Silver wire?

[Ken L]

. Sometimes I find myself stepping on toes I did not intend to.

I do not feel that you have stepped on my toes, nor do I feel that you or anyone that has participated in this thread owes me an apology. This is cyberspace forum give and take with repartee' _grin_

FWIW, I have seen these threads degenerate far worse than this _grin_ and will readily state that perhaps I probably should have handled my part better _bigger grin_

I do however think that the audio field needs more proof and less thinking. I'd love to participate in a study on cables...........
/Svante

I think a real problem in this field is that we all hear things differently - I can't hear over 7k, my wife is very sensitive to highs and not so to mids, I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse but distortion is something I readily pick up and it drives me nuts.
I don't have perfect pitch, but it's hard to believe the number of vocalists that will just take the edge off of a note just barely enough to be off will also drive me nuts. Outside of opera and formerly trained vocalists this can be more common than I would ever have thought.

Because of the difference in perceptions and psychoacoustics of sound, along with the fact that those even those with excellent hearing do not hear in a linear manner, I believe that this is something that is unlikely to ever be proven, yea or nay.

I don't believe that there is any one best speaker, amp, cable, etc. I am listening to tubes. When I hear SS that sounds better to me at a reasonable price, I will buy it and move on.

I believe without question, that this field is overloaded with BS and hype. To move forward and grow we need to broaden our thinking, question the measuring methods (which clearly are a poor measure of quality) and do more listening and trying of things.

FWIW, If one of the bottleheads will make up the switching device he was planning to use, we have talked about blind tests with speaker cables, and going to compare about 5 well known cables including the silver. In discussions, we thought that interconnects would have to be manually changed in and out and that the small signal was too likely to be affected by going thru some type of switching device.

A sincere good day to you too (really).

/Svante

A sincere good day to you and everyone who has participated in this thread (really).

_great big grin_

Regards

Ken L

 

[Magura]

Hi,



Take a decent two-way speakerset and just replace the internal wire run to the tweeter on one of them.

If you don't hear the difference between both speakers then don't bother tweaking your system any further.

Cheers,

This is a fact and easily proven.

Make a set of interconnects of silver plated wire(dosnt have to be solid silver to work like silver), the difference is huge.

I once made a set of speaker cables of silver plated copper. They sounded real nasty, but you had no doubt they vere different.

Magura

 

[Hugo Rodriguez]

B&W silver signature

To commemorate their 25th anniversary, B&W of England produced in 1992 (I believe) its “silver signature”, a two way system using silver voice coils in woofer and tweeter and silver wire windings for inductors in crossover.

B&W produces the famous 801 studio monitor, now transformed in the "Nauthilus"

 

[Theli]

ok, I`m sorry i opened this can of worms, I`ll behave next time.
.

I never realized that the interconnects/speaker wires have such an effect on the sound, to me they just transmitted the electrical signal between the various parts of the system. ( I did a quick search on this but there was too much to go through )

 

[RHosch]

This is a fact and easily proven.

You know, if it was a fact, you'd have thought someone would have already done the "easy" experiment to "prove" that it was so.

The fact is that not a single controlled and verified test has ever shown silver to be audibly different from copper, much less one being repeatable.

 

[Variac]

dosnt have to be solid silver to work like silver),

Most silver aficionados, including Frank I believe, claim that silver plated wire is the worst. All copper or all silver is their preference.

I have some silver plated and will try it anyway

 

[Svante]

Nice to get your response, thanks.

I think a real problem in this field is that we all hear things differently - I can't hear over 7k, my wife is very sensitive to highs and not so to mids, I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse but distortion is something I readily pick up and it drives me nuts.
I don't have perfect pitch, but it's hard to believe the number of vocalists that will just take the edge off of a note just barely enough to be off will also drive me nuts. Outside of opera and formerly trained vocalists this can be more common than I would ever have thought.

