Audiophilenoob said:
sir I do not jest...
my mother, g/f and myself all agree... the single lambda is superior...
my mom's exact words were "I can not believe it... it sounds like a real guitarist 3 feet away"
the on-axis response is flat to 5khz+...
not to mention the way it sounds is something a person needs to hear to understand... distortion is astronomically low... it's the only speaker currently available that beats the TAD 16" speaker in every way
We all liked the single 15" in dipole better than the Sophia, ML summit, and BW 800
Should be an incredibly nice speaker once you've got the setup to get the best out of the drivers.
Audiophilenoob said:
You should take in look the construction thread that I started.
The setup your using won't do it justice for sure. I thought that my RME was the dogs but oh how wrong I was.
I swapped out my clock too for an Antelope Isochrone OCX and got a big improvement in clarity.
There's FIR filters and DRC too that you could look into.
Surely you jest? A single 15" with a bit of EQ sounds better than the 800 or Sophia?
Any Lambda TD15 user will tell you the same story. EQ that
woofer, play it full range and you will be able to fool people that
they are listening to a 3 way loudspeaker. It's not a tweeter by
any means but you can really play with people's mind. It's a
wideband woofer with 10mm linear xmax {tested closer to 16mm}, 500w rms power handling, phase plug to reduce IM distortion, and very low inductance. The only thing better was the
Apollo Lambda where is uses more shorting rings to get
inductance very low.
The standard Lambda is somewhere in the 0.2, 0.3mH range,
much lower than the common woofer with 2.0 mH ratings -hehe
It's a giant midrange with woofer clothing
Nick said
the overal design gives it the SQ, not one particular element.
Shorting rings, phase plug, cone shape, etc. It took alot of
experimentation to get the woofer right in design.
If that's true then I guess I need to stop work on everything I'm doing right now and get building something with Lambda's
There is nothing stopping you from building more loudspeakers.
The only issue is getting Lambda product as parts inventory was sold
to another person who builds them, theres is a waiting period, maybe a month or two.
The Lambda would mate very nice to the ATC, I can't think of
many 15" woofers that would handle an ATC integration well.
I haven't tested the ATC so I can't offer any specifics.
You can take the Lambda woofer easy into any crossover region
you set your ATC at, the only issue I see is you have to place the
woofer up closer to the midrange for best integration. Some people say to place the woofer closer to the ground for better
bass coupling but that is not good in this application. You want
best midrange/woofer blending and with a 15" woofer up higher than normal, you still have tons of bass output.
You can easily beat the 8" Seas woofer if you play your cards
right.
Any Lambda TD15 user will tell you the same story. EQ that
woofer, play it full range and you will be able to fool people that
they are listening to a 3 way loudspeaker. It's not a tweeter by
any means but you can really play with people's mind. It's a
wideband woofer with 10mm linear xmax {tested closer to 16mm}, 500w rms power handling, phase plug to reduce IM distortion, and very low inductance. The only thing better was the
Apollo Lambda where is uses more shorting rings to get
inductance very low.
The standard Lambda is somewhere in the 0.2, 0.3mH range,
much lower than the common woofer with 2.0 mH ratings -hehe
It's a giant midrange with woofer clothing
Nick saidthe overal design gives it the SQ, not one particular element.
Shorting rings, phase plug, cone shape, etc. It took alot of
experimentation to get the woofer right in design.
If that's true then I guess I need to stop work on everything I'm doing right now and get building something with Lambda's
There is nothing stopping you from building more loudspeakers.
The only issue is getting Lambda product as parts inventory was sold
to another person who builds them, theres is a waiting period, maybe a month or two.
The Lambda would mate very nice to the ATC, I can't think of
many 15" woofers that would handle an ATC integration well.
I haven't tested the ATC so I can't offer any specifics.
