for bass extension and impact over the MarKels (although perhaps at a small sacrifice in "finesse")
Even though you have a nice pair of baffles with your new EL70s, the MT might be a better fit for now - I do suspect there'll be other projects sometime soon. I'd start with the treated drivers on the front, and stock on the top.
ps; just try to budget for plywood this time
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The problem I find with the microtower is the height. It's way too low to put the drivers at ear-height.
too low?
You can always increase the height to get the forward facing drivers to ear height, partition off the increase in height within the enclosure and fill it with crushed glass (the cheapest and easiest medium I have seen to fill stands with at least here in Western Canada). Mount the enclosure to an over-sized plinth and add cones or adjustable spikes
You can always increase the height to get the forward facing drivers to ear height, partition off the increase in height within the enclosure and fill it with crushed glass (the cheapest and easiest medium I have seen to fill stands with at least here in Western Canada). Mount the enclosure to an over-sized plinth and add cones or adjustable spikes
Don't forget that with one driving up-firing, the mid and high frequency dispersion pattern is significantly different.
Stew - IINM these are MLTLs, one could probably play with the aspect ratio of CSA within reason, but "line" length can't be messed about with much.
As for glass as fill, you wanna be really careful - kitty litter is much less hazardous IMO
Here's an idea I've been mulling. Build a second pair of Markels. Turn the top one upside down and face forward like Markel^2 or face it sideways like Conistan^2 or face it backwards like a bipole or finally, face it upwards like a microtower castle. Lots of fun. I'd still want to add some bass support like a pair of the single el-166 ml-tls.
Indeed. I was worried about driver height at one point before building my mTs, but with the "castle" style build there is plenty of vertical dispersion of the mids and highs. I can stand up and walk around the room without missing much. I can often even still hear stereo separation (with very clear mids/highs) over in our adjoining kitchen.
They can always be tilted, as well, which results in more directional sound from the front drivers and the top drivers reflecting more aggressively from the back wall (rather than ceiling). I decided that this simply wasn't necessary for full enjoyment, but for other people in other rooms, it might just be the ticket.
"indeed", indeed - one of the options in the extensive plan set shows variations of angled tops, up to 45` - IINM Zia in Bangladesh built a pair. When I get around to another pair of these (might be Alpair7.3) they'll have a gentle 5` forward facing angle to the top - that angle worked out quite well for the FH3 and original Tysen FAST.
I considered doing a 5 or 10 degree forward angle as well (I think we discussed it, actually) but then when it came time to actually start cutting I chickened out and went with 90 degree angles; "KISS" always works better for me if I am in the early stages of a new hobby. Next time around, perhaps I will attempt an angled top, and proper rebated driver holes (rather than my 1/4" baffle plates).
But to be more on topic; I have not heard Niklas' Mar-Kels, of course, but I must say that just by looking at his setup, my gut tells me that my microTowers would certainly produce far more bass impact. Perhaps more than he might expect.
Niklas, if you think about it, a microTower doubles the amount of drivers producing bass in your room, but furthermore, they are in cabinets specifically designed to more fully utilize the EL70 low end and they throw all that extra, optimized bass right to the floor where your room can do the most with it. I think the difference would not be subtle at all.
(and I will add a second vote for Baltic Birch this time around, regardless of what box you choose)
a little extra on your next payslip...
seriously, this is a particularly synergistic combination
Yes, I kind of miss the "physical" part of it. Helped a friend yesterday to connect some old Pioneer stuff to his computer (it was mid 70's stuff) and they sure had some physical punch, hence the 10" woofers.
My amp is not connected to the Xonar. For that I'd need a ~6m long RCA cable and I haven't got to the point of making any yet. Using optical instead and using the built-in DAC in the HK.
That sounds like bad to me... I don't want to miss any finesse in my next build, I'd rather gain some.
Edit: But I must add that the Mar-Kel70 sounds extremely good to the old Metallica, been listening through the Kill 'Em All album several times the last couple of days and it sounds extremely good! But some more physical punch could make it better
According to Rod Elliot, at 300Hz, the power is split equally between low pass and high pass.
Bass, however, tends to be more dynamic (apparently), so needs greater headroom. (I'd put this more down to the music you're playing.) Bass drivers also tend to be low sensitivity, so need more oomph to keep up with a higher efficiency mid. I'm using 12:1 (bass:mid) and the :1 clips first.
I'm also still skeptical about how much actual bass 4x3" drivers will actually produce. I've heard the Alpair 7s, the CHP and CHR70, and while they all did well for what they are, they (I felt) didn't keep up with larger systems so well (for example, we switched from the FH3s to a larger pair of speakers, and another octave of bass suddenly appeared).
Chris
I gotta disagree with some of the last comments. 4 EL70s isn't going to do it.
Pursue the FAST. In bass, displacement is 90% of the equation. The el70 gives about 200 cm cubed. Compare that to the SB I suggested that gives over 1200 cm cubed, is higher sensitivity, and higher power handling. You are going to make way more bass. On top of all that, you're relieving the el70 of bass duty so it make awesome mids and treble for you.
IMO, the greatest downfall of all full range drivers, is bass. Take care of the bass, you start to really have something.
