Yes. And the sound...I would not hesitate to spend the money for that midrange again.
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/ellips-a/
Very nice Pida. Seems really like end game 3 way...I like that this one is sealed and Thiel-like front baffles in your projects...
I can see that Ellipticor has completely coated back side of the cone...what are your impressions in comparison with Satori MW16P? Because Satori is one of the most compliant and lightest non-treated paper drivers on market. Cms and Rms values are quite opposite between these two...And also, it is possible to do similar edge coating on Satori and make it almost perfect for midrange duties...distortion is in the same ballpark for both units...
What are sonical differences from your experiences?
I can see that Ellipticor has completely coated back side of the cone...what are your impressions in comparison with Satori MW16P? Because Satori is one of the most compliant and lightest non-treated paper drivers on market. Cms and Rms values are quite opposite between these two...And also, it is possible to do similar edge coating on Satori and make it almost perfect for midrange duties...distortion is in the same ballpark for both units...
What are sonical differences from your experiences?
what a great job !! you like the 12wu ? I dream on D8404/552000 this days
Can I suggest some diy fun on Nelson amp ? are really great
Sasha: It is quite difficult to answer so I will have to elaborate a bit....
Following experiences are subjective, and includes also feedback from other listeners who could have listened to my projects.
First of all, I never got perfect sound from SB/Satori + Scan Speak combinations (mid+woofer). Good and very good yes, but after listening to Ellips-A or Illu3 and after some non-published projects I came to the conclusion SS and SB are not good to combine. There were two projects where I had to replace woofer or midrange drivers to achieve more then good sound. I have to emphasize that from drivers of Satori and Scan Speak Revelator/Illuminator/Ellipticor league I expect nothing but perfect sound. Both brands can offer good technical performance and very good sound, though they have different philosophies....
Generaly, as I see it, Scan speak drivers have very good technical performance, not Purifi or Satori class, not as linear as one would wish, distortion measurements are very good though not perfect, cone/surround resonances are are usually identifiable...but the sound, well, I was never disappointed with the sound of Scan Speak (32W revelator, 18W Rev, 12M, 12MU, 18WU, 18WE, 18W Rev, 18W Classic,....) and with the overall result. It is like they have energy, they want to play, and sometimes they need to tame to achieve the overall balance.
SB/Satori always seemed to me somewhat laid back, calmer, not that involving compared to Scan Speak drivers. I have experience with SB17MFC, SB17CAC, SB17NBAC, WO24P, MW16P, MW16TX, MW19P, MW13P, SB23NBAC, ....
One of an examples, I did a 3way with 28W/4878T01, MW19P and SS6600 in WG. After a lot of burn in, crossover itterations and listening sessions I was not happy with the bass performance at all, veeery deep, but also lacking the punch, suffocated,.... After all experiments I decided to swap midrange, to 18WU. Quick on axis measurement, crossover modelling, crossover update, and voila, bass became excellent as I would expect from 28W Rev. There was an energy, kick, certain lightness and impact, generally the oppossite of the previous.
Following experiences are subjective, and includes also feedback from other listeners who could have listened to my projects.
First of all, I never got perfect sound from SB/Satori + Scan Speak combinations (mid+woofer). Good and very good yes, but after listening to Ellips-A or Illu3 and after some non-published projects I came to the conclusion SS and SB are not good to combine. There were two projects where I had to replace woofer or midrange drivers to achieve more then good sound. I have to emphasize that from drivers of Satori and Scan Speak Revelator/Illuminator/Ellipticor league I expect nothing but perfect sound. Both brands can offer good technical performance and very good sound, though they have different philosophies....
Generaly, as I see it, Scan speak drivers have very good technical performance, not Purifi or Satori class, not as linear as one would wish, distortion measurements are very good though not perfect, cone/surround resonances are are usually identifiable...but the sound, well, I was never disappointed with the sound of Scan Speak (32W revelator, 18W Rev, 12M, 12MU, 18WU, 18WE, 18W Rev, 18W Classic,....) and with the overall result. It is like they have energy, they want to play, and sometimes they need to tame to achieve the overall balance.
