Great. No charge. I will build as close to a match as possible. It is a bit imprecise as the soldering is a bit of a hit or miss. When you actually nail this invisible wire, you take what you can get and measure to see what you got. 2 should be pretty close to each other at this resistance. Once built there is no drift. They are very stable at all temperatures. That is their strong point.
I'll send pm when I have them to get your mailing address.
Walter
I'll send pm when I have them to get your mailing address.
Walter
Last edited:
Walter,
Thanks a bunch again. You can PM me when you're ready. As far as compairing them to Rhopoints, I never got any answers from Rhopoints after some attempts.
Jameshillj is trying to get in touch with them. Let's see what comes out of it.
Regards
Scorpion
220R Shinkoh Tantalum-1Mega Riken Ohms-220K Ohmite "Little Rebel" carbon film
Hi all,
Well, here are the results of the last resistors I had on hands for the trials at the 220K position.
Just a little side note before I start. I know ('cause I've heard about it) that some people doubt the 220Ks could have an impact on the DCB1's sound since they are in parallel to the ground at the input...but I assure you that THEY DO make an easily distinguishable sound impact. If you have any doubts, just try the experience and hear for yourself. You'll see.
In fact, in order of sonic impact, so far, the 220Rs at the input are nothing short of striking. Then, it's the 220Ks, followed by the 220Rs at the output and then, the 1 Megas (// to the ground at the output). Still, they ALL do have an impact. After you give them a try, and assuming one's system has good enough resolution, any doubts should fade away and most might switch from potential naysayers to believers (because of real life experience, not pure faith).
Ok, back on topic. The Ohmite "Little Rebel" carbon films I had were 1/4 watt. I had nothing else on hand. I would usually try to avoid using 1/4/waters in circuits even if they would meet intended designers basic specs requirements. I would use at least 1/2 or 1 watters because-- most of the time-- higher wattages sound significantly better (with some reservations here and there related to mix and matching). Still, these 1/4 watt Ohmite carbon films were, nonetheless, pretty good overall....
In fact, these "Little Rebels" are well balanced overall. No major strengths nor major weaknesses. They do have a good level of transparency which allows details to be clearly heard although not at the same level as the bests in this regards, like the Amtrans, tantalums and Rikens.
These Ohmites do sound pretty natural and easy on the ears. They are even slightly euphonic. Strings, drums and piano have good edges without ever sounding edgy. Now, these edges are not as delineated as with metal films (or even Rikens) but nothing to seriously complain about....although notes are very slightly "fat" sounding.
Voices are a little laid-back in their presentation but do have good density and a touch of sweetness, realism and humanness. Imaging is good and stable but focus is a hair fuzzy and not as good as the bests.
The soundstage is both reasonably deep and wide. Again, good but not outstanding. The amount of air between instruments is not staggering but still easily distinguishable. Harmonics are in the top tiers and notes keep resonating pretty naturally.
Finally, timbres are accurate and natural and render instruments believable tonally.
Overall --- at the 220K position--- the Ohmite "Little Rebels" carbon films had a good performance. They do sound similar to the Takman REX carbon films as both are non-fatiguing and somewhat natural BUT I found the Ohmites more lively, less colored and overall more musical than their Takmans counterparts. The Ohmites don't sound as big either.
In the DCB1, at this position, the "Little Rebels" perform well. They are to resistors what Auricaps are to capacitors: never outstanding, never seriously flawed !
What's cool is that they are readily available and very cheap. Yet they sport magnetic end caps....without a splashy treble !!
Regards
Scorpion
Hi all,
Well, here are the results of the last resistors I had on hands for the trials at the 220K position.
Just a little side note before I start. I know ('cause I've heard about it) that some people doubt the 220Ks could have an impact on the DCB1's sound since they are in parallel to the ground at the input...but I assure you that THEY DO make an easily distinguishable sound impact. If you have any doubts, just try the experience and hear for yourself. You'll see.
In fact, in order of sonic impact, so far, the 220Rs at the input are nothing short of striking. Then, it's the 220Ks, followed by the 220Rs at the output and then, the 1 Megas (// to the ground at the output). Still, they ALL do have an impact. After you give them a try, and assuming one's system has good enough resolution, any doubts should fade away and most might switch from potential naysayers to believers (because of real life experience, not pure faith).
