I have access to a supply of UPOCC gauge 14 solid single core , as well as multistrand hook-up wire from Neotech.(www.neotechcable.com)
I am just wondering which type( solid core or multistrand) is better for the application in terms of sonic quality, for high tension voltage for single-ended power amp project?
i am seeking comments and opinions here. TIA.
I am just wondering which type( solid core or multistrand) is better for the application in terms of sonic quality, for high tension voltage for single-ended power amp project?
i am seeking comments and opinions here. TIA.
People will argue that there is a sonic difference. Whether there is or not, having used stranded to hook up my recent amp, I will definitely use solid next time. It is much easier to position things in point-to-point wriing with solid wire. There is also no danger of a rogue strand touching something it shouldn't.
for dealing with 9-pin tube sockets, small terminal boards and for routing - solid-core is preferred. I have some really nice Teflon stranded wire that I bought for my latest project, but it turned out to be a pain to use compared (as Ray pointed out) to solid-core.
I won't get into the sonic differences being I've never A/B-ed solid versus stranded in the same unit.
I won't get into the sonic differences being I've never A/B-ed solid versus stranded in the same unit.
I have to agree with solid core, just because it is easier to work with.
However, 14gauge is kinda big for signal wiring...you might want to consider something between 18gauge and 24gauge. 20 gauge is a nice standard hookup wire.
I use teflon-coated solid core wire from CAT-5 wire. At 24-gauge, it is a bit delicate, but works great. And it is quite inexpensive.
For my high-current heaters, I use RadioShack 18-gauge wire. I had some 14-gauge, but after twisting the heater wires together, the combined run was just two difficult to use.
However, 14gauge is kinda big for signal wiring...you might want to consider something between 18gauge and 24gauge. 20 gauge is a nice standard hookup wire.
I use teflon-coated solid core wire from CAT-5 wire. At 24-gauge, it is a bit delicate, but works great. And it is quite inexpensive.
For my high-current heaters, I use RadioShack 18-gauge wire. I had some 14-gauge, but after twisting the heater wires together, the combined run was just two difficult to use.
SY said:
Sy,
Could you enlighten us a little more about this type of failure? I've been using milspec stranded silver plated teflon wire for years, and haven't seen this. But who knows? Perhaps I've been lucky. For the record, I use this because: 1/ I got lots of it years ago for nearly nothing 2/ Despite being stranded, it's easy to solder and work with, as it doesn't suffer from BSBP (Bloody Shrink-Back Phenomena).
I'll leave it's sonic advantages to the endless debate of the ages! 
SY said:
I don't disagree, but I will say that it's not always easy to strip a tough insulation like Teflon without digging too deep and nicking the strands. I use either an Ideal stripper with very sharp precision dies for each wire gauge, or, as per military construction, a thermal stripper (but don't breath those fumes!).
I agree that solid core is way easier to dress in the chassis.
What about solid core Vs stranded when wiring speakers. Any noteworthy difference?
I only ask because I have been following a long and getting heated thread in a guitar amp forum.
Some of the claims seem pretty far fetched.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=195926
I have used both, though I never noticed the difference, Then again, I was not listening for a difference.
I like building with solid more so than stranded, But just because it holds shape and position better. I bet 60% of the time I still wire most of my builds with stranded just because I have a lot of it.
Trout
I only ask because I have been following a long and getting heated thread in a guitar amp forum.
Some of the claims seem pretty far fetched.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=195926
I have used both, though I never noticed the difference, Then again, I was not listening for a difference.
I like building with solid more so than stranded, But just because it holds shape and position better. I bet 60% of the time I still wire most of my builds with stranded just because I have a lot of it.
Trout
ArtG said:
Sy,
Could you enlighten us a little more about this type of failure? I've been using milspec stranded silver plated teflon wire for years, and haven't seen this. But who knows? Perhaps I've been lucky. For the record, I use this because: 1/ I got lots of it years ago for nearly nothing 2/ Despite being stranded, it's easy to solder and work with, as it doesn't suffer from BSBP (Bloody Shrink-Back Phenomena).