SB/Satori always seemed to me somewhat laid back, calmer, not that involving compared to Scan Speak drivers. I have experience with SB17MFC, SB17CAC, SB17NBAC, WO24P, MW16P, MW16TX, MW19P, MW13P, SB23NBAC, ....
One of an examples, I did a 3way with 28W/4878T01, MW19P and SS6600 in WG. After a lot of burn in, crossover itterations and listening sessions I was not happy with the bass performance at all, veeery deep, but also lacking the punch, suffocated,.... After all experiments I decided to swap midrange, to 18WU. Quick on axis measurement, crossover modelling, crossover update, and voila, bass became excellent as I would expect from 28W Rev. There was an energy, kick, certain lightness and impact, generally the oppossite of the previous.
12MU is my favorite midrange, it sounds very good with R3004 and T25B as well.
Thanks Pida, direct experiences are really precious...
I'm listening at home MW16P and SBCAC17 drivers and find them to be incredibly alive and present....they are among just few that are candidates for my 3way project.
Regarding ScanSpeak, prices of Ellipticor are generally out of range so we will not see a lot of diy projects with them I guess...
I'm listening at home MW16P and SBCAC17 drivers and find them to be incredibly alive and present....they are among just few that are candidates for my 3way project.
Regarding ScanSpeak, prices of Ellipticor are generally out of range so we will not see a lot of diy projects with them I guess...
What was woofer driver? Do you have any measurements?
Following steps might bring an improvement:
1. keep LR2, just go higher with Fc, to 300-350Hz. This should be easy to try.
2. Try LR4, though this is quite a change and will require a lot of components, and Vituix sims to keep impedance >3ohms, depending on drivers impedance.
3. Sometimes "no punch" is caused by lifted midrange ~500Hz, be sure your measurements are reliable, and/or try to lower this area by 1-2dB. Higher primary woofer crossover coil inductance could help.
Presently running illuminator in a 3 way, but too neutral for me and lacking warmth (and some mid-range heft) are revelator and/or Ellipticor drivers warmer/fuller sounding?Also, fantastic bass and warm natural presentation. I wish I could get the same response in a cabinet half the size though.Otherwise the Revelators are thrilling mid-woofers.
I've had SB Satori WO24P before, it it sounded warmer to me.... perhaps SB acoustics papyrus is just the best for me. I read Seas Nextel is warm as well, but perhaps a bit too smooth sounding/lack of dynamics?
I'd consider the Ellipticor if it was warm(ish) sounding, but with amazing dynamics beyond the others - what would be worth the price of admission.
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@Pida I think you've used both the Nextel and the Ellipticor in different designs.
Yes. My experience with scan speak and sb or satori drivers is based on several projects, some drivers I used several times, and I also listened to several diy or commercial projects, which confirmed my observations.
W18nx, I used this driver just once because the client had it already. It would not be my choice. I always try to imprint also some visual appeal to my projects, I wanted woofers to have similar look, so wf223bd was the choice. This project was success and I liked the overall result.
Woofer is eton 11-612
I maybe have make a little bit smaller woofer enclosure with lower tuning. It is now 65 litres and tuned to 30hz reflex.
Yes, i have measurements. And maybe i do new measurents and try to change more robust tweeter. Now i have scan speak 9130 tweeter and it is not working proberly with 2khz cross. (Not my favourite tweeter)
Yes, W18NX001 is warm and "smooth" sounding driver. But frequency response is quite challenging. I would not use it again.
Good call on wf223bd, similar traits as Satori WO24P-4. Would you use wf223bd over Ellipticor mid?
What we’re your thoughts on Ellipticor tweeter, does it offer better dynamics due to 1.5”?
Did you mean WF223bd vs 21WE, for woofer duty?
So far I have no experiences with Ellipticor tweeters, I like the sound of Revelator and Illuminator domes and radiators, though Bliesma Berylium is step up in resolution and sound quality, at least for my ears. So Bliesma would be my choice nowadays.
Cool - I was asking about 21WE on mid-bass duty. Thanks for your feedback, I’ll look at Wavecor too.
