My 1 liter of Nye 181B synthetic oil arrived the other day. I need to lay in some Dremel attachments for buffing motor mating surfaces and then once I can break free some time, the motor rebuild will commence.
For anyone interested in the 181b, it shows no tint that I can discern, even looking through a liter bottle (standard white semi-opaque plastic). A simple test conducted by dipping a small philips head screwdriver shaft into it (thinner than the e-50 shaft by far) shows at room temp the film is thinner than either 3-in-one electric motor oil or Amsoil synthetic compressor oil, which are both rated SAE 20 wt. It does, however, seem to have as good cling as either one and presented an unbroken film. Hardly a scientific test, particularly since operating temp is more important. I do have a good feeling about the oil, can envision it working nicely in a sintered bronze application, but proof is in the pudding. My guess is either it'll turn out to be an excellent match or the motor will run too fast and I won't know until I try it.
For anyone interested in the 181b, it shows no tint that I can discern, even looking through a liter bottle (standard white semi-opaque plastic). A simple test conducted by dipping a small philips head screwdriver shaft into it (thinner than the e-50 shaft by far) shows at room temp the film is thinner than either 3-in-one electric motor oil or Amsoil synthetic compressor oil, which are both rated SAE 20 wt. It does, however, seem to have as good cling as either one and presented an unbroken film. Hardly a scientific test, particularly since operating temp is more important. I do have a good feeling about the oil, can envision it working nicely in a sintered bronze application, but proof is in the pudding. My guess is either it'll turn out to be an excellent match or the motor will run too fast and I won't know until I try it.
Kevinkr - well this is DIY so I guess it's time for me to do the "Y" part. Even if the 181b turns out not to be quite right, seeing how it performs might be enough to pinpoint a better option in the Nye line and it is a pretty extensive line. Now at some $90 a liter (gee at least that includes S&H) I'd be a lot happier if I nailed it first time around. The money could certainly be used elsewhere on this project, I'm sure.
Hello,
Please report back how the oil compares with other oils. You can always get some 10oz bottles and sell them for $5-$10 and recoup some or all of your investment. Let us know what you think.
Regards,
David
Please report back how the oil compares with other oils. You can always get some 10oz bottles and sell them for $5-$10 and recoup some or all of your investment. Let us know what you think.
Regards,
David
I will let everyone know what my results are. However, even if this oil works well for me, I can't in good conscience compare it to any of other oils currently being used because frankly, I don't have any real experience with them. I simply wasn't comfortable with any of the alternatives available to me (Texaco R&O isn't one I have access to) so I set out to find something I felt had specifications similar to what I understood Thorens had used originally - and that was clearly intended to be used in sintered bronze, in precision machinery, etc. This is what I hit upon. Time will tell whether all the effort I put into tracking it down was worth it.
I have just a couple of days ago mounted the motor of my TD124 in springs from Hanze HiFi in the Netherlands. They present the springs here: Hanze Hifi - Spring time for TD124!!!, and the science bits here:
http://www.hanzehifi.nl/merken-bezigheden/thorens-garrard/thorens/td124
I am totally bowled over by the reduction of motor noise: the reduction compared to my (new) Schopper rubber mounts is immediately noticeable. The best €40 I have spent on the table so far.
DISCLAIMER: i honestly have no connection to the shop! But I am impressed with the springs.
http://www.hanzehifi.nl/merken-bezigheden/thorens-garrard/thorens/td124
I am totally bowled over by the reduction of motor noise: the reduction compared to my (new) Schopper rubber mounts is immediately noticeable. The best €40 I have spent on the table so far.
DISCLAIMER: i honestly have no connection to the shop! But I am impressed with the springs.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This certainly is an interesting idea.
The testing at hanze Hifi seems to focus on how much motor noise gets transmitted into the td124 chassis. And compared to different currently popular grommet installations the spring mounting transmits less.
Further, it is the property of springs to not only isolate from vibrations, but to dissipate vibrations. Perhaps someone can articulate this fully. My limited understanding is that vibrations, when introduced into a working spring, tend to be converted into heat.
However there are concerns regarding motor mounting on the td124, other than motor vibe isolation. I would also focus attention on how much motor torque energy is lost with the different mounting methods. Will the spring allow the motor to twist horizontally in this mounting more-so than with a polymer grommet mounting? We should be able to hear this difference, if there is one, by the manifestation of a jump factor, or the lack thereof. Put another way, will the td124 be any less forward sounding with one mounting method compared to another. If less forward it means that motor is twisting more.
-Steve
Steve,
from principle a spring does not convert any energy into heat. A spring stores energy,
emitting it with some delay. Spring steel does not show any hyteresis worth speaking
of. Rubber does, leather does, most foams do.
That's why in a car's suspension, you have both springs and dampers. The dampers to
decelerate/slow down the forces and convert them into heat.
