I hope Martina joins in. She is a DIY member. Garrard also built talking books for the blind in the summer. That was free of charge to the blind society.
When there was no social care in Britain Garrard employed mostly women. If a lady was married she had to give up her job. As harsh as it seems it was to make sure ladies without a husband or a widow had income. Brian Mortimer told me it was hell for some men. 4500 woman and 150 men. The women were not as lady like as some would like to make out in films of the day. The reverse of sexual harasment of today. I was told by our cleaning lady that the women could fight over little things and great skill was needed in sharing things out. The cake trolly started on different rows each day to be sure everyone got a chance of the best cakes at tea break. The lady showed me her hands. Even 40 years on she had hard skin where she wound the 301 coils at the Marlbourough factory. She also told us why the paint boils up on the older 301, it needs less than 60C baking. How impressive.
Mrs Rayner sold us a brand new 401 she bought from the factory when she worked there. She was in her 80's. She said if we started up in Swindon again " the girls " will come to help and it had been discussed. Mr Rayner didn't say much. I asked if he worked at Garrard " No I worked at Vickers ( Rolls Royce ) and made the machine for Garrard that made the 401 platter strobe markings. It was much like a gear cutting machine. I am sure Mrs Rayner was giving me the glad eye right in front of her man. She was a remarkably good looking and super confident woman. Those Garrard women!
When there was no social care in Britain Garrard employed mostly women. If a lady was married she had to give up her job. As harsh as it seems it was to make sure ladies without a husband or a widow had income. Brian Mortimer told me it was hell for some men. 4500 woman and 150 men. The women were not as lady like as some would like to make out in films of the day. The reverse of sexual harasment of today. I was told by our cleaning lady that the women could fight over little things and great skill was needed in sharing things out. The cake trolly started on different rows each day to be sure everyone got a chance of the best cakes at tea break. The lady showed me her hands. Even 40 years on she had hard skin where she wound the 301 coils at the Marlbourough factory. She also told us why the paint boils up on the older 301, it needs less than 60C baking. How impressive.
Mrs Rayner sold us a brand new 401 she bought from the factory when she worked there. She was in her 80's. She said if we started up in Swindon again " the girls " will come to help and it had been discussed. Mr Rayner didn't say much. I asked if he worked at Garrard " No I worked at Vickers ( Rolls Royce ) and made the machine for Garrard that made the 401 platter strobe markings. It was much like a gear cutting machine. I am sure Mrs Rayner was giving me the glad eye right in front of her man. She was a remarkably good looking and super confident woman. Those Garrard women!
Tell those ladies, the machines they made are still working and have made lots of people happy listening to music on it. Probably across the world.
On aesthetics side why the look of Garrard was changed in 501 ? People would identify and connect with the top panel design easily if basic profile were kept similar with some modern changes is what I am thinking.
Regards.
On aesthetics side why the look of Garrard was changed in 501 ? People would identify and connect with the top panel design easily if basic profile were kept similar with some modern changes is what I am thinking.
Regards.
If you think about it 301 and 401 were the styling of the day, Ford 1954 and Ford 1964. Mostly the 401 is a 301 with a better motor. Where the 401 trades off is the attempt to meet the rumble of perhaps the TD150, if it had been more powerful it would have the the better one. Seeing as it started life as a mono turntable in 1952/3 the 401 spec were very good. When the test results of the 501 came through I could hardly believe it. If you like it was blind faith the ideas were right. Both the 301 and 401 showed the limitations of that motor ( and near identical TD124 for power output ). Martina Schoener taught me something. By taking the ideas to rediculous levels the measurements were better. The motor I designed being better than my wildest dreams. Some of that was a lecture of Professor Eric Laithewait on linear motors. A man much like Garrard's Mortimer. Much of his work was obvious, that's why no one every did it ?????? A German engineer told me he was sickened by my reference to inventors and not the idea. It was Cockroft-Walton at the time. If you don't do that you often don't get the context of the idea. Nuclear physics to TV sets. Lodge almost forgotten this way. Where the 501 took shape was in the lab area where Lodge gave lectures. He went on holiday only to find his ideas patented ( it's said ). I didn't take a patent on the 501 motor. I thought it the best way to protect it. Greenwhich University did my verification work ( big thanks ). They worked with the Navy and are linked with Harrison etc.