Because of the difference in perceptions and psychoacoustics of sound, along with the fact that those even those with excellent hearing do not hear in a linear manner, I believe that this is something that is unlikely to ever be proven, yea or nay.

Well, what science *can* prove is if something *is* audible. Otherwise it can only fail to prove audibility, it can never prove non-audibility. This leaves us scientists is a (for us) rather uncomfortable situation to say, "hey, now we have been looking for so-so long and we still haven't found any proof, so it appears likely that there is no...". That is where I am right now, and that is where I will be until I see proof.
I think it would be interesting to do such a test, and find the *limit* of what is audible for a set of persons. In my mind, this would probably mean using really thin wires in order to make some audible effect on the frequency response or something. I understand you and others think otherwise, and that is of course OK.

FWIW, If one of the bottleheads will make up the switching device he was planning to use, we have talked about blind tests with speaker cables, and going to compare about 5 well known cables including the silver. In discussions, we thought that interconnects would have to be manually changed in and out and that the small signal was too likely to be affected by going thru some type of switching device.

Bottleheads?
Seems like a nice experiment. If you are aiming at scientific quality of the results (which I think would be VERY nice), I could perhaps provide some input on the test procedure before you do the testing, if you wish?

 

[Ken L]

Nice to get your response, thanks.Well, what science *can* prove is if something *is* audible. ....... That is where I am right now, and that is where I will be until I see proof.

That is of course fine with me _grin_.

I am not scientific or technical minded and have no interest in making the effort to prove it. Further, I generally distrust and reject many _proofs_ because of what I have seen _proved_ in my life that was totally incorrect. To my non-scientific mind, it is far preferable and a hell of a lot easier to just buy a pair of interconnects and make my own decision. They're only about $170 and if you can't tell a difference you could sell them without substantial loss. To me the scientific approach is simply not worth the effort.

BTW, you really might want search the forum on this, there was a previous thread that went on ad infinitum _big grin_

Cabling is the audio equivalent of religous and politics combined.

In my mind, this would probably mean using really thin wires in order to make some audible effect on the frequency response or something.

Actually, I am in agreement with you. That is why it is so easily noticeable in interconnects.

Bottleheads?

I attend listening sessions at a number of the Dixie Bottlehead meetings in the Southeast US. A loosely knit group of tube/horn far out there enthusiasts that are associated with the Doc Bottlehead forum on AA.

I could perhaps provide some input on the test procedure before you do the testing, if you wish?

Thanks for the offer, trust me, it will never be anywhere that scientific. It's just too much effort. It wasn't my idea, we were talking wires one day and one of the guys said he would build a switching device but so far he hasn't gotten around to it _grin_

We're probably more interested in getting various amp/preamp stuf built.

we're pretty relaxed, and it is an unscientific mind set. Rarely does anyone quote numbers (except for voltages, cap values, etc.)

Some great music, great sound and great guys.

Numbers seem more like work than fun to me.

I have enjoyed the conversational discourse with you.

Do read that long thread on silver - lots of good info in it- lots of controversy - hey - make a new post to it and bring it up to the top - get it going - Ask is there any interest in doing a scientific test - some of the participants may take you up. I enjoyed reading it but after making an initial post just read and sniped humorously in a nice way ( my intent anyhow) at them.

It really can be funny to read if you don't get mired in it.

Best regards

Ken L

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

It may seem odd but I wonder if anyone would demand proof if someone were to claim Aluminium wire sounded great...

Or is it just because silver is a little more expensive than copper?

Does whiskey taste the same as water?

Is silver the same as copper?
I didn't think so...So why would two different metals sound the same?

BTW, the frequency response CAN be measured and NO they're not the same.
Not that that tells the whole story anyway...

Cheers,

 

[Svante]

Hi,

It may seem odd but I wonder if anyone would demand proof if someone were to claim Aluminium wire sounded great...

To convice me, yes. To let you have aluminium in your cables, no.

