Well, one of them seems to be defective (sounds very midrangy), but measure almost the same other than Fs which is more than 100Hz and way of specs. The SB are way more damped, kind of boring, I would say. For the price nothing special other than smaller faceplate.
My guys from Polish diyaudio said that HDS is mych more lively than ring dome SB. Then some say it's too brightish or edgy and needs some compensation. Anyway, the Satori wins the battle with 91300, no contest here. Friend of mine says that the best thing is to go with large waveguide, this way the power response of the system is much flatter and controlled, just some Studio monitors.
Well , it might be that old metal domes were zingy and distorted below 3-4kHz badly but SB26ADC with black anodized dome the latest SB26CDC with ceramic oxide coating measure very well, other t..han the 5-6kHz peak which makes crossover work tricky.
My guys from Polish diyaudio said that HDS is mych more lively than ring dome SB. Then some say it's too brightish or edgy and needs some compensation. Anyway, the Satori wins the battle with 91300, no contest here. Friend of mine says that the best thing is to go with large waveguide, this way the power response of the system is much flatter and controlled, just some Studio monitors.
Well , it might be that old metal domes were zingy and distorted below 3-4kHz badly but SB26ADC with black anodized dome the latest SB26CDC with ceramic oxide coating measure very well, other t..han the 5-6kHz peak which makes crossover work tricky.
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Ah I forgot to add, that most soft dome Seas tweeters have this house sound: detailed, bright, tizzy and kind of unnatural - not enough damping of the dome ? (the motor has no copper shorting rings). Maybe better suited for 3 way than 2 way as it would play away from the presence zone where it could be handled by well behaved midrange driver.
The SBs I have are the 29RDNC with Neodymium magnet and smaller chamber than the regular Ferrite motor. They're ok above 3k, but kind of death, overdamped sound. Hopefully the regular 29RDAC and 29SDAC are better. The SB26STAC soft dome is more natural sounding and works well above 3kHz, but needs some x-o fiddling to get best out of it. Dave Ralph did some mods to smooth out it's response by reducing internal resonances - interesting site for those who aren't afraid of taking drivers apart.
The SBs I have are the 29RDNC with Neodymium magnet and smaller chamber than the regular Ferrite motor. They're ok above 3k, but kind of death, overdamped sound. Hopefully the regular 29RDAC and 29SDAC are better. The SB26STAC soft dome is more natural sounding and works well above 3kHz, but needs some x-o fiddling to get best out of it. Dave Ralph did some mods to smooth out it's response by reducing internal resonances - interesting site for those who aren't afraid of taking drivers apart.
I'm not impressed with the 27TDFC nor 27TBFCG. I know people raved about them - but they put out too much energy in the 2Khz - 4KHz zone for my liking. I cannot have them flat. My current speakers have a BBC dip of sorts to compensate for the tweeters. Very similar to your curve above. You can actually hear them play louder than the midrange in my 3 ways on-axis. sure some could say the mix I was listening to is hot as some tracks sound great. Problem is my speakers need to be great nearly all of the time, not 60% of the time.
I never thought about adding impedance compensation nor a zobel. For me the energy above 10khz doesn't cause fatigue. I have a digital PEQ and I know it's the energy centred around 2.5KHz that is the problem with this tweeter.
I never thought about adding impedance compensation nor a zobel. For me the energy above 10khz doesn't cause fatigue. I have a digital PEQ and I know it's the energy centred around 2.5KHz that is the problem with this tweeter.
I used the 27TFFC for years, tried to get the best out of them but I gived up.
But lately I see that they can easily fitted to the Visaton WG148(R) waveguide, so I decided to buy those and give another chance for the soft dome, I will try soon.
Btw, that tweeter is widely used by PMC, even for their largest passive home speakers, but in those, the crossover is almost 4kHz according to the specs.
Anyway, I find that higher crossover point was better, so I am hoping the waveguide will help to reduce the crossing point.
But lately I see that they can easily fitted to the Visaton WG148(R) waveguide, so I decided to buy those and give another chance for the soft dome, I will try soon.