The 501 was concieved as something that could be made on a lathe. Ironically modern lathes seldom are large enough. We used a Colchester which we still have. It's like the Land Rover, very useful when you need it, sometimes under rated. The last ones we made were milled into the rough shape then returned to the Colchester to finish. I better be careful not to say too much more as the ideas belong to SME. These that I have would be nearly obvious to any machinist. The underside is to a good machined finish. This is not to save money, it was at the suggestion of a Derby engineering company who said it's to show the machining ablity at all levels. The last process is a hand polish using something like jewlers rouge. That bit is easier than it sounds as finish level 3 is nearly good enough. The rim is all you see and is the highest finish. This started as a question about Rhodium plating which we were told to forget. That's only used to make welded bits look better.
One thing I did learn from the Garrards is that most of what written about turntables would not help you make a good one. When asked to define the best of type I suggested you would need a windmill or a lighthouse. A gravity string drive on the turntable spindle using the full height of the lighthouse. An eddy current brake with servo for the speed regulation. Another idea is a mercury water wheel. That might just work as the mercury is heavy enough to fight the stylus. What you are doing is ironing out the pump/motor vibration without loss of torque. Better stilll a double cylinder to draw up and offer the mercury, one full and one being filled. If this was a lab application it might be done. Needless to say it's a no-no. 78's sometimes were string cut. Mercury vacuum pumps are banned by health and safety. Some places have them locked away for when they need them. One is in a cupboard with a false back!
Both Mr Hooker of RR and Monty Mortimer came up from the factory floor to management. I am sorry to say a( n? ) University education will not create a gifted engineer with the thinking outside of the box quality. How an idea was thought through can be like seeing a new colour. It's like the finger prints of that person.
I love the Lenco GL75. It's the turntable Garrard should have made. It's far from perfect. All the same it's really good to listen to. In the old days ( 1930 ) Garrard wow and flutter tests were done by trained women by ear. It was a set of 78's that would show defects. Marching music was used. Perhaps this is the great timing quality Garrard's have. Even SP25/2 has it. BTW. If Decca FFRR 78's are pressed onto vinyl they do 32 kHz. Derek Brown of Decca knew all this stuff. I built him a universal EQ box. The FFRR( FFSS ) cutting head was used for submarine detection. Decca made sure it could. Only the cutting screw was changed for 33 1/3. The EQ is not exactly RIAA. If you EQ it correctly it sounds much more open and not so old fashioned. I would say wrong EQ is more noticable than 1% THD from a nice valve amp. Many modern LP's are closer to 50 uS. Having a passive HF is so easy to do. Derek is gone now. He worked with the British Library I think, his friend did.
YouTube
YouTube
The 501 was concieved as something that could be made on a lathe. Ironically modern lathes seldom are large enough. We used a Colchester which we still have. It's like the Land Rover, very useful when you need it, sometimes under rated. The last ones we made were milled into the rough shape then returned to the Colchester to finish. I better be careful not to say too much more as the ideas belong to SME. These that I have would be nearly obvious to any machinist. The underside is to a good machined finish. This is not to save money, it was at the suggestion of a Derby engineering company who said it's to show the machining ablity at all levels. The last process is a hand polish using something like jewlers rouge. That bit is easier than it sounds as finish level 3 is nearly good enough. The rim is all you see and is the highest finish. This started as a question about Rhodium plating which we were told to forget. That's only used to make welded bits look better.
One thing I did learn from the Garrards is that most of what written about turntables would not help you make a good one. When asked to define the best of type I suggested you would need a windmill or a lighthouse. A gravity string drive on the turntable spindle using the full height of the lighthouse. An eddy current brake with servo for the speed regulation. Another idea is a mercury water wheel. That might just work as the mercury is heavy enough to fight the stylus. What you are doing is ironing out the pump/motor vibration without loss of torque. Better stilll a double cylinder to draw up and offer the mercury, one full and one being filled. If this was a lab application it might be done. Needless to say it's a no-no. 78's sometimes were string cut. Mercury vacuum pumps are banned by health and safety. Some places have them locked away for when they need them. One is in a cupboard with a false back!
Both Mr Hooker of RR and Monty Mortimer came up from the factory floor to management. I am sorry to say a( n? ) University education will not create a gifted engineer with the thinking outside of the box quality. How an idea was thought through can be like seeing a new colour. It's like the finger prints of that person.
