Hi guys, keen to bud a pair of these down in Australia. One quick question, & apologies if it has been asked, skimmed though this mammoth topic n didn't notice it. But would anyone be able to tell me appx how much pl premium is used in building one of these boxes? It's not a simple matter of popping to a big box store here for it, either by the carton, or single tubes shipped from USA via evilbay.
Regards
Pete
Regards
Pete
I love this design and am going to build probably 8 of these. I'm also in the process of learning hornresp. I've read this whole thread, and maybe I'm just missing it, but is there an official set of hornresp inputs for this cab with the 3015lf? Im probably going to use this driver, but I wanted to try it out with some other drivers, possibly a 12". All I can seem to find from Jbell is the frequency plot, but not a shot of the input fields in hornresp...
Not official, but here are some I found.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...ojkcuF3_dIQ/s600/Jbell_SS15_Ande_LB1560_5.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...ojkcuF3_dIQ/s600/Jbell_SS15_Ande_LB1560_5.jpg
hi all just wondering . the xoc th18 or the cyclops cbe th uses two sheets of 4x8 . meanwhile the ss15 uses only one sheet .using the seems previously posted i see they are all similar in respose i.e from 40hz to around 110hz except with a few db +or- . my question is with good average drivers can eight ss15 cabiets outperform four pieces xocth18 or cyclops cbe ??
Dunno about the Cyclops but VS the TH18:
my question is with good average drivers can eight ss15 cabiets outperform four pieces xocth18 or cyclops cbe ??
Above 50-55hz, yes. Below, no.
TH18 has a massive advantage at low frequencies. SS15 is fantastically loud until it hits its low corner and then it just disappears.
I play lots of EDM, and when I built a Keystone (similar response to TH18) after several SS15s the difference was night and day on the low basslines. But depending on what you play you may never need the extra extension.
Google Image Search
There is definitely a price to pay, but I think I have found one of the best deals for it in the area. Wood is generally pricey around here, and I managed to get 2 sheets for 127€, precision cut to less than 1mm accuracy. I'm sure it's more than north americans pay, but I have neither the facility for accurate straight cuts, nor the ability to transport full sheets of wood (small car!).
Hey Jim, I'm having some trouble reading your measurements describing what distances from the edges the boards are to be placed. I've played around with a sketchup model, trying to get the most linear possible expansion, but I have to say my results look quite different from yours.
DISCLAIMER FOR ANYONE BROWSING THIS THREAD: THIS IS NOT THE OFFICIAL JBELL LAYOUT
As you can see, my path divider coming from the top of the horn is perpendicular to the top, and not angled like yours. However observing the cross sections, this seems to yield a good expansion on paper. It would be great if you could write your measurements more legibly for me
Still waiting for my Delivery of Eminences....
Oh and one more thing: what's this threads opinion on a good finish. Speaker felt, or some kind of robust paint? I already have edge rails and corner protectors on the way.
any one with this boxes sims they look smooth in perfomance
For giggles I decided to sim up a shared horn extension using a pair of this classic design and quite shocked how well it worked. The image is 2 pairs or 4 cabs total. With all of the builds folks made here I'd think this would really encourage someone to try it out. Cliff notes: this piece of plywood effectively drops the low corner 10Hz AND adds 3db.
Attachments
Even better, HR file also attached. Still learning, so I would appreciate criticism. The premise of this approach can be found in Art's Extender/Waveguide thread. Essentially, you are doubling segment size/combining L2 and L3/adding the extension as final segment/changing TH to TH1/using 2 drivers.
Attachments
Zillion dollar question
OK,
First of all, thanks for all these ideas and open minded contributions.
I have been asked to help a local facility that is run by volunteers and real low budget.
They have been struggling with their PA (well, sort of) and bought various stuff (some crap some average) ending up in keep spending money without results.
Too low power amps of average equality and low budget bass reflex cabinets, combined with poor facility acoustics. Because of this combination of underpowered equipment and poor acoustics (half way the facility from the stage) you seriously lack low-end, thus cranking up all into clipping. Whoop, another driver up in smoke, and so on and so on. Cheap mixers completing this sound disaster.