One "proof", or argument, that I would accept is the fact that aluminium in the voice coil does improve efficiency to some degree. That would be a reasonable excuse for me to use aluminium in the voice coil, unless the cost is too high.

Or is it just because silver is a little more expensive than copper?

Does whiskey taste the same as water?

[/B]

No. Don't think so.

Is silver the same as copper?
[/B]

In terms of electrical properties, yes, nearly.

I didn't think so...So why would two different metals sound the same?

[/B]

Because in most cases both materials conduct the electricity sufficiently good. The *electrical* properties are sufficiently equal.

But, I can understand that the *look* of silver is nice, and that the *word* silver can be more positive than copper.

I also know that when it comes to audio, people, including myself, are very easily fooled by beleifs and suggestion. That is why I want proof. In my opinion, people do get fooled into buying all sorts of things, for reasons that don't exist. On the other hand, they have all the right in the world to do so, and if that makes them happy, that is probably good for them and possibly none of my business.

BTW, the frequency response CAN be measured and NO they're not the same.
Not that that tells the whole story anyway...

Cheers, [/B]

And I think, that in cases when differences can be proven in a listening test, the answer lies in the frequency response.

...but we won't solve this issue here, for sure.

I think I am leaving this thread now, before it turns into another warzone.

Cheers to you too!

 

[Steve Eddy]

It may seem odd but I wonder if anyone would demand proof if someone were to claim Aluminium wire sounded great...

Depends how the claim is made.

If someone simply claims thatn aluminum wire sounded better to them (i.e. simply relating their subjective experience), don't think there's anything to challenge. If they made the claim that there is an audible difference between aluminum and say copper, that's certainly a challengeable claim.

Or is it just because silver is a little more expensive than copper?

Dunno. I wouldn't challenge a claim simply because of price.

Does whiskey taste the same as water?

Is silver the same as copper?
I didn't think so...So why would two different metals sound the same?

You're trying to equate two different conductors to whiskey versus water?

That's quite a leap there, Frank.

Exactly what difference in electrical properties of copper versus silver would be the equivalent of whiskey versus water?

se

 

[Magura]

This discussion would become somewhat more interesting if people would listen to eachother.

As i wrote earlier, make a set of speaker cables of silver, and a set of copper. Test them on a setup that a little on the sharp sounding side. If silver is used, the sound turns unpleasently sharp. If copper is used the sound turns somewhat softer.

I have made this experiment with silver plated VS ofc copper, and the difference is big. There was no doubt what so ever about the result.

I know perfectly well that it wasnt a scientifical approach to just make 2 sets of speaker cables and try one set after the other, but considering the fact that the difference is as big as it is, i have no problem with the non scientifical approach.

Anybody who disagree are free to do the experiment by themselves.

Personally im more interested in an explanation of why silver sounds different, since the resistance cant make much difference.

Magura

 

[Steve Eddy]

I have made this experiment with silver plated VS ofc copper, and the difference is big. There was no doubt what so ever about the result.

I don't doubt the result either. The question that remains however is what was the actual CAUSE of the result?

Was it in fact due to audible differences between silver and copper? Or was it due to your knowing which cable was silver and which cable was copper?

I know perfectly well that it wasnt a scientifical approach to just make 2 sets of speaker cables and try one set after the other, but considering the fact that the difference is as big as it is, i have no problem with the non scientifical approach.

Yet people have also purported big differences in the sound of their sytems after having placed photographs of themselves in their freezers. So subjectively perceiving big differences doesn't establish that the differences were due to copper versus silver.

Personally im more interested in an explanation of why silver sounds different, since the resistance cant make much difference.

Is all you want just some "explanation" or are you wanting to try and get at the truth of the matter? It seems to me that all you really want to do is confirm a preconceived belief, which may or may not be the truth.

se

 

[Magura]

To make a long story short. Even my wife could tell the difference, and at the time being she didnt have a clue what it was all about.

It wasnt a matter of a could have been difference, but that the sound turned unpleasently sharp.