I love the Lenco GL75. It's the turntable Garrard should have made. It's far from perfect. All the same it's really good to listen to. In the old days ( 1930 ) Garrard wow and flutter tests were done by trained women by ear. It was a set of 78's that would show defects. Marching music was used. Perhaps this is the great timing quality Garrard's have. Even SP25/2 has it. BTW. If Decca FFRR 78's are pressed onto vinyl they do 32 kHz. Derek Brown of Decca knew all this stuff. I built him a universal EQ box. The FFRR( FFSS ) cutting head was used for submarine detection. Decca made sure it could. Only the cutting screw was changed for 33 1/3. The EQ is not exactly RIAA. If you EQ it correctly it sounds much more open and not so old fashioned. I would say wrong EQ is more noticable than 1% THD from a nice valve amp. Many modern LP's are closer to 50 uS. Having a passive HF is so easy to do. Derek is gone now. He worked with the British Library I think, his friend did.
YouTube
YouTube
Nigel: Your mention of Garrard's women employees brought back a memory!
My first holiday job as a student was in a whisky bond, loading bottles of the water of life into containers for transportation. A large task force of women was employed in the associated bottling plant.
Young, innocent male students like myself were warned by the management NEVER to venture into the bottling plant.
I don't think that this was for the protection of the women!
My first holiday job as a student was in a whisky bond, loading bottles of the water of life into containers for transportation. A large task force of women was employed in the associated bottling plant.
Young, innocent male students like myself were warned by the management NEVER to venture into the bottling plant.
I don't think that this was for the protection of the women!
Nigel:
Pleased to hear you say that even the humble SP25 Mk 2 has the same great timing quality as the other Garrards.
The SP25/2 is often written off as 'just another' budget turntable. However the 301, albeit without a pick-up arm, was only twice the price of an SP25/2 in the day. The recommended retail prices in 1970 were respectively £31-4-2 and £15-9-0!
My refurbished SP25/2 was in action yesterday evening, giving rock steady reproduction of my latest charity shop purchase - a Reader's Digest Box Set of 8 excellent quality LPs containing hits of the 60s and 70s - a harmonious find indeed
Pleased to hear you say that even the humble SP25 Mk 2 has the same great timing quality as the other Garrards.
The SP25/2 is often written off as 'just another' budget turntable. However the 301, albeit without a pick-up arm, was only twice the price of an SP25/2 in the day. The recommended retail prices in 1970 were respectively £31-4-2 and £15-9-0!
My refurbished SP25/2 was in action yesterday evening, giving rock steady reproduction of my latest charity shop purchase - a Reader's Digest Box Set of 8 excellent quality LPs containing hits of the 60s and 70s - a harmonious find indeed
I have worked with women where we men were the minority. The strangest thing is the women would always allow that we made mistakes whilst a fellow woman must not. It was often unpleasent whilst I never was the target. Women took multi tasking to be their special quality. At first men can't do it, in time they can. Ironically the women at Garard both multi tasked and eventually mono tasked as the work became repetitive.
Their is a joke women tell that all men are Autistic due to their inibility to multi task. In a way this is a quality an engineer must have. It can be switched off at home time, the drive home is perfect for that. A great example of what's required is engineering drawings. These are often so remarkably unlike the real thing it is untrue. And yet often that's all an engineer needs who never meets the original engineer. Datum points make it possible. In CAD it should be better. I am not convinced.
Their is a joke women tell that all men are Autistic due to their inibility to multi task. In a way this is a quality an engineer must have. It can be switched off at home time, the drive home is perfect for that. A great example of what's required is engineering drawings. These are often so remarkably unlike the real thing it is untrue. And yet often that's all an engineer needs who never meets the original engineer. Datum points make it possible. In CAD it should be better. I am not convinced.
My first component stereo package came with an SP25/II and it seemed so precise compared to my father's radiogramme, but in reality it was a cheap, plastic, mass produced deck that did the job until upgrading.
The SP25/II was the first rung of the hi-fi ladder back in the early 70's and was quickly replaced by those of us bitten by the audio bug.
The SP25/II was the first rung of the hi-fi ladder back in the early 70's and was quickly replaced by those of us bitten by the audio bug.
In reality, very little plastic was used in the construction of the SP25 Mk 2, the notable exception being the headshell. The vast majority of its construction was of steel and die-cast alloy. It was a solid machine that could withstand serious abuse and was certainly not a toy.
And 'cheap' is an unduly pejorative term. I would say 'affordable' as it was half the price of a 301 back in the day.
On a more positive note, if it hadn't been for the SP25 Mk 1/2, many of my generation may never have been bitten by the audio bug in the first place!
And 'cheap' is an unduly pejorative term. I would say 'affordable' as it was half the price of a 301 back in the day.