On a turntable the amount of energy generated is far less compared to a car. So there
is significiently less demand on the damping/energy conversion. Many TT's suspended
subchassis come with springs only and (almost) no damping. Linn LP12 springs lack of
any serious damping (just the tiny friction between the spring and rubber grommet/spring
seat). The Thorens TD14X/16X I owned had some foam damping inside the springs.
Another point is resonance frequency. With higher weight mass + softer spring resonance
frequency is decreased. The target is to tune this Fres so that is in a less critical area.
Increasing weight has some limtations when it comes to commercial products. Reducing
spring rates (= softer) or replacing rubber with real springs has a similar effect.
Some basics:
audible range: down to 20 Hz
desirable tonearm/cartridge resonance: 8 - 12 Hz
desirable turntable chassis resonance: 2 - 5 Hz
You see, each is halved.
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I won't challenge the point about energy storage within springs. However I do think that the reference to springs used in Tt suspensions such as Lynn, Thorens et.al. is not really relevant in this application in that forces applied do not occur in the vertical like a Tt suspension. Rather force applied is in the horizontal.
Motor vibes seem to happen at a frequency of ~100 hz. And should not trigger any motion. Motor torque will, however trigger motion and on a plane that the springs are not designed to react to.
-Steve
Motor vibes seem to happen at a frequency of ~100 hz. And should not trigger any motion. Motor torque will, however trigger motion and on a plane that the springs are not designed to react to.
-Steve
Looking at the conical profile is similar to my SOTA star suspension springs.
You have a progressive rate spring instead of a straight wound configuration.
This means the progressive winding functions in a small area only and being conical you might say it helps to fight off vibrations within itself somewhat.
The profile also helps to keep the shaft centered compared to a straight wound spring that would tend to flex side to side more easily.
That makes it better for this application if motor twisting is concerned
Me thinks you would benefit even more by placing some sorbothane pads between washers and spring along with either cotton balls or the recommended foam inside the springs.
Regards
David
You have a progressive rate spring instead of a straight wound configuration.
This means the progressive winding functions in a small area only and being conical you might say it helps to fight off vibrations within itself somewhat.
The profile also helps to keep the shaft centered compared to a straight wound spring that would tend to flex side to side more easily.
That makes it better for this application if motor twisting is concerned
Me thinks you would benefit even more by placing some sorbothane pads between washers and spring along with either cotton balls or the recommended foam inside the springs.
Regards
David
I'm starting to restore another TD-124
Kevin ,and the regulars;
After several years of enjoying, (trouble-free, I might add) my venerable TD-124, my brother sent me his to restore.
He got it recently, upon the death of a family member of his long-time girlfriend.
It is older than mine,
Serial numbers:
Mine: 49002
His: 2972
Kevin, it has the earlier intermediate bearing style that I remember you talking about, (I forget which one was considered to be better.)
AND
It has the infamous plastic main bearings.
Ok, I need to replace those, I know they are available on ebay.
Question is, do I measure the OD of the main shaft, and try to convince the seller to measure the ID of the replacement bearing to get as close as match as possible? and if so, how close? (I have a micrometer.)
Also, since I am going to have to take the thrust plate off of the main bearing housing to press out the plastic bearings, is there a good replacement gasket/thrustpad available? (oh, and there is nothing holding the thrust bearing in place, except for a spot of grease, is there anything available?)
I am also out of the loop in regards to replacement belts. Is the cheapo from Florida still a good one? Or, I suspect, the Thakker or Schopper belt is superior? (but much more expensive.)
Any specific posts out of this very long TD-124 thread, (now) that might address concerns would be helpful.
Regards,
Gene
Kevin ,and the regulars;
After several years of enjoying, (trouble-free, I might add) my venerable TD-124, my brother sent me his to restore.
He got it recently, upon the death of a family member of his long-time girlfriend.
It is older than mine,
Serial numbers:
Mine: 49002
His: 2972
Kevin, it has the earlier intermediate bearing style that I remember you talking about, (I forget which one was considered to be better.)
AND
It has the infamous plastic main bearings.
Ok, I need to replace those, I know they are available on ebay.
Question is, do I measure the OD of the main shaft, and try to convince the seller to measure the ID of the replacement bearing to get as close as match as possible? and if so, how close? (I have a micrometer.)
Also, since I am going to have to take the thrust plate off of the main bearing housing to press out the plastic bearings, is there a good replacement gasket/thrustpad available? (oh, and there is nothing holding the thrust bearing in place, except for a spot of grease, is there anything available?)
I am also out of the loop in regards to replacement belts. Is the cheapo from Florida still a good one? Or, I suspect, the Thakker or Schopper belt is superior? (but much more expensive.)
Any specific posts out of this very long TD-124 thread, (now) that might address concerns would be helpful.
Regards,
Gene
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As far as I know the replacement bearings on eBay are all the same size, and have no problem with ID, it is the OD that is a bit of an issue as the bearings slip too easily in the housing. You might be better off getting some genuine Oilite bushings from the U.K - there are a number of authorized vendors online with extensive selections. Just measure the bore and spindle carefully - I am led to believe this is a standard bushing.