When I get home tonight, I'll dig up a little gem I found from Bob Pease on this issue. I had just finished doing the umpteenth repair on my preamp because of these failures when I ran across his explanation of why it happens and how to avoid it. I ignored the latter and just switched to solid core for internal wiring.
I've have been doing alot of prototypes lately. Nothing beats the ease of tinned solid wire and matching gauge teflon tubing. The tubing DOES cost a small fortune. For my purposes the ease and speed are worth it.
I would have to think this approach would be great for P-P chassis wiring as well.
Soldering stranded wire is problematic for many reasons. One is the creation of a stress riser in the strands at the point where the solder stops wicking between the strands. U.L and others will not approve soldered stranded in many instances unless special precautions are taken.
I'm curious to see what SY can tell us from Lord Pease.
I would have to think this approach would be great for P-P chassis wiring as well.
Soldering stranded wire is problematic for many reasons. One is the creation of a stress riser in the strands at the point where the solder stops wicking between the strands. U.L and others will not approve soldered stranded in many instances unless special precautions are taken.
I'm curious to see what SY can tell us from Lord Pease.
Brian Beck said:
I also agree that solid core is easier to wire a chassis with!
After working with teflon coated wire for sometime, mostly in my computer networking past, and toughing it out with a number of differant wire strippers, and occasional colorful language, I stumbled on what I feel is a much better method. If you use a very sharp blade and carefully nick the insulation on both sides of the wire, then bend the wire back and forth a little, the teflon will crack and separate the whole way around. The insulation then pulls cleanly off the wire! 'Course it was a suprise to me to see the same technique described in Morgan Jones' "building" book!
I've never seen a "thermal stripper" but it sure sound exciting, if not a little "risque"!
I'm confused about the difficulty people have in stripping and soldering stranded teflon wire. I've been using it for over 30yrs and have never had a joint failure - and I just prefer it. I actually find solid wire to be less reliable in applications where modifications occur on a frequent basis.
I use kimber tcss for signal wiring and surplus milspec stranded silver plated teflon wire for power supply stuff.
I use mainly 18 and 20ga stranded in my projects. (High current filaments are an exception, here I use stranded irradiated pvc of the appropriate gauge for the current required.) I almost never use straight pvc due to the shrinkage problem.
Sometimes I like a little solid silver wire in low level applications, and you can get this from some jewelers for chump change. I insulate it with teflon tubing.
I often use 14ga romex which I tin with silver solder for ground busses.
SY I would be interested in the Bob Pease article as I have never run across this problem in the hundreds of amps I built and am quite curious about the issue. I recently scrapped my 15yr old pre-amp and saw no evidence of this problem. I always use a manual wire stripper and strip by feel.
I use kimber tcss for signal wiring and surplus milspec stranded silver plated teflon wire for power supply stuff.
I use mainly 18 and 20ga stranded in my projects. (High current filaments are an exception, here I use stranded irradiated pvc of the appropriate gauge for the current required.) I almost never use straight pvc due to the shrinkage problem.
Sometimes I like a little solid silver wire in low level applications, and you can get this from some jewelers for chump change. I insulate it with teflon tubing.
I often use 14ga romex which I tin with silver solder for ground busses.
SY I would be interested in the Bob Pease article as I have never run across this problem in the hundreds of amps I built and am quite curious about the issue. I recently scrapped my 15yr old pre-amp and saw no evidence of this problem. I always use a manual wire stripper and strip by feel.
ArtG said:I've never seen a "thermal stripper" but it sure sound exciting, if not a little "risque"!
Exciting no, sorry. Risky perhaps, due to the vaporized Teflon, but not risqué,
When I was a younger pup, I was a design engineer for US military and NASA projects. Whatever else you may think of those two institutions, they certainly had studied and worked out the details of making high-reliability electronic equipment. So, I usually accepted without question those techniques for my own projects, whenever feasible. Things may have changed since, but back then the ONLY acceptable way to strip Teflon-insulated wires was to use a thermal stripper. Once you get used to using one, they are fast and easy. Kind of like other "strippers" you may have heard of.