Ok, back on topic. The Ohmite "Little Rebel" carbon films I had were 1/4 watt. I had nothing else on hand. I would usually try to avoid using 1/4/waters in circuits even if they would meet intended designers basic specs requirements. I would use at least 1/2 or 1 watters because-- most of the time-- higher wattages sound significantly better (with some reservations here and there related to mix and matching). Still, these 1/4 watt Ohmite carbon films were, nonetheless, pretty good overall....
In fact, these "Little Rebels" are well balanced overall. No major strengths nor major weaknesses. They do have a good level of transparency which allows details to be clearly heard although not at the same level as the bests in this regards, like the Amtrans, tantalums and Rikens.
These Ohmites do sound pretty natural and easy on the ears. They are even slightly euphonic. Strings, drums and piano have good edges without ever sounding edgy. Now, these edges are not as delineated as with metal films (or even Rikens) but nothing to seriously complain about....although notes are very slightly "fat" sounding.
Voices are a little laid-back in their presentation but do have good density and a touch of sweetness, realism and humanness. Imaging is good and stable but focus is a hair fuzzy and not as good as the bests.
The soundstage is both reasonably deep and wide. Again, good but not outstanding. The amount of air between instruments is not staggering but still easily distinguishable. Harmonics are in the top tiers and notes keep resonating pretty naturally.
Finally, timbres are accurate and natural and render instruments believable tonally.
Overall --- at the 220K position--- the Ohmite "Little Rebels" carbon films had a good performance. They do sound similar to the Takman REX carbon films as both are non-fatiguing and somewhat natural BUT I found the Ohmites more lively, less colored and overall more musical than their Takmans counterparts. The Ohmites don't sound as big either.
In the DCB1, at this position, the "Little Rebels" perform well. They are to resistors what Auricaps are to capacitors: never outstanding, never seriously flawed !
What's cool is that they are readily available and very cheap. Yet they sport magnetic end caps....without a splashy treble !!
Regards
Scorpion
Attachments
soldering joints aging ... brass sleeve contacts are better
Hello Scorpion,
just went thru the whole thread twice. Glad your health is climbing uphill again !
About 10ys ago, i made a similar listening comparison with 0µ47 coupling capacitors in a L'Audiophile Kaneda preamp (worst case condition: DC to be blocked just about 150mV).
So i know how much persistence is needed to go thru such a long-term test. My respect!
I gathered that you use brass sleeve contacts to make the resistors swiftly swappable. A very good decision !
, avoiding the aging of solder joints as a sonic influence. I have observed that -- (not only) for serious listening comparisons -- that fresh solder joints sound quite nastily rough and coarse, that solder joints about an hour old still sound annoying. Day-old solder joints are sonically bearable and on a week-old joint the effect is almost gone. Between vintage solder joints and joints atleast 3 weeks old i do not hear a difference anymore (before the engineering-minded naysayers chime in, let me remind you that metallurgic re-crystallisation processes can take some time. Example: if you bend copper 10-20x, it will break at the bend location, due to local cold deformation hardening. And after 6 months, the local brittleness has returned to full ductility and the copper is soft again.
Let me tell you all a story (anecdotal evidence, of course) of my buddy Gerald' experience with that (Gerald is a very experienced ampifier buider and CD modder). He re-wired his nice little tube amplifier (having a 6V6 as an output tube) from ultra-linear to triode-mode and did a listening comparison right away ... and phoned me to tell me (utterly convinced) that the sonic difference between ultra-linear and triode-mode operation is vastly overrated. Having done that comparison myself, i just wondered whether Gerald just came unglued
but decided to keep my mouth shut and wait. 4 weeks later he phones me again, same topic, he had repeated the comparison and now the result was as i would expected it: triode mode sounding more detailed, organic, musical, richer etc. Together we mused what had messed up his first listening comparison: it must have been the fresh solder joints. He reported that for his 2nd test, circumstances forced him to wait for more than a week between soldering and listening. And i wondered why my coupling cap comparison had been so clear and decisive and repeatable back then. Answer: without knowing, i had went thru up to ten vinyl record sides to also find out how long-term listenability of the cap under test would be. And right afterwards i soldered the cap which was intended to be tested next evening. And so the solder joint holding the cap in the circuit was never younger that n times 24 hours, n being atleast one.