I suggested a 3-way approach;
1 - Improve facility acoustics first. We have a specialist around the corner (who offered help some time ago, but the did not understand what could be the issue with the facility). Well trust me, there IS
2 - Go for solid good quality mixing desk, like soundcraft analog (they don't understand digital versions and get completely lost), with a decent set of mikes.
3 - Build a DIY PA, TH-subs and Column array mid / tops (I have a very nice design, tested and sold many times, 4 columns handle 130+ dB).
Now the Zillion dollar question (they have bands and DJ's, facility is about 10 x 15 meters, 3 meters high):
For the TH-subs, WHICH set to use;
SS15 (4), or SS15-cone correction (4), OR 2 Xoc1 18 inch?
(I have offered them to help build and finance the speakers).
I would see on the SS15's (B&C 15TBW100 / 15SW115);
- 4 cones, 4 coils, less driver damage (that is driven by the right amp and DSP setting)
- 4 cabinets stacked provide a nice smooth pattern
- Should kick sufficient, although not as deep as the 18"
- Somewhat easier to handle and hide under the stage (that was my first thought, to be discussed with the acoustics guy)
On the Xoc's 18 inch (B&C 18SW115-4)
- Goes deeper
- Bigger, fit under stage?
- "only" 2 cones, 2 coils, "driven harder for same SPL".
ANY-ONE (preferably WITH some backing thoughts).
OF-COURSE BUILDING STARTS AFTER APPROVAL FROM JBELL / Xoc
kind regards,
Frans
OK,
First of all, thanks for all these ideas and open minded contributions.
I have been asked to help a local facility that is run by volunteers and real low budget.
They have been struggling with their PA (well, sort of) and bought various stuff (some crap some average) ending up in keep spending money without results.
Too low power amps of average equality and low budget bass reflex cabinets, combined with poor facility acoustics. Because of this combination of underpowered equipment and poor acoustics (half way the facility from the stage) you seriously lack low-end, thus cranking up all into clipping. Whoop, another driver up in smoke, and so on and so on. Cheap mixers completing this sound disaster.
I suggested a 3-way approach;
1 - Improve facility acoustics first. We have a specialist around the corner (who offered help some time ago, but the did not understand what could be the issue with the facility). Well trust me, there IS
2 - Go for solid good quality mixing desk, like soundcraft analog (they don't understand digital versions and get completely lost), with a decent set of mikes.
3 - Build a DIY PA, TH-subs and Column array mid / tops (I have a very nice design, tested and sold many times, 4 columns handle 130+ dB).
Now the Zillion dollar question
(they have bands and DJ's, facility is about 10 x 15 meters, 3 meters high):For the TH-subs, WHICH set to use;
SS15 (4), or SS15-cone correction (4), OR 2 Xoc1 18 inch?
(I have offered them to help build and finance the speakers).
I would see on the SS15's (B&C 15TBW100 / 15SW115);
- 4 cones, 4 coils, less driver damage (that is driven by the right amp and DSP setting)
- 4 cabinets stacked provide a nice smooth pattern
- Should kick sufficient, although not as deep as the 18"
- Somewhat easier to handle and hide under the stage (that was my first thought, to be discussed with the acoustics guy)
On the Xoc's 18 inch (B&C 18SW115-4)
- Goes deeper
- Bigger, fit under stage?
- "only" 2 cones, 2 coils, "driven harder for same SPL".
ANY-ONE (preferably WITH some backing thoughts).
OF-COURSE BUILDING STARTS AFTER APPROVAL FROM JBELL / Xoc
kind regards,
Frans
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Hi wae .you want sensitivity. Since you are on low budget of quality drivers and power amp. Build a bass horn speaker e.g lab sub ,or xoc th18 or the bigger xoc 18. I hope transport is not an issue .
and the tops go with the porn horn 12" midrange
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/178029-c-e-x-pa-flat-30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness-87.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design-242.html#post4877295
and the tops go with the porn horn 12" midrange
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/178029-c-e-x-pa-flat-30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness-87.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design-242.html#post4877295
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Hi Stewin,
No, no transport required. It's a fixed install, at least that would be my shot at it. It saves install time and there is no change of "wrong" cabling and settings. DSP will be "password protected" OR installed in a steel cage (monkey proof), amps most likely Crown XLi's.