Btw, that tweeter is widely used by PMC, even for their largest passive home speakers, but in those, the crossover is almost 4kHz according to the specs.
Anyway, I find that higher crossover point was better, so I am hoping the waveguide will help to reduce the crossing point.
Dave Bullet, I agree the TDFCs play louder than measurements indicate, although I usually drop the tweeters some 2-3dB below 1kHz level ('better to be safe than sorry' like A-ha sings). Funny as the level is increased, they play louder than say the ring domed SBs, as if they weren't as linear as SB.
Ah, some associate good tweeter with lots of fake details, harmonics, 'brillianz' or whatever the Germans call it, but frankly I don't hear it when listen to live acoustic unamplified venue, especially in classical music. And one of Italian spkrs Sonus Faber Aida rolls the tweeter past 10kHz at 6dB/oct !, however they use small rear mid and tweeter to add sense of space. As for HDS tweeter seems quite popular in some Opera designs with 5" midwoofers (3k x-o ?)
Some spkrs just need to have some sort of a BBC dip to sound OK, and often depending on enclosure, drivers and their location the baffle Off Axis diffraction will compensate - ruler flat FR doesn't mean it should sound flat.
I have a few recordings that I use for checking other spkrs and voicing, I try not to allow for some strange Klang even if the recording is not 100% ����
All Best in 2021, hopefully we beat the Covid.
Ah, some associate good tweeter with lots of fake details, harmonics, 'brillianz' or whatever the Germans call it, but frankly I don't hear it when listen to live acoustic unamplified venue, especially in classical music. And one of Italian spkrs Sonus Faber Aida rolls the tweeter past 10kHz at 6dB/oct !, however they use small rear mid and tweeter to add sense of space. As for HDS tweeter seems quite popular in some Opera designs with 5" midwoofers (3k x-o ?)
Some spkrs just need to have some sort of a BBC dip to sound OK, and often depending on enclosure, drivers and their location the baffle Off Axis diffraction will compensate - ruler flat FR doesn't mean it should sound flat.
I have a few recordings that I use for checking other spkrs and voicing, I try not to allow for some strange Klang even if the recording is not 100% ����
All Best in 2021, hopefully we beat the Covid.
What I hear that the 27tffc has too much energy at the top octaves, the 27tdfc is the opposite. When I switched them I hear immediately, for this reason the 27tdfc need smaller coil + bigger cap to compensate it. The 27tdfc shows too strong information and dominate at the lower treble, simply it is tiring, like you listen a midrange or what. The very top end similar edgy like the 27tffc. You cannot rid of it.
At female vocals at bigger transients the 27tffc is shouting/screaming and fatiguing, fx. Lisa Stansfield. Simply I cannot listen at even at low volume. The 27tdfc is better, but not free of it.
Interesting but I never had such female voice problems with the Monacor Dt-254, but why? It is just a simple low cost tweeter, but definitely something better in it.
I am open to try another type, but which?
At female vocals at bigger transients the 27tffc is shouting/screaming and fatiguing, fx. Lisa Stansfield. Simply I cannot listen at even at low volume. The 27tdfc is better, but not free of it.
Interesting but I never had such female voice problems with the Monacor Dt-254, but why? It is just a simple low cost tweeter, but definitely something better in it.
I am open to try another type, but which?
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CSS LD25X?
A friend of mine Mark Kravchenko has lower resonance version of the older LD25X XBL tweeter - we have to make proper faceplate and waveguide for it. But this tweeter is nothing like what I hear from TDFC. And it can cross below 2k no problem, just needs some eq here and there.
karoly price doesn't always reflect the product quality, often it is hit or miss. If Monacor works for you go for it.
Maybe removing Ferrofluid as it was in case of Dayton RS28 would make the thing sound better? I had older Focal Tioxid tweeters (inverted titanium coated w. titanium oxide) from 90s, but the foam surround desintegrated. It was a decent, clean tweeter w/o Ferrofluid that worked well down to 2.5kHz. with 19mm voice coil. I will try to mod the x-o (cross it lower or higher, change the Q of the slope), but I don't think it will change the character of Seas tweeter.