I have the 4 ohm Ellipticor 18WE. I originally tried it as a T/M using a Mundorf AMT25 tweeter and I was underwhelmed by the bass, it sounded respectable but I much prefer the Illuminator AND the Revelator 18w bass over the Ellipticor. But the midrange from the Ellipticor 18WE is the best I've ever used, so I decided to do a TMWW with it using Revelator 18W woofers. It sounds absolutely amazing, the best design I've done yet. Crossover points are 300 Hz, and 2.5khz. 2nd order electrical woofer to mid, 3rd order electrical mid to tweeter (2nd order electrical mid to tweeter also worked, but I wanted more protection on the Mundorf and 3rd order didn't sound much different). In addition to being the best midrange I've heard, it was insanely easy to work with. Pretty much anything I tried sounded amazing when it was used as a midrange, which is very handy for finding a xover point to a tweeter.
Up to this point, my favorite mids were either the Satori MR16P, or the SS 18M (or 18W), and what it's worth, as a midrange I actually prefer the Revelator over the Illuminator. But the Ellipticor trumps them all IMO. It does share sonic characteristics with the Revelator 18W, but will play higher and definitely has a more 3 dimensional soundstage.
Is it worth $820?? That's up to whoever has the cash. It is the best midrange I've used yet, but IN MY OPINION, while it is better than the Revelator, I'm not sure $600 better than the Revelator and I don't currently have a build that has a 18W as a mid to do that comparison. I do have a build coming up where I'll use a 18M under a Raal tweeter in another TMWW, so this will be a very interesting, side-by-side comparison of both the 18WE to the 18W, and comparing the Mundorf to the Raal 70-20.
Up to this point, my favorite mids were either the Satori MR16P, or the SS 18M (or 18W), and what it's worth, as a midrange I actually prefer the Revelator over the Illuminator. But the Ellipticor trumps them all IMO. It does share sonic characteristics with the Revelator 18W, but will play higher and definitely has a more 3 dimensional soundstage.
Is it worth $820?? That's up to whoever has the cash. It is the best midrange I've used yet, but IN MY OPINION, while it is better than the Revelator, I'm not sure $600 better than the Revelator and I don't currently have a build that has a 18W as a mid to do that comparison. I do have a build coming up where I'll use a 18M under a Raal tweeter in another TMWW, so this will be a very interesting, side-by-side comparison of both the 18WE to the 18W, and comparing the Mundorf to the Raal 70-20.
mattsk8: I fully agree and support your 18WE assessment. For me it has better midrange qualities than ATC mid, Satori TX, etc. But we have to keep in mind that percieved midrange sound is very much affected by woofer and tweeter and filter slopes so it is not easy to just isolate and assess the midrange driver in multiway speaker.
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Amen brother, agree with all you said (except maybe the ATC, that's a tall order and would be very fun to hear side-by-side with the Ellipticor 18WE). The one caveat I'll add with the Ellipticor though... is that as a midrange it seems to play well no matter what you do with it, so while I obviously haven't tried it with everything, it seems like the sound of the Ellipticor will be less negatively effected by the drivers it's paired with, or various xovers topologies than the Satori MR16P would for example. Basically, it seems like synergy with the 18WE is endless.
And for the record, I'm not bashing the Satori MR16P, it's a phenomenal midrange, just takes a little more work to find it than the Ellipticor, and I think ultimately the Ellipticor does sound better.
It's incredible how this thread evolved, bashing ellitpicor for being expensive to glorifying lately! I'm not in either camp, it's just useless to ask for opinions of drivers in general. Implementation rules, rooms, then comes taste! Rooms and taste can be switched in importance...
For someone to bash a driver they've never heard is childish and stupid in my opinion. Discussing measurements and debating design is one thing, but to make blanket statements about performance or sound before we've actually even heard a driver is complete nonsense. I've had mine for about 3 years now and avoided posting anything about it just because I didn't want to get in the middle of that nonsense. It's a speaker, regardless of anything it'll end up a subjective opinion, and my subjective opinion is that it's one of the best mids I've ever heard, but not so fantastic as a woofer.