Nuuk, you´re absolutely right.
By no means I want to get personal and or off-topic but only adress my reply clearly.
And in the end everybody should be able to express his opinions here. (hopefully about audio topics
)
Kuei can hold his belly laughing about Rod´s article that´s OK.
But I also needed to hold mine reading his last sentence and I think that´s OK as well.
Sorry for being offtopic, go right on.
Jens
By no means I want to get personal and or off-topic but only adress my reply clearly.
And in the end everybody should be able to express his opinions here. (hopefully about audio topics
)Kuei can hold his belly laughing about Rod´s article that´s OK.
But I also needed to hold mine reading his last sentence and I think that´s OK as well.
Sorry for being offtopic, go right on.
Jens
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod Elliott
Nor did Einstein or Newton. Does that mean you are smarter than either of them? or 1/100th of them, Mr. Personal-Attack?
We are talking about a piece of equipment, Sir. If you have anything constructive to add to it, and you think you have facts to refute Rod, I am all ears. Anything else, please keep it to yourself.
As a banker, I actually have no problem with anyone selling a $1 amp at $1million price tag: more power to him/her. It is the hype around those amps and the implicit (and sometimes not so implicit) suggestion that those amps have performance to match their price tags that bugs me.
And those quotes did an excellent job speaking for themselves and those behind them,.
Again, let's focus on the amp itself and let's focus on the facts, science,not the hypes. We all are here for pursuit of better sound, nothing else.
Or that's not true for some of us?
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Nor did Einstein or Newton. Does that mean you are smarter than either of them? or 1/100th of them, Mr. Personal-Attack?
We are talking about a piece of equipment, Sir. If you have anything constructive to add to it, and you think you have facts to refute Rod, I am all ears. Anything else, please keep it to yourself.
As a banker, I actually have no problem with anyone selling a $1 amp at $1million price tag: more power to him/her. It is the hype around those amps and the implicit (and sometimes not so implicit) suggestion that those amps have performance to match their price tags that bugs me.
sobazz said:
And those quotes did an excellent job speaking for themselves and those behind them,
.Again, let's focus on the amp itself and let's focus on the facts, science,not the hypes. We all are here for pursuit of better sound, nothing else.
Or that's not true for some of us?
Mr Elliotts views
Hmmmmmmmm...... Having the opinion that an amp based on two dollar power Op Amp and selling for several thousand bucks is marketing approaching fraud. I see cable prices in the thousands of dollars range with technical claims that ARE absolute fraud. You tell me who is doing the art and commerce of high end audio a bigger disservice.
Rod is selling PCBs on his own website. In contrast, I have seen numerous attempts to plug his PCBs on this and other forums by a certain individual from a cold certain European country. How many PCBs based on Mr. Pass's designs (and a simplified clone of one of his designs by someone who never even actually built and listened to it as near as I can tell)! have been flogged on this forum?
If someone wants to disagree with some of the tweakier aspects of high end design, it is their right, even if you don't agree with him. There are a hell of a lot of things in a system to get right before the FEET ON AN AMPLIFIER BECOME A MAJOR CONCERN. Someone who will do it on their own website, instead of starting a damn two week argument on this forum, probably deserves a medal. There is plenty of useful information on his website for tweakers and beginners alike. I see he withdrew the project close to the ASKA design. I imagine this might have been in deference to Hugh Dean, who I have never seen say anything bad about Mr. Elliot. If someone thinks that Rod has ripped off someone's design, name names if you think you have proof. As far as ap notes, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR. That's why they are called application note. Having spent about two years unscrewing a telecom product who's biggest flaw was not following the ap notes, I have a bit different perspective I guess.
I have been in the middle of many of these ******* contest on the forum and it serves no one, i can assure you. I have sat out of the arguments for a couple of weeks and seen them only become more vindictive and personal to the point that many don't even want to read the forum anymore, much less contribute anything that is going to start a three week ******* contest. I have outgrown this (I hope... I am trying damn hard anyway) idea that it amusing anymore. A large part of the forum is either chip amps or someone with a chip on his shoulder. I don't which is more boring at this point. If people don't start showing some self moderation and the moderators start kicking some butt for real instead of one or two days in the sin bin, there isn't going to be anything left, other than people using the forum to try to sell things. If Steve Eddy and I can do it, so can anyone else who deserves to stick around here.
All things must pass,
Fred
Hmmmmmmmm...... Having the opinion that an amp based on two dollar power Op Amp and selling for several thousand bucks is marketing approaching fraud. I see cable prices in the thousands of dollars range with technical claims that ARE absolute fraud. You tell me who is doing the art and commerce of high end audio a bigger disservice.