Motor bearings should probably be replaced, I have two TD-124s, and the older one is running with the original bearings, and the speed is quite erratic until it is fully warmed up, my newer table also has new motor bearings and runs a bit slow when cold, gets up to speed and never needs to be adjusted - the older table needs frequent adjustments during the first hour or so. I used the jec965 motor bearing kit, and other than not sufficiently impregnating the bushings initially I have not had a single problem with the motor.
There are a number of good end cap upgrades on eBay.. Just stay away from ones that do not provide thrust plates as part of the kit.
I am using a Florida belt on the TD-124/I and a Schopper on the TD-124/II.. The Thakker belt I purchased ran quietly until the goo built up on the pulleys to some extent - constant cleaning was required. They offer more than one type now, I do not know how either of the current offerings perform. The Schopper does not make goo, and needs very infrequent attention, it also runs quiet once it has run for a while - when new it is about as noisy as the FLA belts. The FLA belts are quite inexpensive and only produce a small amount of residue that has to be cleaned off of the pulleys, but they are not that quiet and the table tends to run a bit fast as compared to the Schopper. The Schopper is the best bet, but is exorbitantly priced compared to the competition. Something to bear in mind is that I have not purchased parts for any TD-124 projects in over a year due to illness, and am currently not servicing tables - so my anecdotes are a bit stale at best.
One thing I would suggest in lieu of better information would be to stick with the 3-in-1 20 SAE electric motor oil for lubrication - it has never caused a problem in any table I have used it, and they can ultimately be adjusted to run stably on speed which I found was not always the case with lighter, more modern lubricants. One of the members here is experimenting with a promising synthetic but I've not heard back as to how that worked out.
The table in question is very early, well prior to 1960..(Maybe sometime in 1958) I am not a fan of the older intermediate bearing set up due to wear problems and the difficulty in dealing with that. The later dual bushing in the chassis is superior from a wear standpoint.. I think the bushing in the earlier design damps the pulley better though..
Motor bearings should probably be replaced, I have two TD-124s, and the older one is running with the original bearings, and the speed is quite erratic until it is fully warmed up, my newer table also has new motor bearings and runs a bit slow when cold, gets up to speed and never needs to be adjusted - the older table needs frequent adjustments during the first hour or so. I used the jec965 motor bearing kit, and other than not sufficiently impregnating the bushings initially I have not had a single problem with the motor.
There are a number of good end cap upgrades on eBay.. Just stay away from ones that do not provide thrust plates as part of the kit.
I am using a Florida belt on the TD-124/I and a Schopper on the TD-124/II.. The Thakker belt I purchased ran quietly until the goo built up on the pulleys to some extent - constant cleaning was required. They offer more than one type now, I do not know how either of the current offerings perform. The Schopper does not make goo, and needs very infrequent attention, it also runs quiet once it has run for a while - when new it is about as noisy as the FLA belts. The FLA belts are quite inexpensive and only produce a small amount of residue that has to be cleaned off of the pulleys, but they are not that quiet and the table tends to run a bit fast as compared to the Schopper. The Schopper is the best bet, but is exorbitantly priced compared to the competition. Something to bear in mind is that I have not purchased parts for any TD-124 projects in over a year due to illness, and am currently not servicing tables - so my anecdotes are a bit stale at best.
One thing I would suggest in lieu of better information would be to stick with the 3-in-1 20 SAE electric motor oil for lubrication - it has never caused a problem in any table I have used it, and they can ultimately be adjusted to run stably on speed which I found was not always the case with lighter, more modern lubricants. One of the members here is experimenting with a promising synthetic but I've not heard back as to how that worked out.
The table in question is very early, well prior to 1960..(Maybe sometime in 1958) I am not a fan of the older intermediate bearing set up due to wear problems and the difficulty in dealing with that. The later dual bushing in the chassis is superior from a wear standpoint.. I think the bushing in the earlier design damps the pulley better though..
That's a good question, hope they fit. I want to install them on the II so hopefully they will fit, if they don't they will work on my other table.. (Mine appear to be the correct dimensions for a 124/II) I would note that they are extremely resistant to motion in all planes - I can't imagine this motor can generate enough torque to cause any deflection at all - they are heavy and stiff.
My suspicion is that you have to upgrade to the later motor mounting configuration to use the springs, but I am not 100% sure about that. I bought them months ago and have forgotten most of the conversation I had with Jaap about them, he is very helpful so I'd send him an email.
My suspicion is that you have to upgrade to the later motor mounting configuration to use the springs, but I am not 100% sure about that. I bought them months ago and have forgotten most of the conversation I had with Jaap about them, he is very helpful so I'd send him an email.
[Without reading through the thread to see if this link has been posted]
Found this link by accident:
https://www.stereo-lab.de/phonozubehoer/zubehoer-fuer-thorens-td124/index.html
Found this link by accident:
https://www.stereo-lab.de/phonozubehoer/zubehoer-fuer-thorens-td124/index.html