But make the experiment yourself, and see for yourself.
The wire used for the experiment was Habia EE1819
The copper was 19*0.25, OFC.

Magura

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

You're trying to equate two different conductors to whiskey versus water?

That's quite a leap there, Frank.

Exactly what difference in electrical properties of copper versus silver would be the equivalent of whiskey versus water?

No more a leap as to assume that since both copper and silver are metals they therefore must sound the same, I reckon.

Lots of peole have been using silver wires in audio both in a private environment as in a commercial one for well over a decade now.

When I first switched over to silver the difference was nothing short of incredible and let me tell you, that system was well into the megabuck high-end league already.

In short, the sliver cables stayed and will always remain there unless something substantially better shows up.
I know what that would be but there's no way I can afford it...

As far as the use of silver in voicecoils is concerned, I don't think it would be a good idea to have an existing copper coil replaced by a silver one.
IMO the entire unit has to be designed with such a silver coil in mind.

Why silver sounds the way it does?
I really wouldn't know and quite frankly I don't think I would enjoy it more if I did, or would I?

One thing's for sure, if there's something wrong with the system and you hook up a good set of silver I/C's, don't go blaming the cables.

To most people it often seems their logic to think that the latest change is at fault when something doesn't sound quite right.
They also can't believe that that expensive amp doesn't feel too happy in their set-up either...
The human mind is quite a tricky thing to handle...

Cheers,

 

[Steve Eddy]

To make a long story short. Even my wife could tell the difference, and at the time being she didnt have a clue what it was all about.

Anecdotes about disinterested third parties don't establish the truth either.

It wasnt a matter of a could have been difference, but that the sound turned unpleasently sharp.

Then it should be trivially easy for you to determine the difference under controlled conditions which would establish actual audibility.

Doing so would not only make you world famous as being the first person to ever have done so (and there is at least $5,000 being offered to the first person to do so), but it would also truly advance our knowledge and understanding.

But make the experiment yourself, and see for yourself. The wire used for the experiment was Habia EE1819
The copper was 19*0.25, OFC.

See what for myself? I've already said I don't doubt your results. It's that your results don't establish actual audibility. Nor would my results if I did the same thing as yourself.

And until you can first establish actual audibility, you can't hope to get at the truth and determine what actually caused the results you got.

But I think I'm wasting my breath here as you don't seem to have any interest whatsoever in trying to get at the truth.

se

 

[Magura]

Ok Frank...please spill the beans.

What is it that makes the sound change when using silver as i described?

I have heard of others later with the same experience.


Magura

 

[Magura]

Then it should be trivially easy for you to determine the difference under controlled conditions which would establish actual audibility.

And until you can first establish actual audibility, you can't hope to get at the truth and determine what actually caused the results you got.

But I think I'm wasting my breath here as you don't seem to have any interest whatsoever in trying to get at the truth.

se

Ill see if i can find the time to make the experiment under more reliable circumstances one of the nearest days.

Just gotta get myself a handfull of rca plugs and make the experiment with inter connects instead, since i have now soldered the speakercables directly on to the Xover.

Magura

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

What is it that makes the sound change when using silver as i described?

It seems you're assuming I know what it is, I don't.
I can guess, speculate and tell old fishwife stories about it and I can also have a whiskey. None of it is going to help any.

What I can say is that in many high resolution systems and given well recorded material it sounds much more like a mastertape or live performance, if you like, and that is the ultimate goal for me. Well mostly anyway.

Any further descriptions on my part and you'll soon think you're reading a Stereophile or similar mags' rave review...

From past experience I can also tell you that not all silverwire sounds alike, neither does copperwire for that matter.
Also, silverclad copper often sounds worse than plain good copper but that's a different story...

Cheers,

 

[Ken L]

here we go again _grin_

the nature of audio enthusiasts on the net never fails to let me down.

Have fun guys!

_Really Big Grin_

Regards

Ken L