Bottom line: on Gerald's 1st amplifier test, the sonic difference between the same amp wired in ultra-linear or in triode mode drowned in the sonic pollution of a set of fresh solder joints. Not in the 2nd test as the joints were sufficiently aged. And not in my cap test back then as the joints were (sometimes barely) sufficiently aged.
Regards,
Bernhard
PS:
For the couling cap test we did measurements, too, after the listening tests. We measured tangens delta, microphonics, dielectric absorption. And if we had excess samples, we opened them to look at the connection between capacitor element and lead wire. And we checked whether the cap was magnetic in any way.
Two caps won the listening comparison by a comfortable margin: Siemens MKV B25839 and Siemens MKY. Looking at the lab results showed that both had the lowest tangens delta and the best dielectric absorption, the latter by almost a factor of 10. And in general, all caps being loved/hugged by a magnet were barely or not listenable.
Scorpion, for your resistor test please check whether the tested resistors are magnetic or not. I would not be surprised if among the test winners, there is no magnetic one.
Hello Scorpion,
just went thru the whole thread twice. Glad your health is climbing uphill again !
About 10ys ago, i made a similar listening comparison with 0µ47 coupling capacitors in a L'Audiophile Kaneda preamp (worst case condition: DC to be blocked just about 150mV).
So i know how much persistence is needed to go thru such a long-term test. My respect!
I gathered that you use brass sleeve contacts to make the resistors swiftly swappable. A very good decision !
, avoiding the aging of solder joints as a sonic influence. I have observed that -- (not only) for serious listening comparisons -- that fresh solder joints sound quite nastily rough and coarse, that solder joints about an hour old still sound annoying. Day-old solder joints are sonically bearable and on a week-old joint the effect is almost gone. Between vintage solder joints and joints atleast 3 weeks old i do not hear a difference anymore (before the engineering-minded naysayers chime in, let me remind you that metallurgic re-crystallisation processes can take some time. Example: if you bend copper 10-20x, it will break at the bend location, due to local cold deformation hardening. And after 6 months, the local brittleness has returned to full ductility and the copper is soft again.Let me tell you all a story (anecdotal evidence, of course) of my buddy Gerald' experience with that (Gerald is a very experienced ampifier buider and CD modder). He re-wired his nice little tube amplifier (having a 6V6 as an output tube) from ultra-linear to triode-mode and did a listening comparison right away ... and phoned me to tell me (utterly convinced) that the sonic difference between ultra-linear and triode-mode operation is vastly overrated. Having done that comparison myself, i just wondered whether Gerald just came unglued
but decided to keep my mouth shut and wait. 4 weeks later he phones me again, same topic, he had repeated the comparison and now the result was as i would expected it: triode mode sounding more detailed, organic, musical, richer etc. Together we mused what had messed up his first listening comparison: it must have been the fresh solder joints. He reported that for his 2nd test, circumstances forced him to wait for more than a week between soldering and listening. And i wondered why my coupling cap comparison had been so clear and decisive and repeatable back then. Answer: without knowing, i had went thru up to ten vinyl record sides to also find out how long-term listenability of the cap under test would be. And right afterwards i soldered the cap which was intended to be tested next evening. And so the solder joint holding the cap in the circuit was never younger that n times 24 hours, n being atleast one.Bottom line: on Gerald's 1st amplifier test, the sonic difference between the same amp wired in ultra-linear or in triode mode drowned in the sonic pollution of a set of fresh solder joints. Not in the 2nd test as the joints were sufficiently aged. And not in my cap test back then as the joints were (sometimes barely) sufficiently aged.
Regards,
Bernhard
PS:
For the couling cap test we did measurements, too, after the listening tests. We measured tangens delta, microphonics, dielectric absorption. And if we had excess samples, we opened them to look at the connection between capacitor element and lead wire. And we checked whether the cap was magnetic in any way.
Two caps won the listening comparison by a comfortable margin: Siemens MKV B25839 and Siemens MKY. Looking at the lab results showed that both had the lowest tangens delta and the best dielectric absorption, the latter by almost a factor of 10. And in general, all caps being loved/hugged by a magnet were barely or not listenable.
