Siegfried Linkwitz uses the term ''constant directionality'' in his preamble for his creations. Look at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
Hello,
Orion and similar dipoles have constant directivity in it's dipole range from 20Hz upwards all the way to the high midrange. It has directivity where it is needed most.
You know very well that direct radiator has uniform radiation pattern when operated in correct freq range.
- Elias
gedlee said:
Orion and similar dipoles have constant directivity in it's dipole range from 20Hz upwards all the way to the high midrange. It has directivity where it is needed most.
You know very well that direct radiator has uniform radiation pattern when operated in correct freq range.
- Elias
Elias said:
A direct radiator is only uniform when it is omni-directional. When mounted in an OB it is uniform only up to the point where the driver has a ka value less than 1.0, above which the directivity will begin to narrow, even in an OB, and it will no longer be uniform. To only operate a system with the drivers each only up to ka = 1 would require several crossovers and fairly small drivers, which is kind of like the Orion. Are there polar plots of the Orion that can be viewed to ***** just how constant the polar response is with frequency?
gedlee said:
I guess due to dipole operation, the directivity will be more constant from the very lows up to midrange than any closed box could ever have. And if you cross over low enough so that the tweeter matches the directivity then it is uniform enough. I thing driver "beaming" is much closer to a figure of eight pattern than to monopole pattern.
Well thats not wholly true. A closed box will hold its Omni- pattern just about as far as the dipole will hold its figure 8. In either case, once the driver dimensions get get be close to a 1/2 wavelength the directivity will become dominated by the drivers directivity almost completely independent of how its mounted. Exact baffle size has an effect at these frequencies however and its hard to generalize. The dipole does change less ( from a figure 8 to narrower) than the monopole (from omni to narrower), thats true, but they both narrow at about the same frequency.
"And if you cross over low enough so that the tweeter matches the directivity then it is uniform enough. "
I'm not sure what "uniform enough" means but what you say here is only true up until the weeter begins to beam and then then its not "uniform" anymore. For the onset of nonuniformity to be "high enough" in frequency the tweeter has to be small and then you have a very low crossover point for a small tweeter.
"And if you cross over low enough so that the tweeter matches the directivity then it is uniform enough. "
I'm not sure what "uniform enough" means but what you say here is only true up until the weeter begins to beam and then then its not "uniform" anymore. For the onset of nonuniformity to be "high enough" in frequency the tweeter has to be small and then you have a very low crossover point for a small tweeter.
john k... said:
I take a minority view there is more than one path to Nirvana - in politics, religion, worldview, and audio. Another minority are fundamentalists - they are convinced by their life experience there is One Truth, and they are on the correct path, while others have fallen off the way and need a bit of gentle correction.
I'm not sure there is any way to reconcile what are very different worldviews. I have the greatest respect for the top designers I've been fortunate enough to meet, but I don't think anyone has 100% of the answers, including myself. I think this is true in all fields - politics, religion, economics (as we have seen recently), and our own little pond, audio. Mankind is a very, very long way from having all the answers - I would surmise many millenia at the slow pace we're going.
What's awkward about loudspeakers is they go wrong in so many domains at once, it's hard to know what to measure, and what to prioritize. There are several (mutually exclusive) schools of design that claim they have The Truth, but I remain an agnostic, or more often, a mystic, following nothing more than intuition and a general "feel" for which way to go. I'm just not suited as a follower, disciple, or guru - in any field - and have gradually come to terms with that.
Sorry for the rather mystical and roundabout answer, but that's how I see the audio biz - I have the greatest respect for the people I've met over the years (the BBC Research team, Laurie Fincham, Richard Ashley, Siegfried Linkwitz, Dr. Geddes, and many others), but I'm not ready to follow any of them. Curious and interested, yes, but a disciple, no.
P.S. One of the things I like most about audio shows is they remind me of the streets of Hong Kong or a Mideastern bazaar, filled with all kinds of weird and wonderful things, and all kinds of interesting people, doing all kinds of truly inexplicable things. I like that.
Well said, I entirely agree with you. WHat's so refreshing about SL approach is he is not too worried about breaking his own rules, just look at the Pluto. Was this displayed in RMAF too?
