Some help building a PA please? W-Bins??

[SmokeyJoe]

I'm a DJ and i do a lot of outdoor events, so after much research i've decided to build a modest Full-Range horn loaded PA.

So, i'm going to build 2x Mid/Top cabs and 2x Subs (W-Bins). My question here for you guys is will that set-up be okay, my Grandad is more than capable of building the cabs but he doesnt know anything about all the T/S and all that, and to be perfectly honest neither do i. But i've found these plans and put them on here for you to give me some feedback (please).

http://zmatek.jinak.cz/diy/pbaudio/w-eliminator/show_construction.asp.html
(Yeah, the plans are dutch...but the front elevation and plan view are there with all the measurements)

So for the subs then i've chosen the W-Bin design, and from what i've figured so far - its an old design? In any case would two of these loaded with Eminence Beta 15"s do? @ 8OHMS each my Hill DX1500 will power em' good! I'm using a Behringer Super-X Pro CX2310 crossover to split the signal at 250Hz for the subs and i need them ideally to go all the way down to 40~45Hz. Here's a link to my drivers with all the T/S:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=20900&criteria=General Drivers&doy=18m8

Please help me out, i'm just starting out and need all the help i can get

Thanks, Joe.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

I'll just caution that W-bins are designed to be used in multiples,
the bass performance of one a side is likely to be very dissapointing.

So your going for a "full range horn loaded" P.A., erm... why ?

Next question : Short, Medium or Long throw ?

If you don't understand the question, you need to do more research.

/sreten.

 

[phase_accurate]

The expression W-bin is used for both - a class of single-folded cabs like the one you posted - but also for a specific model which is significantly larger than the whimpy one that you posted.
There were designs with 1x18" or 2x15" (the 18" being the original AFAIK). It was a hybrid design using a single-folded horn like you posted and some reflex loading below.

Regards

Charles

 

[mike.e]

SmokeyJoe

This is mainly a home audio forum

: Go to speakerplans.com /forum. The guys there will gladly help.

There are a variety of well tried designs there for you to make.

If your doing indoor gigs id probably just go ~5cubic ft ported boxes for 15"s or 18"s.

Tops will depend on many things!

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Hmmm, Okay. I had looked on SpeakerPlans and i couldent find a Sub design i liked. They have to be single 15" and be able to cover the entire bass frequencys on their own.

I'm going with Horn Loaded cabnets due to their efficiency compared to conventional vented or closed box enclosures. I am looking for long-bass (and i was led to believe that W-Bins are long throw deigns) and the Mid/Top are already built for medium/long throw. I have done a fair bit of research actually. Everyone's a beginner at first, sreten.

So what are your reccomendations as far as the subs are concerned? I've gotta use the Eminence Beta 15's because i'm salvaging them from a pair of AC Euro shitters. The drivers themselves are good, its just a 15" Driver covering frequencys from 35-1000Hz causes inter-modulation distortion and is a bad design imho.

I need two subs. Will the W Bin design i've got work for me if i port it? The Beta 15's resonance is 35Hz whiich is quite low.

I've only got a small car to transport the speakers, hence the small cabnet design i attached in my previous post.

Thanks. Joe.

 

[mike.e]

How much excursion does the Beta 15" have?You need SOME even on a horn.If you want ONE sub per side, DONT build the Wbin.
Super cheap drivers,especially MID type of drivers dont have the excursion required for deep bass.

Ok so bass reflex a Kappa pro or similar ,per side. There must be a bass reflex design around for one.



Then consider mid. If you go hornloaded mid youl have to have a horn cutoff of near 150hz if you go for a Mt122 type of thing,otherwise the cabinet gets prohibatively deep.

Theres nothing inherently wrong with a 2way system + sub eg large direct radiator + horn, and a sub for <100hz.

I still reccomend you to go to speakerplans forum.

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2503&PN=1

?

 

[sreten]

Hi,

W-bins are essentially a very large cabinet broken into pieces
for transport. Bass extension essentially depends on mouth area
and so AFAIK 4 cabinets will go an octave lower than 1 cabinet.
That is the mouth area of one cabinet is too small, the total
design only makes sense considering 3 or 4 together.

The efficiency benefits are there higher up in the range, but if your
after as much low bass as possible nothing beats a vented cabinet
for low bass output and efficiency for a given cabinet size.

But they are not long throw. The Beta15's Qts is also too high
for effective reflexing for bass extension, though venting can be
used for powerhandling.

TBH the beta15 is not an ideal PA driver, you can do much with it
except put it in a sealed cabinet, though whether it can work in
a horn loaded cabinet I've no idea.

/sreten.

 

[sreten]

.........and the Mid/Top are already built for medium/long throw.........
Thanks. Joe.

Hi,

Which means you will also need short throw mid/tops for frontal coverage.

/sreten.

 

[electroaudio]

I am in the same game as you with PA .
And i have found out that it is much easier to fill a box of given size with a larger horn if there is only one pathway instead of two.
I currently have wbins that is much bigger than your example, but my next design will not be wbins.

One design i have been looking at is this, which seems very promising.
http://www.egbeck.de/15bhorn0.htm

Also, i have never managed to simulate a promising horn in hornresp with anyone of the eminence alpha,beta,delta series.
Maybe you should try to find something like a used EVm15 instead, they may even be cheaper.

