Re: The truth, the hole truth. and nothing but......
This pain is creating music and this phenomina is totally unkwown. I say Wago is the solution to bad sound. 
This is really true but on the other hand Wago cage clamp connector cancels this out to 100%. Didn't you know what a sharp spring from the connector does when the copper is feeling pain?Fred Dieckmann said:
This pain is creating music and this phenomina is totally unkwown. I say Wago is the solution to bad sound. 
grataku said:
I don't want to give any comments to the performance of these boards at this point, but I would like to mention that there is a difference between good and professionally made, which these are, and well made which refers to the performance. Actually with any PCB program you can turn out good looking boards. But just to mention one thing, I would have made these boards around 30% smaller.
Jan Didden
I thought by exclusive you meant more expensive to have fabricated. I don't think a one sided board verses two is an indication of quality. It also makes one look a little more closely at the layout due to design constraints from one layer and you often wind up with a tighter and more thought out layout. Ground planes on two layer board aren't very effective due to the distance between the two layers being 0.062". This doesn't work that well for controlled impedance traces or RF immunity as it does on a board with four layers or more. Solder mask does effect the dialectric constant and surface finish on the copper traces. I have seen some very expensive products like Audio Research and conrad johnston use boards with no solder mask where it's cost was not an issue. I don't understand what the connectors have to do with the solder mask.....
The point about some of the choices and PCB fabrication are even more of a concern for small quantity runs than with large quantity runs. Set up charges for something a solder mask is spread over a large number of boards and results in less a percentage of each boards cost. I thought these considerations were very relevant for something like a DIY PCB where most people are looking for the most performance for the cost. For an analogy, when you are building a racing car you can usually get by without electric window or cruise control. There is nothing wrong with a PCB looking nice, but don't confuse that with performance.
The point about some of the choices and PCB fabrication are even more of a concern for small quantity runs than with large quantity runs. Set up charges for something a solder mask is spread over a large number of boards and results in less a percentage of each boards cost. I thought these considerations were very relevant for something like a DIY PCB where most people are looking for the most performance for the cost. For an analogy, when you are building a racing car you can usually get by without electric window or cruise control. There is nothing wrong with a PCB looking nice, but don't confuse that with performance.
In swedish "exklusiv" means also not very common or even rare, not necessarily expensive. Maybe exclusive in english doesn't mean exactly the same thing.Fred Dieckmann said:
Singlesided boards with non-plated holes aren't not equally good when it comes to mechanics. I guess I'm mixing the concept of quality with looks and mechanical and electrical performance.
You may also have noticed that almost all projects here have been doublesided boards and the reason for this is that they are "cooler".
Otherwise, you don't have any point of view of the pcb itself?
You look marvellous ......
"Single sided boards with non-plated holes aren't not equally good when it comes to mechanics. I guess I'm mixing the concept of quality with looks and mechanical and electrical performance."
I have no idea why single sided board should be less good electrical characteristics for a simple circuit like this in designed correctly. I don't know of any reason for mecanical issues either when using decent FR 4 material with decent size pads. I think you are confusing style with content...... or as Billy Crystal used to say " It's not how you feel. It's how you look."
"Single sided boards with non-plated holes aren't not equally good when it comes to mechanics. I guess I'm mixing the concept of quality with looks and mechanical and electrical performance."
I have no idea why single sided board should be less good electrical characteristics for a simple circuit like this in designed correctly. I don't know of any reason for mecanical issues either when using decent FR 4 material with decent size pads. I think you are confusing style with content...... or as Billy Crystal used to say " It's not how you feel. It's how you look."
Plated holes are much better when it comes to mechanical strength, especially when it comes to vibrations and heavy parts.
Fred, I don't know what you really are after. You have worked for a big firm and designed pcb's for products in millions of copies. You know, I know, the pros and cons for each type.
I my case it's doubledsided pcb's, only, period. Why? I like them better.
Fred, I don't know what you really are after. You have worked for a big firm and designed pcb's for products in millions of copies. You know, I know, the pros and cons for each type.
I my case it's doubledsided pcb's, only, period. Why? I like them better.
If you just like two sided boards say so. Please don't make technical claims that are completely irrelevant for high end audio use. If you like them just because they look nice to you just say so. Wasn't that your justification for SMT components. There is nothing wrong with aesthetics, just don't pass it off as design requirements. Look inside some of the Krell preamps. Most of the resistors and transistors are in nice neat row....... how much perasitic inductance and large circuit trace loops that are susceptible to noise and crosstalk is of no concern to the customer. He doesn't know about these things, and all those straight rows of parts look so nice.
Vibration:
P-A How much shaking is your power supply going to do? You need to talk the Peter Daniels about vibration control for audio electronics.
You are designing the power supplies to go into space? Car stereo for Off Road racing cars? Where do expect high G forces on your power supplies? Just curious.........
Vibration:
P-A How much shaking is your power supply going to do? You need to talk the Peter Daniels about vibration control for audio electronics.
You are designing the power supplies to go into space? Car stereo for Off Road racing cars? Where do expect high G forces on your power supplies? Just curious.........
rework woes
If you have the right rework tools yes. Sometimes with just a solder sucker and some Solderwick it's a different story. Adding more solder to the lead/pad helps since the flux and better thermal coupling to the solder down the through hole via wall. Rocking the lead a bit with the soldering iron tip (very gently)! also helps to move the lead away from the via wall far enough for the solder to be wicked or sucked out. With no through hole plated via and just a pad you don't have to worry about this since the solder joint is at the surface. It is much easier to lift the pad from the circuit board though. It is really a matter of patience and practice more than any thing and you can damage either type if you are not careful. SMT pads for ICs lift very easily and require great care. I worked one summer as a board repair technician for NEC and I have had plenty of experience damaging pads and traces on through hole PCBs. It wasn't until my last job that I learned to destroy SMT pads..........
If you have the right rework tools yes. Sometimes with just a solder sucker and some Solderwick it's a different story. Adding more solder to the lead/pad helps since the flux and better thermal coupling to the solder down the through hole via wall. Rocking the lead a bit with the soldering iron tip (very gently)! also helps to move the lead away from the via wall far enough for the solder to be wicked or sucked out. With no through hole plated via and just a pad you don't have to worry about this since the solder joint is at the surface. It is much easier to lift the pad from the circuit board though. It is really a matter of patience and practice more than any thing and you can damage either type if you are not careful. SMT pads for ICs lift very easily and require great care. I worked one summer as a board repair technician for NEC and I have had plenty of experience damaging pads and traces on through hole PCBs. It wasn't until my last job that I learned to destroy SMT pads..........
Fred, what do you prefer? It seems that you always prefer the opposite of what I do.
The only thing I've seen from you is a veroboard with some filter on. That's all.
I think most people can make up their own mind when I claim something so everything I say must be filtered. Many choices I have made are based on feelings and at the moment I like SMD. What do you like? I don't know.
I notice also that you pay no interest in the pcb making of the Gainclones where we had a couple of "trace issues".
The only thing I've seen from you is a veroboard with some filter on. That's all.
I think most people can make up their own mind when I claim something so everything I say must be filtered. Many choices I have made are based on feelings and at the moment I like SMD. What do you like? I don't know.
I notice also that you pay no interest in the pcb making of the Gainclones where we had a couple of "trace issues".
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