You can take the Lambda woofer easy into any crossover region
you set your ATC at, the only issue I see is you have to place the
woofer up closer to the midrange for best integration. Some people say to place the woofer closer to the ground for better
bass coupling but that is not good in this application. You want
best midrange/woofer blending and with a 15" woofer up higher than normal, you still have tons of bass output.
You can easily beat the 8" Seas woofer if you play your cards
right.
ShinOBIWAN said:
that's just simply not true... the MAudio is capable of bit perfect reproduction out of the analgoue outputs
it's cleaner than my old MSRP $1500 Denon Cd player... and simplier
I know there's lots of different filters like FIR etc .... I wish I could afford something like the full on DEQX... but alast I'm limited with funds
something I might consider is when I hammer out all the details with the active I may just eventually do a full passive... but honestly the results might not even be audible... possibly worse
what do you mean by clock??? I'm unfamiliar with that slang
m0tion said:
in this case it's not true... they used to be quite easy to acquire... and they were STILL absolutely superb
the PHL 1120 is completely sold out in the states... I bought the last 4... from the only US dealer
but again... it's far more performance than hype... I mean there isn't really any "hype" for this speaker in the first place... besides those who have them...
hype is what I would consider the Seas Excel
per db output level I believe the PHL 1120 is the lowest distortion driver... for any given db output level... as long as it's used in it's optimal frequency range... as a pure midrange
only name brand driver I haven't seen tested is that ATC... so it might be superior to the PHL... actually they are quite similar speakers in generally the ATC having better dispersion (smaller) and the PHL having more top end??? I haven't seen an FR for the ATC so I'm not sure...
unless there's a driver out there I haven't heard of to prove this knowledge wrong
m0tion said:
When I see a driver that may fit my design goals, I will buy one
to sample it. I have collected a few drivers over years to
find the ones right for my application.
The drivers that I've found are are expensive, hard to get,
or both.
My favorite tweeter is very expensive, the one that I really
would like to use would cost $3000 each to get. My favorite
midranges are 'out of stock' in the USA, my favorite woofer is in
the hands of one man who holds inventory and builds each one
by hand. My favorite subwoofer are not in production yet.
///
////... the one of many reasons my project is taking literally years to
see light. I've been slowly collecting parts and then finding out
that my house is too small to do what I really want to
do ... ///
////People that can settle for less are the real winners.
Audiophilenoob said:
Which is why you've said this:
An MAudio cards such as the Delta's are good cards but far from the best. Sure you've got a bit perfect transport there but where it all goes wrong is the clocking, DAC's and XO. Your setup is could be improved by not insignificant amounts by doing a few things.
I've got an RME HDSP 9632 and that's an mid level pro card. The SNR is 110dB and the clock jitter around 800ppm, respectable enough but you can do much better especially with the clocking.
I'm looking to upgrade the DAC's at somepoint but I've already upgraded the clock to an Antelope Isochrone that I use as master clock and has jitter at around 0.1ppm or 8000 times better than the RME's jitter. Take a look here:
http://www.antelopeaudio.com/products_iso_ocx.html
I also use FIR filters along with an FIR EQ for the digital room correction and also digital delays for the phase. All this means everything stays in the digital domain right up to the amps.
The improvement I've got over a Behringer DCX2496 is quite laughable. You'll get more improvement from moving over to this type of setup than you would swapping speakers.
Ask RyanC and Vil, they introduced me to all this and I was sceptical but the results speak for themselves. Vastly superior to any passive or analogue active setup for digital audio such as CD, DVD, SACD etc.
Ryan is now running a Pro Tools HD setup and that is definitely something that makes our RME and Maudio cards look like Creative Audigy's
Unfortunately the cost isn't far off what you spent on your speakers though.Most CD players are inferior to a well setup PC.
thylantyr said:
That's definitely true.
I've got a thing about compact speakers though, 15" lambda's would sound good but I'd hate to look at the cabinet everyday.
And there's where we probably differ, a speaker is as much about looks as it is sound for me.
That Sea's will be serviceable in the 80hz-400hz range though.