Rod is selling PCBs on his own website. In contrast, I have seen numerous attempts to plug his PCBs on this and other forums by a certain individual from a cold certain European country. How many PCBs based on Mr. Pass's designs (and a simplified clone of one of his designs by someone who never even actually built and listened to it as near as I can tell)! have been flogged on this forum?
If someone wants to disagree with some of the tweakier aspects of high end design, it is their right, even if you don't agree with him. There are a hell of a lot of things in a system to get right before the FEET ON AN AMPLIFIER BECOME A MAJOR CONCERN. Someone who will do it on their own website, instead of starting a damn two week argument on this forum, probably deserves a medal. There is plenty of useful information on his website for tweakers and beginners alike. I see he withdrew the project close to the ASKA design. I imagine this might have been in deference to Hugh Dean, who I have never seen say anything bad about Mr. Elliot. If someone thinks that Rod has ripped off someone's design, name names if you think you have proof. As far as ap notes, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR. That's why they are called application note. Having spent about two years unscrewing a telecom product who's biggest flaw was not following the ap notes, I have a bit different perspective I guess.
I have been in the middle of many of these ******* contest on the forum and it serves no one, i can assure you. I have sat out of the arguments for a couple of weeks and seen them only become more vindictive and personal to the point that many don't even want to read the forum anymore, much less contribute anything that is going to start a three week ******* contest. I have outgrown this (I hope... I am trying damn hard anyway) idea that it amusing anymore. A large part of the forum is either chip amps or someone with a chip on his shoulder. I don't which is more boring at this point. If people don't start showing some self moderation and the moderators start kicking some butt for real instead of one or two days in the sin bin, there isn't going to be anything left, other than people using the forum to try to sell things. If Steve Eddy and I can do it, so can anyone else who deserves to stick around here.
All things must pass,
Fred
Rod Elliott presents Rod Elliott in "Mad As Hell"
In Rod’s doubts about the statements claiming “loss of the freshness of sound if energy supply depends on capacity of condensers”, I am with him.
Rod has objections about the GainCard’s price, and he is right, it is hugely overpriced…
But:
If Kimura did not sell his amp for all those $$$$, it would hardly happen anyone would notice his amp. It would hardly happen what in facts happens today – we build our gainclones … This is sad fact (of this life), but it is so.
Agreed, that was a classic example of what is in classic logic called an “argumentum ad hominem”.
Btw, reading Rod’s articles, I never got such trust in him to try anything he recommends or to forget anything he disqualifies…
Pedja
In Rod’s doubts about the statements claiming “loss of the freshness of sound if energy supply depends on capacity of condensers”, I am with him.
Rod has objections about the GainCard’s price, and he is right, it is hugely overpriced…
But:
If Kimura did not sell his amp for all those $$$$, it would hardly happen anyone would notice his amp. It would hardly happen what in facts happens today – we build our gainclones … This is sad fact (of this life), but it is so.
paulb said:
Agreed, that was a classic example of what is in classic logic called an “argumentum ad hominem”.
Btw, reading Rod’s articles, I never got such trust in him to try anything he recommends or to forget anything he disqualifies…
Pedja
Re: Rod Elliott presents Rod Elliott in "Mad As Hell"
I am not sure about it, Pedja. truth, any truth, will be discovered sooner or later. If Newton didn't see the falling apple, somebody else would and we would be naming Newton's law something else.
I am still not convinced that there is an extrordinary amount of performance in those chip amps (vis-a-vis discrete amps). It is after you factor in the ease of DIYing those chips, and their low prices (and others if you so desire) that the chip amps appeal to the DIY folks.
This is not to say that the chip amps are bad - they aren't.
Pedja said:
I am not sure about it, Pedja. truth, any truth, will be discovered sooner or later. If Newton didn't see the falling apple, somebody else would and we would be naming Newton's law something else.
I am still not convinced that there is an extrordinary amount of performance in those chip amps (vis-a-vis discrete amps). It is after you factor in the ease of DIYing those chips, and their low prices (and others if you so desire) that the chip amps appeal to the DIY folks.
This is not to say that the chip amps are bad - they aren't.
Unless, I'm mistaken (not unknown) IC based amps, commercial or DIY are limited in performance by the device itself. I.e., the best one can get is the the performance of the device under ideal operating conditions (perfect power supply, zero exposure to external EMI/RFI, zero xtalk from external connections etc.).
Based on building a LM3886 amp and a P3A, and observing the performance of each, I can see the source of Rod's aggravation.
If 47 Lab's product was sold on the basis of a pretty enclosure (functional sculpture) that would seem reasonable to me as much audio gear looks bland to ugly (per my tastes). If it was sold on the basis of verifiable and falsifiabnle performance gain that were known to be false that would be fraud. From the literature I've seen the GainCard is sold on neither basis but on what sounds to me like new-age/ psuedo-zen mumbo jumbo. Maybe their copywriter has been watching too much Star Wars and and wants to be Yoda.