Scorpion, for your resistor test please check whether the tested resistors are magnetic or not. I would not be surprised if among the test winners, there is no magnetic one.
Last edited:
Scorpion same experience here , I mix a lot cap /resistor ,one mod need at last one or two mod for balance the sound I like ...ie detailed but smooth ,read the right H2 H3 mix
Hi Nicoch58,
Thanks for chipping in. I have also experienced the same thing as you: sometimes modding one parameter required some mods somewhere else to retain or improve the overall balance.
Btw, what did you mean by "right H2 H3 mix" ?
Regards
Scorpion
Hi AndrewT,
Glad to hear from you.
Noise from CC is, in fact, clearly audible...but strangely it kind of adds something a little euphonic to the sound, at least in some cases.
About the noise topic, what can be the reason (technical) for the obvious darker background in music between say, a Vishay Z-Foil and a metal film? Is it THD related?
Also, back on CC. How much % of drift could be expected from CC over time? Would a resistor keep drifting on and on and on or is there some kind of "saturating/ceiling point"?
I am asking because I did order some 200Rs Allen-Bradleys @ 5% --on purpose--- for eventually trying @ 220R...since I knew about that drifting thing. Now, they both measure 218R, wich put them within 1% of real life targeted value. Do you think they should be pretty much done drifting or should I expect another significant increase from their initial 200R value?
I mean, there has to be an end to the phenom.
Thanks for sharing your great knowledge.
Regards
Scorpion
I have read about 20% drift in value over time for CC.
I have so few recovered from old gear that I don't think any experiments on them would prove anything.
I think they are not as well sealed as modern types and this may affect what they absorb from the atmosphere. This could point to "baking" as a stabilisation technique that might be worth adopting.
I have so few recovered from old gear that I don't think any experiments on them would prove anything.
I think they are not as well sealed as modern types and this may affect what they absorb from the atmosphere. This could point to "baking" as a stabilisation technique that might be worth adopting.
Hi Andrew T,
Thanks for the answer. 20% is very significant indeed. I already tried to bake them as recommended (low temp for 8 hours) bud managed to loose about 2% of drifted value. Maybe I should have left them for much longer?
Anyway, does the baking tend to kind of "seal them" once and for all?
Thanks again
Regards
Scorpion
P.S. I have a love 'n hate relationship with the CCs. Very natural, superb timbres and highly coherent and musical ...BUT noisy, lacking in transparency, slightly fat sounding...and drifting.
The low temperature baking is reputed to drive out water from the resistor.
There are likely to be some volatiles that may also be reduced during this baking.
The porous nature of the carbon will still be able o absorb water and other vapours from the atmosphere. Carbon is excellent at doing this. They use carbon in your cooker hood filter to absorb the smells. Carbon is likely to be one constituent of gas mask filters.
A metal can that is evacuated and hermetically sealed is probably the only way to "seal" the CC from the atmosphere. But how do the end leads get out?
CC have quite special parameters that suit some duties. Reserve them ONLY for those duties. Use proper resistors for audio signals.
There are likely to be some volatiles that may also be reduced during this baking.
The porous nature of the carbon will still be able o absorb water and other vapours from the atmosphere. Carbon is excellent at doing this. They use carbon in your cooker hood filter to absorb the smells. Carbon is likely to be one constituent of gas mask filters.
A metal can that is evacuated and hermetically sealed is probably the only way to "seal" the CC from the atmosphere. But how do the end leads get out?
CC have quite special parameters that suit some duties. Reserve them ONLY for those duties. Use proper resistors for audio signals.
It might be interesting to bake the resistor and then paint it with a transparent seal.
Product Catalog:3M? Novec? Electronic Grade Coatings
Product Catalog:3M? Novec? Electronic Grade Coatings
Yes, looks like a good idea! I had tons of AB resistors, a whole bag of them and gave them all away due to the huge drifting issues I was having with them... Maybe I could have tried this trick!
Do
Looks like Kondo uses epoxy..
I posted this before..