I've followed Shin's project very closely from the beginning and have messed around a good deal with the FIR filters he's refering to. I've also done a good deal of research into the level of sound equipment he's using and the prices of said equipment. I very much admire Shin's project, every aspect of it in fact. The crossover/playback portion of his setup is better than anything else I've ever heard of and I would imagine it's about as good as it can get. I would have a very similar setup for my (in progress) active 3-ways if not for one thing. It would literally break me financially. He has more in his playback/crossover section than I have in my entire home theater. I think it is very much worth noting that the equipment he's talking about would almost certainly be an improvement over the equipment you're talking about, but it is DEFINATELY in the area of diminishing returns. The clock generator he's refering to is well over $1,000 by itself. He uses two very fast PCs with very expensive sound cards, one for playback and one for crossover/DRC. The financial magnitude of such a setup is easy to underestimate at first glance, especially if you want to actually PURCHASE the software he's using, factor in another several thousand dollars. I thought this was worth pointing out.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Which is why you've said this:
An MAudio cards such as the Delta's are good cards but far from the best. Sure you've got a bit perfect transport there but where it all goes wrong is the clocking, DAC's and XO. Your setup is could be improved by not insignificant amounts by doing a few things.
I've got an RME HDSP 9632 and that's an mid level pro card. The SNR is 110dB and the clock jitter around 800ppm, respectable enough but you can do much better especially with the clocking.
I'm looking to upgrade the DAC's at somepoint but I've already upgraded the clock to an Antelope Isochrone that I use as master clock and has jitter at around 0.1ppm or 8000 times better than the RME's jitter. Take a look here:
http://www.antelopeaudio.com/products_iso_ocx.html
I also use FIR filters along with an FIR EQ for the digital room correction and also digital delays for the phase. All this means everything stays in the digital domain right up to the amps.
The improvement I've got over a Behringer DCX2496 is quite laughable. You'll get more improvement from moving over to this type of setup than you would swapping speakers.
Ask RyanC and Vil, they introduced me to all this and I was sceptical but the results speak for themselves. Vastly superior to any passive or analogue active setup for digital audio such as CD, DVD, SACD etc.
Ryan is now running a Pro Tools HD setup and that is definitely something that makes our RME and Maudio cards look like Creative Audigy's
Most CD players are inferior to a well setup PC.
whoa whoa... slow down
you have the full xover on your PC??? with FIR filters??? jesus man... what program are you using???
I will upgrade tomorrow to the best RME if this is possible!!!
PM me or whatever to discuss this... I looked for this but could NOT for the life of me find an active program for the PC
I was thinking of upgrading to the Maudio 1010... but if you have an xover driver for the PC .... mmmmmmm
details friend... DETAILS!
Audiophilenoob said:
whoa whoa... slow down
you have the full xover on your PC??? with FIR filters??? jesus man... what program are you using???
I will upgrade tomorrow to the best RME if this is possible!!!
PM me or whatever to discuss this... I looked for this but could NOT for the life of me find an active program for the PC
I was thinking of upgrading to the Maudio 1010... but if you have an xover driver for the PC .... mmmmmmm
details friend... DETAILS!
Its 3.00 in the morning here in the UK and I just caught this post before bed
I'll give you a detailed description of the setup I use tommorow but I would imagine it translates perfectly to what you want ie. 3-way XO with auto DRC and FIR with phase correction.
It'll blow your socks off if you mainly listen to digital.
In the mean time do you only listen to music or is DVD playback a part of your setup? Its important to know because the card and addons you need are determined by this.
The improvement I've got over a Behringer DCX2496 is quite laughable. You'll get more improvement from moving over to this type of setup than you would swapping speakers.
Anytime a change is made you can percieve 'good' or 'bad',
I can install an EQ in any system and change the sound
without the user knowing the piece was added. You can really
play with people's mind and tell them you installed the David Blaine
magic box inline with the preouts and sell it to them for big bucks.