Based on building a LM3886 amp and a P3A, and observing the performance of each, I can see the source of Rod's aggravation.
If 47 Lab's product was sold on the basis of a pretty enclosure (functional sculpture) that would seem reasonable to me as much audio gear looks bland to ugly (per my tastes). If it was sold on the basis of verifiable and falsifiabnle performance gain that were known to be false that would be fraud. From the literature I've seen the GainCard is sold on neither basis but on what sounds to me like new-age/ psuedo-zen mumbo jumbo. Maybe their copywriter has been watching too much Star Wars and and wants to be Yoda.
I was going to stay out of the gainclones discussions, but I can't resist anymore. Here is a list of some of the integrated amplifiers you can buy for around $1500. However, most of these have unnecessary features such as input selectors...
In no particular order: (prices may vary, may cause drowsiness, ask your doctor before using and so forth...)
Rotel RA-1070 $1200 http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/ra1070.htm
Creek 5350SE $1500 http://www.creekaudio.com/products/5350.asp
Musical Fidelity A3.2 $1500 http://www.musicalfidelity.com/a3_2intamp.html#frameint
Classe CAP 101 $1600 http://www.classeaudio.com/IntampCAP-101,151/IntampCAP101.html
Bryston B60 $1500 http://www.bryston.ca/b60cov.html
Any more?
In no particular order: (prices may vary, may cause drowsiness, ask your doctor before using and so forth...)
Rotel RA-1070 $1200 http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/ra1070.htm
Creek 5350SE $1500 http://www.creekaudio.com/products/5350.asp
Musical Fidelity A3.2 $1500 http://www.musicalfidelity.com/a3_2intamp.html#frameint
Classe CAP 101 $1600 http://www.classeaudio.com/IntampCAP-101,151/IntampCAP101.html
Bryston B60 $1500 http://www.bryston.ca/b60cov.html
Any more?
Surely a 32mm signal path aint worth that much.
Why not have a look at the concept. If you accept that the shorter signal path is inherently better, you really should have a reason why.
I think that there are dozens of concepts that we all accept (or have in the past) that really amount to nothing more than paranoia. Good engineering is always about balance. When you make a 32mm signal path, what do you give up?
Chris
Why not have a look at the concept. If you accept that the shorter signal path is inherently better, you really should have a reason why.
I think that there are dozens of concepts that we all accept (or have in the past) that really amount to nothing more than paranoia. Good engineering is always about balance. When you make a 32mm signal path, what do you give up?
Chris
Peter Daniel said:
You are forgetting one thing, none of those amps has 30mm signal path. How much is this worth?
I am sure this is worth $1500 to quite a few people, and all hail to you if you can own that niche of the market.
BTW from the pictures I have seen, the mechanical quality of your amp is so good that it makes your amplifier seem like a bargain compared to the original Gaincard!
Good luck Peter!
Actually the quote was
Please, if you are going to paraphrase someone a simple...between quotes would be helpful and courteous.
The point being, that by shortening the signal path, you must make a compromise somewhere. You must put components which may have deleterious effects on each other, closer together. In that case a short signal path would be the wrong choice. By colourations I assume you mean distortion? How do you eliminate distortion by simply providing a 32mm signal path?
Chris
Please, if you are going to paraphrase someone a simple...between quotes would be helpful and courteous.
The point being, that by shortening the signal path, you must make a compromise somewhere. You must put components which may have deleterious effects on each other, closer together. In that case a short signal path would be the wrong choice. By colourations I assume you mean distortion? How do you eliminate distortion by simply providing a 32mm signal path?
Chris
Christopher said:
I already fixed my lack of courtesy. Shortening the signal path doesn't always mean compromise. Using more components than necassary might be a compromise as well.
By coloration I don't mean distortion, but artifacts added to the sound and vailing due to excessive parts count. It cannot be distortions, as all those additional parts are there in a first place to take care of all distortions.
47 Laboratory claims the 32mm signal path as the world shortest. That's all.
Only reason why the 9mm NFB loop:
There is a strong belief among audiophiles that NFB is harmful to the sound and they hang their hopes on variations of non-NFB circuitry. I see potentials in that approach too, but through my experience with op-amps which require an attention in order of millimeter scale, I also realized a possibility to solve the problems associated with NFB by shortening the length of its loop.
JH
Only reason why the 9mm NFB loop:
There is a strong belief among audiophiles that NFB is harmful to the sound and they hang their hopes on variations of non-NFB circuitry. I see potentials in that approach too, but through my experience with op-amps which require an attention in order of millimeter scale, I also realized a possibility to solve the problems associated with NFB by shortening the length of its loop.
JH
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