The following link has a picture of the same model "Stripall" that I use. The tips get up to 1700 deg. F almost instantaneously (orange hot). I've never done business with the linked company; I just found it on a Google search to show you what I mean. The prices are higher than I would have expected. (I got mine surplus for, ah, $5.00.) No telling what’s on eBay. If anyone uses one of these, seriously, do take care to avoid the roasted Teflon. I use an exhaust fan with a “snorkel” near my work spot to suck the nasty fumes to the great outdoors.
Thermal stripper ad
The key line on that page is, "combines high production rates with consistently high wiring reliability".
Basically, the goal of NASA is not to just produce a reliable strip, but a lot of them, and by a potentially large population of assemblers. Variability with this tool is eliminated, and the chances of either nicking solid core or cutting strands of multi are all but eliminated.
These types of tools are necessary in production, but seems like quite overkill for the single assembler, such as the DIY'ers. We are not under production requirements, nor would I think about letting my neighbor strip or solder a single point in my build. I can be consistent and repeatable, with a simple Klein stripper and small needle nose. And if my work is not perfect, I cut off the end and try again.
There is a lot to be said, however, for what we can learn from manufacturers. I worked at a drive manufacturer for a few years, and they used strictly Amp crimp terminals for sizes 8 and smaller. When I first started, I thought, wow, I can save us money by using Panduit. They laughed at me. They had spent hours with calibrated pull test jigs, and performed statistical analysis, ampacity/voltage drop, etc. I can honestly say, today I use strictly Amp lugs with a ratcheting crimper, and there is no comparison to the quality difference.
Basically, the goal of NASA is not to just produce a reliable strip, but a lot of them, and by a potentially large population of assemblers. Variability with this tool is eliminated, and the chances of either nicking solid core or cutting strands of multi are all but eliminated.
These types of tools are necessary in production, but seems like quite overkill for the single assembler, such as the DIY'ers. We are not under production requirements, nor would I think about letting my neighbor strip or solder a single point in my build. I can be consistent and repeatable, with a simple Klein stripper and small needle nose. And if my work is not perfect, I cut off the end and try again.
There is a lot to be said, however, for what we can learn from manufacturers. I worked at a drive manufacturer for a few years, and they used strictly Amp crimp terminals for sizes 8 and smaller. When I first started, I thought, wow, I can save us money by using Panduit. They laughed at me. They had spent hours with calibrated pull test jigs, and performed statistical analysis, ampacity/voltage drop, etc. I can honestly say, today I use strictly Amp lugs with a ratcheting crimper, and there is no comparison to the quality difference.
Kevin, I found it. It was indeed in the Analog Troubleshooting book. Pease related problems he had with Teflon-insulated stranded wire because of the silver plating. He found that solder tended to wick between the strands causing an embrittlement where the solder ended. No problem if the wires were unbend or unstrained, but with bending and strain, he's seen failure. I wonder, given the different experiences, if this could be a function of the exact type of solder/flux used...?
The trick of nicking opposite sides of a Teflon jacket never worked for me. Unless I go all the way around with a sharp blade, the insulation doesn't separate cleanly and the PTFE tends to form hairs (polymer guys will know this as elongation).
The trick of nicking opposite sides of a Teflon jacket never worked for me. Unless I go all the way around with a sharp blade, the insulation doesn't separate cleanly and the PTFE tends to form hairs (polymer guys will know this as elongation).
I dug around a bit as well. U.L. will permit the soldering of stranded wire directly to/into circuit boards as long as the wire is restrained permanently in place near the solder joint (wire-tie) PRIOR to soldering. This is done to prevent flexing at the point where the wicking stops.
AMP and Molex both make nifty crimp terminals to connect stranded wires to circuit boards. These crimps prevent the solder from wicking up the wire, provide strain relief, and hold the wire in place while soldering (no third hand).
Useless to DIY'ers because they are only available for automatic wire machines.
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