Draw me a system diagram 'with Behringer' [before] and with
'antelope' [after] so I can make sense of this. I'm not so quick to
migrate to 'better' electronics because I know too many people
can't hear what they measure but they claim to, and people under
estimate cheap electronics as think there is bad sound.
I've already switched electronics three times after I made
some line arrays {for a friend of mine} for experimentation
purposes. I've been doing audio too long that it shields me from
voodoo and all that crazy audiophile myth that hovers the whole
planet.
The line array calculates at 104dB sensitivity and I can hear
everything. I started with some analog signal processing
that I had laying around. It's works fine, the limitation is
the lack of adjustment I can do to the system. There is nothing
wrong with the sound.
I moved from those units to a Behringer DCX using analog inputs
and been running that for months with better success, not because
the Behringer has special magic over the analog units, rather it has
more adjustments I can make to fine tune the sound. I don't do
many tweaks, just some level controls, crossover tweaks and
two EQ settings that I turn on or off depending on mood. There is
nothing wrong with sound either doing this in spite of three
conversions being done here. It's all good.
The 3rd upgrade was replacing an old CD player with a new
player using the digital outputs driving a Roland digital mixer then
sending digital output to the DCX and bypassing two conversions,
but the Roland up samples the CD to higher bits.
This method was recommended by DIY'ers here because the results
were great. I can honestly say it is great, but no better than
the previous setup. If deleting conversions provides miracles, the
line array would exploit it.
My 4th experiment will be to remove the Roland and use
potetiometers on the DCX outputs to remove another piece of
equipment.
My 5th experiment would be to remove all the digital units,
convert the line array to a 6dB passive crossover network
and remove all the voodoo that is always in debate;
Only 1 conversion;
No bit loss due to digital attenuation;
No extra 'stuff' in the electronics path;
No $1000 clock
I already know what the results will be. The line array will sound
the worse by removing all the stuff that is claimed to be 'bad'
because the real bad stuff really isn't audible and the real
'good stuff' is system tuning regardless of what electronics is
doing that job. :hehe:
Ask RyanC and Vil, they introduced me to all this and I was sceptical but the results speak for themselves.
Where can I get more data about this? To justify $1000 on
a clock seems crazy to me. This reminds of the AVS forum
where people are spending $30k on a preamp and claiming
the sound was better than Jesus' own audio system
That's definitely true.
I've got a thing about compact speakers though, 15" lambda's would sound good but I'd hate to look at the cabinet everyday.
And there's where we probably differ, a speaker is as much about looks as it is sound for me.
That Sea's will be serviceable in the 80hz-400hz range though.
I would hate to look at a cabinet too if it had only 1 Lambda, not big enough
I don't care much about looks as does the sound. The other day
my mind was wandering and I was thinking.. 'If I section off part
of the room and make the section the speaker box, all I do is
cut holes in the wall ... if I move, remove the drivers instead of hauling 1000 pound cabinets. The lady of the house is not interested.
Like i said before, a person is not bound by only one loudspeaker.
Build a Lambda system later, try to get the woofers now before
they go extinct and own something unique and hand made.
I think noobs electronic design is a good choice, focus on
loudspeakers, room acoustics and system tuning. Best return
on the investment.
It'll blow your socks off if you mainly listen to digital.
Money back guarantee ?
I can see where your taking this... pick apart? I've heard the DCX and sold it after getting the PC setup running correctly. I've AB'd them before I even went with the Antelope and heard big improvements. I'd wager you've never even heard a PC XO with FIR filters, virtually zero jitter and DRC.
Thy your a moron.
Why would I share anything with one such as yourself?
Get an attitude alignment and then I might give a damn what you think.
Please don't ever reply to anything I've wrote again, your not welcome!
Thy your a moron.
Why would I share anything with one such as yourself?
Get an attitude alignment and then I might give a damn what you think.
Please don't ever reply to anything I've wrote again, your not welcome!
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