A friend of mine Mark Kravchenko has lower resonance version of the older LD25X XBL tweeter - we have to make proper faceplate and waveguide for it. But this tweeter is nothing like what I hear from TDFC. And it can cross below 2k no problem, just needs some eq here and there.
karoly price doesn't always reflect the product quality, often it is hit or miss. If Monacor works for you go for it.
Maybe removing Ferrofluid as it was in case of Dayton RS28 would make the thing sound better? I had older Focal Tioxid tweeters (inverted titanium coated w. titanium oxide) from 90s, but the foam surround desintegrated. It was a decent, clean tweeter w/o Ferrofluid that worked well down to 2.5kHz. with 19mm voice coil. I will try to mod the x-o (cross it lower or higher, change the Q of the slope), but I don't think it will change the character of Seas tweeter.
So my conclusion is that the 27TDFC is not worth the trouble and the price, and there are better tweeters around. I tried this and that. Maybe there are midbass drivers that magically with 1189 (seems like Harbeth uses this tweeter in M series) but it doesn't play with myt Paper coned SB17NRXC or the older Focal midbasses. I'm temted to try Satori tweeter or at least Scan HDS.
Bye, bye Seas
Bye, bye Seas
At this moment I am trying a Scan-Speak D2905/93000 and really like it. Well balanced, very natural and musical sounding with rich details. Never fatiguing no matter how many hours listening. For my ears better than either the Seas 27tffc or 27tdfc. There are many tweeters out there of course but I think I will settle down with this Scan-Speak.
I managed to get a pair of Satori TW29D-B (8 ohm) during the madisound black friday sale last year. They arrived before Xmas but haven't had time to fit them.
I'm going to switch out the 27TDFC in my 3 ways with the Satori tweeter. It has the same 104mm faceplate size - just different mount hole spacings (easy enough to retrofit). Just need more T nuts.
I'm going to switch out the 27TDFC in my 3 ways with the Satori tweeter. It has the same 104mm faceplate size - just different mount hole spacings (easy enough to retrofit). Just need more T nuts.
I did that a few years back. You might find you need to enlarge the cutout slightly as the Satori faceplate in practice is a touch larger.
Lucky the two of You. The Scan 2905 series is known for being very civilized and supposedly easy to implement.
Dave, I'm jelous. I don't think Solen in Montreal has Black Friday sale like Madisound in Wisconsin. I'm very interested how the 8ohm Satori dome fares in your system, so please do an update once you have them crossed and tuned. Really would like to hear your honest opinion, rather than so called 'audiophile' BS reviewers use.
I also lean towards the 8ohm version than 4, but it's almost $40 more in Canada. Strange that SB went with 4ohm voice coil as default for their tweeters, rather than more amp friendly 6ohm.
ScottMoose - did you try the Satoris, or did you settle for something different?
Dave, I'm jelous. I don't think Solen in Montreal has Black Friday sale like Madisound in Wisconsin. I'm very interested how the 8ohm Satori dome fares in your system, so please do an update once you have them crossed and tuned. Really would like to hear your honest opinion, rather than so called 'audiophile' BS reviewers use.
I also lean towards the 8ohm version than 4, but it's almost $40 more in Canada. Strange that SB went with 4ohm voice coil as default for their tweeters, rather than more amp friendly 6ohm.
ScottMoose - did you try the Satoris, or did you settle for something different?
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Thanks for the tip. Will find out soon enough
It still cost me NZD$700 to buy and ship 4 drivers (a pair of MR16 - 8 ohm and the tweeters). Luckily NZ Government has raised the tax free import limit to NZD$1000 so I didn't have to pay our GST on top (15%).
Having said that, I now have 4 great drivers that will get me more years of satisfying music for reasonable outlay.
We do have an Australian based supplier - which otherwise would be cheaper (at least shipping from Indonesia for SBA drivers should in theory be a little cheaper!)
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