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Right, I know the Beta 15's aren't ideal, but i'm on a budget and because i've already got them i should really use them. I could try and sell the AC Euro speakers on eBay. There just a basic 15" Bass/Mid with Piezo Horn design. But there nearly new condition, i paid £295 two years ago for the pair.

But assuming i have to use the Beta 15's for my bass cabs and W-Bins are a no-no. Anything horn loaded is a no-no. I've just been on SpeakerPlans.com again and theres hardly any plans for 15" subs, only the HD15 which dosent go low enough for me! Also there designed for use in stacks of at least 6 bins.

I've got the plans for my Mid/Top cabnets (there 1x 10" Mid and 1x 1" Comp Horn). I'm putting Eminence Delta 10's in there because they have a nice EBP (FS/QES) of 188 which is good for horn loading i understand.

So some suggestions on what to build for bass cabs then please.

Thanks, Joe.

 

[pinkmouse]

...only the HD15 which dosent go low enough for me...

40-50Hz is plenty low enough for PA/disco use, any lower and you end up with huge heavy boxes and amps, for no real gain.

 

[electroaudio]

40-50Hz is plenty low enough for PA/disco use, any lower and you end up with huge heavy boxes and amps, for no real gain.

In my personal opinion, going lower will just make the sound muddy, and most DJs i have encountered usually agrees.
(Even if they dont know it , since i am the one with the hands on the dsp)

There is a saying: If the DJ wants more lowbass then he actually wants more highbass, and i havent yet encountered a situation where that rule isnt true...

I know the Beta 15's aren't ideal, but i'm on a budget and because i've already got them i should really use them. I could try and sell the AC Euro speakers on eBay.

There is an another route to go here...
Design a basshorn that will give good response with the driver you will buy in the future, and also design the same box to "get the job done dirty" for your current speaker. beta 15 is no ideal driver but they will make sound...

I have tried to attach a picture of a simulation of the horn i mentioned earlier with beta15.
-As a reference, the gray line is jbl 2226 in the same cab.

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Thank you, electroaudio!

That will be my solution, that is if i can build that thing!

I'll the ******* in and try and flatten out the reponse with my eq. I've got an SPL meter so this will be possible, i dont know what the results will be like however it will get the job done, and i'm sure the new system will sound better than my old one: 2x AC Euro AC115's for full range. Yuck

I'll build 2 of them complicated horns and then in 6~7 months i'll stick a real nice driver in them! Whats the ideal driver for them? Lets hear yur suggestions. The JBL one you modelled in Hornresp??

Thanks for your help!

- Joe.

 

[pinkmouse]

Mind your language Joe.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I've just been on SpeakerPlans.com again and theres hardly any plans for 15" subs, only the HD15 which dosent go low enough for me! Also there designed for use in stacks of at least 6 bins.

Don't get too carried away looking at the specs, lower is nice obviously - but lower means LARGER and MORE EXPENSIVE!. You will have to compromise between size/cost and low end performance.

Generally bass speakers are greatly improved by using them in stacked multiples - great if you've got a Luton van stood around doing nothing, but in the real world it's not often an option!.

I've got a Fiat Punto and I transport ALL the band gear in it (except for the drums) - I use either a pair of 1x12's or 1x15's for main PA. You don't get gut moving bass, but it sounds like a band!, which is what it's supposed to do!.

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Sorry

 

[electroaudio]

Thank you, electroaudio!

That will be my solution, that is if i can build that thing!

I'll the ******* in and try and flatten out the reponse with my eq. I've got an SPL meter so this will be possible, i dont know what the results will be like however it will get the job done, and i'm sure the new system will sound better than my old one: 2x AC Euro AC115's for full range. Yuck

I'll build 2 of them complicated horns and then in 6~7 months i'll stick a real nice driver in them! Whats the ideal driver for them? Lets hear yur suggestions. The JBL one you modelled in Hornresp??

Thanks for your help!

- Joe.

The driver the horn was intended for in the beginning was actually EVm15L. Its response is almost identical to jbl2226 and i suspect that most drivers with the necessary specifications will be similar too.
- But if you go that route, then a test in hornresp is a good idea just in case...

Horns are a bit harder to build.
But if you are carefully with the angles (And the measurements ofcourse) when you cut out the pieces and build it from inside out.
Then it wont be that hard, just take it carefully, and dont rush it.

You could also try to assemble the horn once before you glue it together.
That way you know that the pieces fits together and you get a good idea about how to do it for real.

 

[mike.e]

So youve chosen your tops. thats a start.The only issue with 10" or 12" on midhorn,is that your sub needs to reach up to ~200hz to meet the horn. Which plan did you decide on?

Now you need to decide what sub to use. IE whats affordable,and how low it should go. From memory the JBL srx series is -3dB at 45hz or so so id aim for that.

You could cheat,and use an average car audio 15" on a 6th order bandpass box,boosting the efficiency between 50-100hz up to the same as a pro driver.

 

[phase_accurate]

Since quantity seems to be more important than quality you can try some boom-box tuning with this driver that has a quite high a Qts. This would give you some additional dBs for free at the cost of transient performance. And the box-size would be reasonable as well. But you definitely must use a subsonic filter in this case (recommended with turntables anyway).

Regards

Charles

 

[electroaudio]

Since quantity seems to be more important than quality

???
I cant answer for him, but how did you come up with that conclution??