It is surprising how much harm / wrong people can do to equipment out of pure excitement and ignorance (kind version of "don't have a PEEEEP knowledge of what this button / setting does"
). Budget is not null, but limited, looking for sponsors (and found some already).
I don't want to compromise to much on amps. XLi 3500 for TH's, XLi 2500 + XLi 800 for Column array's (3-way DSP dBX most likely). Gives me 4.8kW for around 1650 euro's, that's not to bad is it.
So you vote for the Xoc 18, right?
ANY reasons for NOT voting the SS15?
kind regards,
Frans
Questions in my mind.
How low vs loud do you want to go?
Budget in money for all this equipment?
The amount of time it will take to build.
The original SS 15 was meant to be cheap cheerful and quick to build.
Finding a suitable 15"driver might take some research.
The 18" TH cabinets need decent high x-max drivers to make them work at high SPL.
Don't overlook the Keystone design as it is a simpler build that the TH18.
You don't need My approval to do whatever you like.
Regards
Xoc1
How low vs loud do you want to go?
Budget in money for all this equipment?
The amount of time it will take to build.
The original SS 15 was meant to be cheap cheerful and quick to build.
Finding a suitable 15"driver might take some research.
The 18" TH cabinets need decent high x-max drivers to make them work at high SPL.
Don't overlook the Keystone design as it is a simpler build that the TH18.
You don't need My approval to do whatever you like.
Regards
Xoc1
Hi Xoc,
That's nice to see your reply and give a GO should the Xoc 18 be the one to go for.
As to your points;
Budget (in euro's); 2000 on amps, 2000 on mixer, 1000 on mike's, 2000 on drivers being low, mid and high. Mid & High (column array) would be around 900 euro for 16 Faital 6" and 4 B&C 1,4 " (I run a VERY small audio business, so that helps reducing prices). That leaves me with 1100 for either 2 x 18" or 4 x 15" (doable.., considering around 25% discount or so)
How loud: jeeeees, VERY of course. No seriously, it's NOT a very big facility (10 x 15 - 20 meters). So loud enough to give that nice live feel. For DJ's, well what can I tell, that's why I chose TH's. It should be loud enough to flex some peoples muscles Your talking 120db + I would guess. On paper this setup would hit 130 dB at least (2pi in HR @ max power of the crown's, around 4 kW).
Amount of time to build: NOT a real issue. I have all wood working equipment and extensive skill's (designed and build load's of stuff and my first TH-mini some time ago). Also some volunteers.
X-max: That's why I was looking for B&C, 13 mm x-max for 15", 16 mm x-max for 18". If Danley uses them, should not be the silly choice should it? Looking at these speakers in the HR simms, I was hitting 10 mm for the 15" @ 700 watt and 12 mm for the 18" @ 1200 watt (if I recall correct). Looks safe since that would be the max load they would get (using the crown's I stated in previous post.
Kind regards,
Frans
That's nice to see your reply and give a GO should the Xoc 18 be the one to go for.
As to your points;
Budget (in euro's); 2000 on amps, 2000 on mixer, 1000 on mike's, 2000 on drivers being low, mid and high. Mid & High (column array) would be around 900 euro for 16 Faital 6" and 4 B&C 1,4 " (I run a VERY small audio business, so that helps reducing prices). That leaves me with 1100 for either 2 x 18" or 4 x 15" (doable.., considering around 25% discount or so)
How loud: jeeeees, VERY of course
. No seriously, it's NOT a very big facility (10 x 15 - 20 meters). So loud enough to give that nice live feel. For DJ's, well what can I tell, that's why I chose TH's. It should be loud enough to flex some peoples muscles Your talking 120db + I would guess. On paper this setup would hit 130 dB at least (2pi in HR @ max power of the crown's, around 4 kW).Amount of time to build: NOT a real issue. I have all wood working equipment and extensive skill's (designed and build load's of stuff and my first TH-mini some time ago). Also some volunteers.