On a more positive note, if it hadn't been for the SP25 Mk 1/2, many of my generation may never have been bitten by the audio bug in the first place!
"The 301 was sold at a loss!" - can you tell us more Nigel?
The MP60 was very similar to the SP25 Mk 3. The two decks appeared together in 1971 at the same price point. The BSR differed mainly in that it had a square section aluminium pick-up arm rather than the round section arm of the Garrard. I always wondered if there had been collaboration between the two companies with regard to these particular models.
I used two MP60s to spin up my 45s during my 'Disco Daze'. With auto-returns disabled and slip mats fitted they did a sterling job of keeping the dance floor full!
The LAB 80 was said to provide true transcription quality together with the facility to play records automatically if desired. Two record spindles were supplied, one for single play and one for automatic play. Sadly, I have never seen one in action.
The BSR HT70 was an improved version of the MP60 with a heavier 2kg cast alloy platter and fully automatic operation.
The MP60 was very similar to the SP25 Mk 3. The two decks appeared together in 1971 at the same price point. The BSR differed mainly in that it had a square section aluminium pick-up arm rather than the round section arm of the Garrard. I always wondered if there had been collaboration between the two companies with regard to these particular models.
I used two MP60s to spin up my 45s during my 'Disco Daze'. With auto-returns disabled and slip mats fitted they did a sterling job of keeping the dance floor full!
The LAB 80 was said to provide true transcription quality together with the facility to play records automatically if desired. Two record spindles were supplied, one for single play and one for automatic play. Sadly, I have never seen one in action.
The BSR HT70 was an improved version of the MP60 with a heavier 2kg cast alloy platter and fully automatic operation.
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In the 80's I had a chance to lead BSR. Alas I was too complicated with my ideas. It would have caused touble. On reflection I should have said a manual HT70 with the ADC arm of BSR ( Linn Basik ). Then from my time machine perspective I would have said forget the Rega this one times better. All the parts were in house. As far as I know the Basik was surplus BSR stock. I think it could have looked wonderful. The bearing could have been improved. Like the Lenco I see nothing wrong with the motor. The Airpax motor never was my dream device.
I am designing a turntable for a friend. He wants an inverted bearing. I say it's quality first and inverted last. The inverted design I liked was my early 1970's ERA mk6. Simple, cheap and somehow good sounding. It had a version of the Airpax. I have real doubts the inverted arguements are found in reality. Anyone care to put that right? The Garrard isn't one. I have heard a few inverted designs I thought highly unspecial. The Verdier is very nice, but might lack verve. The ERA very nice with no but. Same designer I think and to me similar?
I am designing a turntable for a friend. He wants an inverted bearing. I say it's quality first and inverted last. The inverted design I liked was my early 1970's ERA mk6. Simple, cheap and somehow good sounding. It had a version of the Airpax. I have real doubts the inverted arguements are found in reality. Anyone care to put that right? The Garrard isn't one. I have heard a few inverted designs I thought highly unspecial. The Verdier is very nice, but might lack verve. The ERA very nice with no but. Same designer I think and to me similar?
Nigel:
In response to your doubts re the efficacy of inverted bearings, I have taken the liberty of summarising the available information in the hope that it may be of interest to anyone unfamiliar with turntable bearing design.
In a conventional bearing, the centre of gravity of the platter is above the support point or pivot. There is therefore a tendency for the platter to topple over. This induces a rocking motion in the rotating platter which must be held in check by the bearing sleeve. This results in high friction and bearing sleeve wear.
An inverted bearing brings the centre of gravity of the platter below the pivot. The result is that the rotating platter has less propensity to topple, reducing friction and bearing sleeve wear. Unfortunately, there remains a pendulum like movement of the platter which limits the degree of improvement over the conventional bearing.
In effect, neither system may be regarded as perfect!
In response to your doubts re the efficacy of inverted bearings, I have taken the liberty of summarising the available information in the hope that it may be of interest to anyone unfamiliar with turntable bearing design.
In a conventional bearing, the centre of gravity of the platter is above the support point or pivot. There is therefore a tendency for the platter to topple over. This induces a rocking motion in the rotating platter which must be held in check by the bearing sleeve. This results in high friction and bearing sleeve wear.
An inverted bearing brings the centre of gravity of the platter below the pivot. The result is that the rotating platter has less propensity to topple, reducing friction and bearing sleeve wear. Unfortunately, there remains a pendulum like movement of the platter which limits the degree of improvement over the conventional bearing.
In effect, neither system may be regarded as perfect!