I guess in many ways SL is just as DIY nuts, only smarter
And to think that someone's giving away all this information for *free* is so mind bogling
More importantly, I'm more convinced that whatever out there that is better than the stuff I'm listening to will also have their limitations. Ha! maybe just be happy with what one's got
I guess in many ways SL is just as DIY nuts, only smarter
And to think that someone's giving away all this information for *free* is so mind bogling
More importantly, I'm more convinced that whatever out there that is better than the stuff I'm listening to will also have their limitations. Ha! maybe just be happy with what one's got
I stayed in Orion room most of the day; I think I saw Lynn too. I can confirm that SL has used all 12 channel of the ATI amp, he bridged 2 channel to feed the woofers.
SL and his wife were nice enough to let me listen to Pluto, probably because I arrived early and there was not many people. It was very good and in first impression I like Pluto more. Perhaps I used to monitor type speaker.
During the day, I tried to listen to Orion as much as possible to get familiar how it sound, in a muscial way, which mean how well it will lead me to tap my foot. I'm so glad that Orion+ did not disappoint me, and it is now on my diy list.
SL and his wife were nice enough to let me listen to Pluto, probably because I arrived early and there was not many people. It was very good and in first impression I like Pluto more. Perhaps I used to monitor type speaker.
During the day, I tried to listen to Orion as much as possible to get familiar how it sound, in a muscial way, which mean how well it will lead me to tap my foot. I'm so glad that Orion+ did not disappoint me, and it is now on my diy list.
Attachments
Hey Lynn,
Contrary to what you have been told, the Classic Audio Reproductions T-1 is **not** the brainchild of Dr. Edgar. The cabinet work and product concept has always been done by John Wolf of Classic Audio Reproductions and he also defines the spec for the speaker. The woofer and midrange drivers are a collaboration between him and Sam (whose last name I don't recall right now, but is the country's leading field coil expert) and they (with a very slight amount of input from me) did the crossovers. Dr. Edgar designed and did a partial build on the midrange horn (John did the rest), at Sam's suggestion (I'm told). The tweeter had the most input from Dr Edgar.
I agree with Jonathan Valin- this speaker has transformed more than any other speaker design out there (and in only a year) and IMO is better at showing what horns can do that just about anything else, despite being a bass reflex (albeit a very well-behaved bass reflex, owing a little to the fact that the second woofer is down-firing).
I know of no other speaker that is as full-range, easy to drive, easy to set up in the room that is simultaneously as transparent and detailed. The room we had at RMAF, Salon A of the Evergreen Ballroom, is (I hope) obviously not the best place to show the speaker as it is quite reverberant; in addition the presence of the Hartsfield Reproductions right beside the T-1s didn't help a bit! In a more normal room setting the speaker is hard to fault by any standards.
Yeah- I bought a set
Contrary to what you have been told, the Classic Audio Reproductions T-1 is **not** the brainchild of Dr. Edgar. The cabinet work and product concept has always been done by John Wolf of Classic Audio Reproductions and he also defines the spec for the speaker. The woofer and midrange drivers are a collaboration between him and Sam (whose last name I don't recall right now, but is the country's leading field coil expert) and they (with a very slight amount of input from me) did the crossovers. Dr. Edgar designed and did a partial build on the midrange horn (John did the rest), at Sam's suggestion (I'm told). The tweeter had the most input from Dr Edgar.
I agree with Jonathan Valin- this speaker has transformed more than any other speaker design out there (and in only a year) and IMO is better at showing what horns can do that just about anything else, despite being a bass reflex (albeit a very well-behaved bass reflex, owing a little to the fact that the second woofer is down-firing).
I know of no other speaker that is as full-range, easy to drive, easy to set up in the room that is simultaneously as transparent and detailed. The room we had at RMAF, Salon A of the Evergreen Ballroom, is (I hope) obviously not the best place to show the speaker as it is quite reverberant; in addition the presence of the Hartsfield Reproductions right beside the T-1s didn't help a bit! In a more normal room setting the speaker is hard to fault by any standards.
Yeah- I bought a set
Thanks for the update and backgrounder on the new T1's.
From my perspective, the crossover designer is the real author of the speaker, since the crossover is where all the "voicing" and design priorities are expressed, and is also the most time-consuming and tedious part of the design.
Full credit to John Wolf and Sam for ditching the TAD driver lineup and going with the field-coils. New drivers, new crossover, new speaker.
From my perspective, the crossover designer is the real author of the speaker, since the crossover is where all the "voicing" and design priorities are expressed, and is also the most time-consuming and tedious part of the design.