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kondo+m7+tube&biw=1455&bih=665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4JdLVcP5CcbxUNuBgcgE&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=0YHMup41ychLxM%253A%3Bh0p1VjCSQtOBXM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F07%252Fpreamp_g70_021.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.wordpress.com%252Fcategory%252Fpre-amplifiers%252F%3B800%3B710
Take a look at the first picture here:
DIY KSL-M7 Flat Amplifier(3) | ??????
The question still remains what causes the sound change..
I guess you could seal the AB's with epoxy the water is normally absorbed from the open ends of the resistor.
Many moons ago there was a fad of mounting components on black tac..
You could go organic similar things to tar..etc or potting compound which has an allowance for temperature and conduction /flex.
One site recommends shellac..however the comment here was shellac is effected by water..its what the guitar people use..
The old electrical insulation used shellac:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac
I have removed the lead outs in the past and replaced them with silver..if you look at the kondo picture I think they have replaced the lead outs look closely at the position are they in the centre of the resistor? its a bit overkill..
I find the "mix" makes a difference and the synergy with capacitor type..
Regards
M. Gregg
I posted this before..
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kondo+m7+tube&biw=1455&bih=665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4JdLVcP5CcbxUNuBgcgE&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=0YHMup41ychLxM%253A%3Bh0p1VjCSQtOBXM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F07%252Fpreamp_g70_021.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.wordpress.com%252Fcategory%252Fpre-amplifiers%252F%3B800%3B710
Take a look at the first picture here:
DIY KSL-M7 Flat Amplifier(3) | ??????
The question still remains what causes the sound change..
I guess you could seal the AB's with epoxy the water is normally absorbed from the open ends of the resistor.
Many moons ago there was a fad of mounting components on black tac..
You could go organic similar things to tar..etc or potting compound which has an allowance for temperature and conduction /flex.
One site recommends shellac..however the comment here was shellac is effected by water..its what the guitar people use..
The old electrical insulation used shellac:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac
I have removed the lead outs in the past and replaced them with silver..if you look at the kondo picture I think they have replaced the lead outs look closely at the position are they in the centre of the resistor? its a bit overkill..
I find the "mix" makes a difference and the synergy with capacitor type..
Regards
M. Gregg
Last edited:
Here is an English translation,
https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...2/03/19/diy-ksl-m7-flat-amplifier3/&edit-text=
Look at the description of the resistors..
Regards
M. Gregg
https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...2/03/19/diy-ksl-m7-flat-amplifier3/&edit-text=
Look at the description of the resistors..
Regards
M. Gregg
Hi AndrewT,
Thanks for your detailed answer. I get your point. Much appreciated.
Regards
Scorpion
P.S. Andrew, why would CC be useful for other duties if they tend to drift anyway? Wouldn't drifting affect intended specs requirements no matter what then?
Looks like Kondo uses epoxy..
I posted this before..
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kondo+m7+tube&biw=1455&bih=665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4JdLVcP5CcbxUNuBgcgE&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=0YHMup41ychLxM%253A%3Bh0p1VjCSQtOBXM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F07%252Fpreamp_g70_021.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fkondosoundlabs.wordpress.com%252Fcategory%252Fpre-amplifiers%252F%3B800%3B710
Take a look at the first picture here:
DIY KSL-M7 Flat Amplifier(3) | ??????
The question still remains what causes the sound change..
I guess you could seal the AB's with epoxy the water is normally absorbed from the open ends of the resistor.
Many moons ago there was a fad of mounting components on black tac..
You could go organic similar things to tar..etc or potting compound which has an allowance for temperature and conduction /flex.
One site recommends shellac..however the comment here was shellac is effected by water..its what the guitar people use..
The old electrical insulation used shellac:
Shellac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have removed the lead outs in the past and replaced them with silver..if you look at the kondo picture I think they have replaced the lead outs look closely at the position are they in the centre of the resistor? its a bit overkill..
I find the "mix" makes a difference and the synergy with capacitor type..
Regards
M. Gregg
Hi M.Gregg,
Thanks for chipping in. Well, I guess all those "aftermarket procedures" wheter on caps or resistors DO affect the specs AND the sound in the end.
I also noticed the surgeries Kondo does on these parts. It probably induce an intended and targeted unique sound.
Regards
Scorpion
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.