X-max: That's why I was looking for B&C, 13 mm x-max for 15", 16 mm x-max for 18". If Danley uses them, should not be the silly choice should it? Looking at these speakers in the HR simms, I was hitting 10 mm for the 15" @ 700 watt and 12 mm for the 18" @ 1200 watt (if I recall correct). Looks safe since that would be the max load they would get (using the crown's I stated in previous post.
Kind regards,
Frans
If this is a club, I wouldn't do SS15. Doesn't go nearly low enough. I'd get a pair of 18TBW100 woofers and build a pair of Keystone cabinets for them. TH18 would work too, for the most part it's not that much different, but I like how they are easier to build and a bit more sensitive I think.
The 18SW115 is a more powerful driver, but more expensive and less sensitive. For the price of two SW115 you can nearly buy 3 TBW100. You also need a lot more power to get that extra output out of the SW115. For an install, I'd go TBW.
The 18SW115 is a more powerful driver, but more expensive and less sensitive. For the price of two SW115 you can nearly buy 3 TBW100. You also need a lot more power to get that extra output out of the SW115. For an install, I'd go TBW.
Good point, I'll have to look into that for definite choice on drivers.
So that's;
3 votes on 18"
0 on 15"
Funny, I thought 4x 15" TH (SS15) would rock a boat AND be easy to install under the stage, with the 4 column array's flown above the stage. It's Club AND bands.
I want a bit of "over dimensioning" the drivers so they will not be blown. Price is OK, it looks like I'm within budget.
Thanks.
Frans
definitely 18" . if you are low on budget ,then definitely you must have to have time to build large boxes
1.because you,ll save on poweramps and drivers . i.e labsub , pi labsub, cowann 18 horn , xoc 1,th18 , etc
but i prefer xoc 1 because of its clarity and definition also the spl produced. "(i prefer xoc1 even though i haven't managed to get my hands on a decent 18 "the best driver i have heard on an xoc1 is ,
1.18 fane colossus ,
2.18 eminence kilo max
3.behringer 18SW1600D8
4.18 sound king 2242 600wt driver
others i have tried have been Chinese speakers )" i haven't been privileged enough to listen with any recommended driver e.g b&c,18sound, or faital. but of all bass cabinets i have ever tried out . i and my pals prefer the xoc 18 cabinet . even though we have never managed to get our hands on a good recommended driver for xoc th18. btw xoc sounds better than th18 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170749-15-tapped-horn-rcf.html http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170749-15-tapped-horn-rcf-13.html)
if you have not bought the mids ,consider the porn horn by rog mogale .it uses one tweeter and one twelve inch driver . one pair or two boxes in L+R will be more than sufficient with enough headroom to fill your venue of 20mtrs x 20mtrs
wishing you the all best .
1.because you,ll save on poweramps and drivers . i.e labsub , pi labsub, cowann 18 horn , xoc 1,th18 , etc
but i prefer xoc 1 because of its clarity and definition also the spl produced. "(i prefer xoc1 even though i haven't managed to get my hands on a decent 18 "the best driver i have heard on an xoc1 is ,
1.18 fane colossus ,
2.18 eminence kilo max
3.behringer 18SW1600D8
4.18 sound king 2242 600wt driver
others i have tried have been Chinese speakers )" i haven't been privileged enough to listen with any recommended driver e.g b&c,18sound, or faital. but of all bass cabinets i have ever tried out . i and my pals prefer the xoc 18 cabinet . even though we have never managed to get our hands on a good recommended driver for xoc th18. btw xoc sounds better than th18 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170749-15-tapped-horn-rcf.html http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170749-15-tapped-horn-rcf-13.html)
if you have not bought the mids ,consider the porn horn by rog mogale .it uses one tweeter and one twelve inch driver . one pair or two boxes in L+R will be more than sufficient with enough headroom to fill your venue of 20mtrs x 20mtrs
wishing you the all best .