Full credit to John Wolf and Sam for ditching the TAD driver lineup and going with the field-coils. New drivers, new crossover, new speaker.
Lynn Olson said:
I'm with you on that one, Lynn. And even more so this year than last. Lot's of different cool stuff. Sorry I missed you this year.The Orions did not impress me at all. In fact I'm rather bummed that they were so ordinary. Not very dynamic, nor life-like, nor musical. Well controlled, yes - but maybe too well controlled. Seemed to be a problem with so many OB systems this year.
The Pluto, however - was great fun! And Mr. Linkwitz is very gracious and intellegent. Sorry I didn't care for the Orions...
I did hear the big RAAL omni rig, even played my test cut on it. OK, but a lot of problems. The sections didn't intergrate well to my ear. However, there was a small speaker from Serbia that I think had the RAAL tweeter - I liked it a lot. Think it was SOLAJA AUDIO.
Yes, I heard them - they were just down the hall from Alexander. Beautiful woodwork, non-intimidating moderate-sized speakers with Audio Technology midbass and RAAL tweeters. A great combination, smooth and silky, with a lot of charm to the presentation. Nice speakers.
Listening to Alexander's tweeters sort of spoils you for the usual run-of-the-mill Vifa/Scan-Speak/Seas 1" dome tweeter, doesn't it? Just like DHT triodes, it's hard to go back.
There is a weird thing going on with a lot of high-end "standard-efficiency" speakers - they can be very picky about the recordings you play, particularly vintage late-Fifties recordings. A vintage recording - say, RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence - can sound absolutely glorious on a well-tuned horn system, thrilling, exciting, with lots of shimmer and sparkle, and most all, an almost tactile you-are-there presence. You can hear this before the music starts - the space is filled with a sense of presence, of expectation, of people moving around.
This same recording can sound flat, dull, and technically deficient on mainstream high-end speakers - and in a show environment, I had an exhibitor rudely cut off my selection and hand it back to me, and return to the usual audiophile demo stuff. The "Press" badge only goes so far if it doesn't say "$tereophile", "Absolute $ound", or "$ix Moons" on it.
Thanks to my exposure to the Colorado gang (big shout-out to Thom, John, Steve, and Orey here), I've lost patience with this sort of cranky hifi system. If it can't deliver musical satisfaction with recordings of great performances - forget about the recording quality! - the system just ain't hifi, no matter who designed it or how much it costs.
Listening to Alexander's tweeters sort of spoils you for the usual run-of-the-mill Vifa/Scan-Speak/Seas 1" dome tweeter, doesn't it? Just like DHT triodes, it's hard to go back.
There is a weird thing going on with a lot of high-end "standard-efficiency" speakers - they can be very picky about the recordings you play, particularly vintage late-Fifties recordings. A vintage recording - say, RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence - can sound absolutely glorious on a well-tuned horn system, thrilling, exciting, with lots of shimmer and sparkle, and most all, an almost tactile you-are-there presence. You can hear this before the music starts - the space is filled with a sense of presence, of expectation, of people moving around.
This same recording can sound flat, dull, and technically deficient on mainstream high-end speakers - and in a show environment, I had an exhibitor rudely cut off my selection and hand it back to me, and return to the usual audiophile demo stuff. The "Press" badge only goes so far if it doesn't say "$tereophile", "Absolute $ound", or "$ix Moons" on it.
Thanks to my exposure to the Colorado gang (big shout-out to Thom, John, Steve, and Orey here), I've lost patience with this sort of cranky hifi system. If it can't deliver musical satisfaction with recordings of great performances - forget about the recording quality! - the system just ain't hifi, no matter who designed it or how much it costs.
hello Lynn
could you specify a littlebit more, what you specially liked on the new T-1's ? I don't know if you heard the previous model with TAD drivers. Which main improvements did you observe with the new model ? what makes speakers, employing FC's , sounding so much better ?
I have read a lot of good things about FC drivers. Cogent's, Shindo Latour, some say these belong to the best speakers, they heard. At the first auction ( post Nr.8 ) i saw on ebay of a Altec 288 converted to field coil, the seller gave some interesting insights. Do you think the mentioned advantages are the main reason for the good performance?
Is Sam the seller of the converted Altec's on ebay ?