Pursue the FAST. In bass, displacement is 90% of the equation. The el70 gives about 200 cm cubed. Compare that to the SB I suggested that gives over 1200 cm cubed, is higher sensitivity, and higher power handling. You are going to make way more bass. On top of all that, you're relieving the el70 of bass duty so it make awesome mids and treble for you.
IMO, the greatest downfall of all full range drivers, is bass. Take care of the bass, you start to really have something.
power ratios for bi-amp system
Chris661:
My preference is 10:1 for the mid-bass:mid tweet, and that's what I usually try to follow. If using a full-range driver for the mid-tweet, I think this can be relaxed a bit depending on sensitivity of the drivers, particularly if the mid-bass driver is much more sensitive (ie: 96dB for mid-bass and 86dB for mid-tweet). I usually try to cross-over at 200Hz or lower, others may try something higher or lower. I am only suggesting what I have found that has worked for me.
from the ESP website: f3 = 115 / B = XXX Hz,
where B is baffle width in meters . Rewritten for cm measurements this becomes f3= 1150/B, where B is in cm. if not using metric measures, just remember that 2.54 cm:= 1 inch, so just multiply B (in inches) by 2.54cm/inch.
Here's an example. I have some Merrill DCA5.5 drivers in a cabinet with baffle width= 9-5/8" --->(approx) 24.45 cm (or .2445m), which results in f3 of (approx) 47Hz. I don't use any BSC with these drivers, and they can sound a little light in the bass. So any tuning that I can do to help the bass needs to be accomplished. So I opened up the enclosure (formerly salvaged sealed boxes) by removing the (terrible) terminal cups, and stuffing a balled up sock into the hole. The result ? A "tuned by ear" aperiodic that has lots of bass .
Obviously this will not work for OBs types, but they can be adjusted using electronic cross-overs, a passive circuit, and/or a prudent choice of a driver optimized for OB use. And a FAST (Fullrange And Sub Together?) , bi-amped with a line level x-over and/or passive BSC really seems like the best approach to me.
Chris661:
My preference is 10:1 for the mid-bass:mid tweet, and that's what I usually try to follow. If using a full-range driver for the mid-tweet, I think this can be relaxed a bit depending on sensitivity of the drivers, particularly if the mid-bass driver is much more sensitive (ie: 96dB for mid-bass and 86dB for mid-tweet). I usually try to cross-over at 200Hz or lower, others may try something higher or lower. I am only suggesting what I have found that has worked for me.
from the ESP website: f3 = 115 / B = XXX Hz,
where B is baffle width in meters . Rewritten for cm measurements this becomes f3= 1150/B, where B is in cm. if not using metric measures, just remember that 2.54 cm:= 1 inch, so just multiply B (in inches) by 2.54cm/inch.
Here's an example. I have some Merrill DCA5.5 drivers in a cabinet with baffle width= 9-5/8" --->(approx) 24.45 cm (or .2445m), which results in f3 of (approx) 47Hz. I don't use any BSC with these drivers, and they can sound a little light in the bass. So any tuning that I can do to help the bass needs to be accomplished. So I opened up the enclosure (formerly salvaged sealed boxes) by removing the (terrible) terminal cups, and stuffing a balled up sock into the hole. The result ? A "tuned by ear" aperiodic that has lots of bass
. Obviously this will not work for OBs types, but they can be adjusted using electronic cross-overs, a passive circuit, and/or a prudent choice of a driver optimized for OB use. And a FAST (Fullrange And Sub Together?) , bi-amped with a line level x-over and/or passive BSC really seems like the best approach to me.
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Edit: But I must add that the Mar-Kel70 sounds extremely good to the old Metallica, been listening through the Kill 'Em All album several times the last couple of days and it sounds extremely good! But some more physical punch could make it better
Kill 'Em All is one of my all time fav albums. The songs are awesome! But the recording IIRC is on the thin side.
Xonar STX bass is sweet - robust and musical. Make sure you try it out with your current set of speakers.
After reiterating my concern about room dimension limitations, and the fact that Niklas already has 2 pairs of EL70s, a narrow profile enclosure sporting something like at least one side mounted Peerless 835004, SilverFlute, or..... ( name your favorite flavor of affordable 6-8" woofer ) crossed over in the 300 HZ range should be sufficient .
Certainly worked well enough for the Tysen. (SDX7 in this case, 'cause we had a bunch)
Certainly worked well enough for the Tysen. (SDX7 in this case, 'cause we had a bunch)
Hevily dependent on the relative efficiencies of the speaker and the choosen XO.
My current set up is 80:4. Top runs out 1st.
dave
of course Dave...
Just curious, what amps you using presently? I may have to relegate the old B-2 for sub use, and crank the gain up on it to 11, mainly to bug you and chris. They (the B-2 amps) reportedly clip at 270 W/ch (read that someplace), so could match to a 2 watt/ch SE amp (Decware). Then I could be at 135:1
Nice ratio 80:4, doesn't that mean 20:1, or are you listing the actual output of your amps in Watts/ch? In that case I could be 270:2
Just curious, what amps you using presently? I may have to relegate the old B-2 for sub use, and crank the gain up on it to 11
, mainly to bug you and chris. They (the B-2 amps) reportedly clip at 270 W/ch (read that someplace), so could match to a 2 watt/ch SE amp (Decware). Then I could be at 135:1Nice ratio 80:4, doesn't that mean 20:1, or are you listing the actual output of your amps in Watts/ch? In that case I could be 270:2
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