Thirty years ago I owned a "Fink Tryngle" with an inverted bearing which proved extremely fragile and I broke it simply taking the bearing off of the spindle (the ruby fell out never to be seen again, most likely because it had cracked). In general that table was a nightmare, brilliant in conception but very poorly executed.
Speed stability of the DC servo motor was non-existent, which was odd as the motor was exactly the same cheap one used in my belt drive Panasonic SL-23 TT, but the controller wasn't - and although I had several, none of them worked properly. I don't think they used the tachometer on the motor for speed control.
The U.S. importer of the product line unfortunately ripped them off big time which left those of us with legitimately acquired hardware with no recourse as they would not support anyone in the U.S. My written requests for assistance were ignored. In desperation I sold the table to someone in the U.K. and shipped it to him, he was able to get parts and the story for him apparently ended OK.
I don't like and have nothing nice to say about that company, and share Nigel's suspicion of inverted bearings and shall never, ever own a table of that brand or configuration again.
Speed stability of the DC servo motor was non-existent, which was odd as the motor was exactly the same cheap one used in my belt drive Panasonic SL-23 TT, but the controller wasn't - and although I had several, none of them worked properly. I don't think they used the tachometer on the motor for speed control.
The U.S. importer of the product line unfortunately ripped them off big time which left those of us with legitimately acquired hardware with no recourse as they would not support anyone in the U.S. My written requests for assistance were ignored. In desperation I sold the table to someone in the U.K. and shipped it to him, he was able to get parts and the story for him apparently ended OK.
I don't like and have nothing nice to say about that company, and share Nigel's suspicion of inverted bearings and shall never, ever own a table of that brand or configuration again.
Pink really didn't understand electronics (actually few of the flat earth manufacturers did), but a friend of mine did love his pink. I couldn't get on with the whole bouncy, bouncy thing. I saw him fitting the platter once and decided that they went out of their way to make it difficult because the view at the time was that the harder it was to do the better it must sound.
Japanese tables just worked without fuss so clearly must be rubbish was the view
But then again I have ended up with a table where the bearing takes 24 hours to settle back down after you re-lube it.
Japanese tables just worked without fuss so clearly must be rubbish was the view
But then again I have ended up with a table where the bearing takes 24 hours to settle back down after you re-lube it.
My Fink could not manage to play a single side from start to finish without at least a 10% change in speed. (It usually sped up as it played.. LOL)
As a record player it was basically useless.
Putting the belt on as I recall was the challenge, that and not breaking the inverting bearing which was separable from the spindle (don't!) and platter.
The 124s I run these days are not the last word in speed stability either, but once warm they can hold speed pretty well, and the older ones are better cold than the MKII in this regard. Induction motors, no other cost effective solution for the time, but....
As a record player it was basically useless.
Putting the belt on as I recall was the challenge, that and not breaking the inverting bearing which was separable from the spindle (don't!) and platter.
The 124s I run these days are not the last word in speed stability either, but once warm they can hold speed pretty well, and the older ones are better cold than the MKII in this regard. Induction motors, no other cost effective solution for the time, but....
IIRC you fit the belt to the bottom of the platter where the machined in bit sits where a subplatter would normally live. You hook a thread around the belt and pull the belt taught with one hand whilst using your other 2 hands to verrrrry gently lower the brittle gemstone onto a sharp point. Of course the belt would slip off a dozen times whilst you were trying to do this!
Glutton for punishment? You must have days when you wished you still had an SP10 for refurb?The 124s I run these days are not the last word in speed stability either, but once warm they can hold speed pretty well, and the older ones are better cold than the MKII in this regard. Induction motors, no other cost effective solution for the time, but....
I meant in terms of after a life of turntables that either never run at speed or take 3 days to get to speed having something that will get a massive platter to exact speed in around .3 seconds could be seen as a tonic.
As far as I can tell there are 2 sorts of people in the world. Those who like SP10 and those for whom they are 'meh'. Very little inbetween. I have theories as to why but they are total speculation, even by my standards
Edit: I should note that, although I have never owned an SP10 I'm one of those odd types who doesn't actually want a turntable to try and impress me. I want it to turn at the right speed and add as little of its own grot as possible.
As far as I can tell there are 2 sorts of people in the world. Those who like SP10 and those for whom they are 'meh'. Very little inbetween. I have theories as to why but they are total speculation, even by my standards
Edit: I should note that, although I have never owned an SP10 I'm one of those odd types who doesn't actually want a turntable to try and impress me. I want it to turn at the right speed and add as little of its own grot as possible.
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