The field coil feeds its magnetic field by a direct current. As long as the current is constant the field coil must be constant. Thus the field coil can produce stable and uniform magnetic field. Nowadays, we have advantages compare to the old TUBE days to acquire a quality DC power supply that is regulated, stable DC voltage, no hum (no need to use the bucking coil) and affordable that can be used to supply direct current for the field coil. On the other hand, while the AlNiCo or any permanent magnet speaker during active mode (playing) can not be able to supply a stable or uniform magnetic field continuously due to the atoms or molecules randomly change their magnetic poles then trying to self-align again to gain the total strength. This is a reason why the vibration of a diaphragm is out of control and produces a tremendous amount of unexpected high pitch due to unstable Magnetic Field. You may confuse the high pitch and its loudness with the desired high frequency reproduction. This unexpected high pitch may upset your ear, like someone scratches his fingers on the black board. However, AlNiCo speakers maybe appropriate using at Techno Dancing floor where young people just care about loudness and extreme sound. The strength of magnetic field is not difficult to conquer by FIED COIL as long as we can deal with heat. The UNIFORM and STABLE Magnetic Field takes a very important role in the process of defined sound reproduction. I agreed the models AlNiCo Altec 288 (288, 288B, 288C, 288G, 288H, 288L, 288-8K, 288-16K) and also IPC, 291-16A, 299 and early 290 are sensitive, clear, presence, detail and “loud” (plus noise too!) similar to the famous JBL 375 AlNiCo that is a renovation of the famous WE 594A field coil. However, the 288 series and JBL 375 has a serious sound defect at the peak of the sound wave when diaphragm moving to the peak (the farthest distance from at rest). This high pitch noisy sound makes many listeners are confused between the “LOUD” high frequency noise and the desired music of “WARM” high frequency reproduction. In the other words, AlNiCo driver produces distortion that you can realize when the diaphragm moves to the peak. The sound is “cracked” like “a tip hair has split end.” The cracked sound may reduce 30% to 50% when couple with horn especially to the ALTEC 311-90 horn because of the air pressure changing smoother than without horn. Incredibly, The Field Coil Magnet amazingly solves this problem even without using any horn.
If the subject is going to drift at this point onto field coil power supplies, I would be interested to hear people's thinking as to whether constant current is most important or constant voltage. This is a subject about which I am very ignorant, but I do know from my experience with Feastrex field coils that the power supply definitely has a big influence on the sound.
-- Chris
-- Chris
Lynn Olson said:
Yep, those were the ones. Nice speakers and they didn't try to be what they are not. Very enjoyable. If I didn't build my own stuff, they'd be high on my list.
There is an amazing amount of information that gets onto just about any recording, LP, CD, cassette even. A great speaker will let you hear it - and feel like you are there. For me it's a real adventure with each recording. Too many Hi-Fi rigs just "sound good."
FWIW, I posted my impressions of the OB rigs I heard over on AudioCircle.
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60599.0
I think OB speaker like conventional baffle needs good electronics to work... You can ruin the performance of your loudspeaker if you didn't take care to the environment (source, amplifier).
It could explain some disappointment about Orion speaker, the system is quite complex, if you put a poor performance amplifier for the midrange, the sound could be very annoying.
It could explain some disappointment about Orion speaker, the system is quite complex, if you put a poor performance amplifier for the midrange, the sound could be very annoying.
jerome69 said:It could explain some disappointment about Orion speaker, the system is quite complex, if you put a poor performance amplifier for the midrange, the sound could be very annoying.
Interesting theory, although mine is that some audiopiles wouldn't know good sound if it bit them on their a$$.
Maybe these same folks would have been more impressed if the ATI amp was located in the closet or the speaker cables were known to cost $4k/meter.
Hi mac,
I think audiophiles definitely know what sounds good to them. Have you noticed how they can wax lyrical about it til the cows come home? Reviews that go on for pages and pages. All kinds of flowery verbiage.
What I suspect they don't know is what real unamplified music sounds like.
When one writes a concert review the same vein as one would write a loudspeaker review, then we'll see...
I think audiophiles definitely know what sounds good to them. Have you noticed how they can wax lyrical about it til the cows come home? Reviews that go on for pages and pages. All kinds of flowery verbiage.
What I suspect they don't know is what real unamplified music sounds like.
When one writes a concert review the same vein as one would write a loudspeaker review, then we'll see...
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