https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=99999#p852145
First of all let me say I love this table!
The problems I have had with this table started the day after I brought it home from the sellers shop.
The seller is Paragon Video and Stereo in Madison, WI. Steve at Paragon has been nothing but wonderful in his support and has worked diligently to resolve the problem(s).
I will first state the current situation & what I suspect may be causing it in this post and follow up with a second post with all the things we have tried.
I took the table back to Paragon last week and Steve worked on it over the weekend. He lubricated the motor, the idler wheel shaft, the cone pulley shaft, and all the pivot points that control the idler wheel.
In the store it worked fine so I brought it home. When I got it home I hooked it up and played a few LPs. It worked OK, but just a little fast. I turned the speed adjustment full CCW and ran out of adjustment. Still just a bit fast, not a real big deal.
The next day I turned on my system and started the TD-124. Very slow it just crawled along and showed no signs of ever speeding up. I spun the speed adjustment knob CW and the table shot up to speed. I then turned the speed adjustment CCW to adjust it to the correct speed. It at first was in the range of adjustment, but by the second side of the LP, it was running just a bit fast with the speed adjustment knob full CCW.
Today I started up the system and got exactly the same result.
Here are my suspicions:
First, I think the motor is running too fast.
Second, I keep my house much cooler than Paragon. I think the oil used to lubricate the table becomes very viscous at tempretures below 60F.
The speed of the motor is controlled by eddy current drag on the cone pulley using a magnet on the outside of the pulley and an adjustable vane inside the pulley.
With the speed set in the middle of the range the table runs like a race horse. Barry White sounds like one of the chipmunks.
To slow it down you have to turn the vane as far as it will go to get strong enough eddy current effect to slow it down.
This is not great, but workable as long as the lubricant is warm. Over night the lubricant cools down and is so viscous the motor cannot overcome the eddy current and shaft drag. Remove the eddy current and the system takes off. The lubricant becomes non viscous. Then the eddy current is re-applied and the table runs OK, just a bit fast.
What are your thoughts?
At first both Steve and I thought the motor was a synchronous motor. However, on further thought I don't think it is a synchronous motor. Synchronous motors are locked into the frequency of the mains power (60Hz-US, 50Hz-Europe). The eddy current approach would not be an effective means to adjust the speed.
Question:
What kind of motor is used in the TD-124 MK-I? Is it a universal or induction motor? Both these could be subject to higher modern mains voltage. When this table was manufactured the mains voltage was between 115VAC thru 118VAC. My mains voltage is up around 128VAC. Could this be the reason the motor is running fast? If so, how can I resolve this?
First of all let me say I love this table!
The problems I have had with this table started the day after I brought it home from the sellers shop.
The seller is Paragon Video and Stereo in Madison, WI. Steve at Paragon has been nothing but wonderful in his support and has worked diligently to resolve the problem(s).
I will first state the current situation & what I suspect may be causing it in this post and follow up with a second post with all the things we have tried.
I took the table back to Paragon last week and Steve worked on it over the weekend. He lubricated the motor, the idler wheel shaft, the cone pulley shaft, and all the pivot points that control the idler wheel.
In the store it worked fine so I brought it home. When I got it home I hooked it up and played a few LPs. It worked OK, but just a little fast. I turned the speed adjustment full CCW and ran out of adjustment. Still just a bit fast, not a real big deal.
The next day I turned on my system and started the TD-124. Very slow it just crawled along and showed no signs of ever speeding up. I spun the speed adjustment knob CW and the table shot up to speed. I then turned the speed adjustment CCW to adjust it to the correct speed. It at first was in the range of adjustment, but by the second side of the LP, it was running just a bit fast with the speed adjustment knob full CCW.
Today I started up the system and got exactly the same result.
Here are my suspicions:
First, I think the motor is running too fast.
Second, I keep my house much cooler than Paragon. I think the oil used to lubricate the table becomes very viscous at tempretures below 60F.
The speed of the motor is controlled by eddy current drag on the cone pulley using a magnet on the outside of the pulley and an adjustable vane inside the pulley.
With the speed set in the middle of the range the table runs like a race horse. Barry White sounds like one of the chipmunks.
To slow it down you have to turn the vane as far as it will go to get strong enough eddy current effect to slow it down.
This is not great, but workable as long as the lubricant is warm. Over night the lubricant cools down and is so viscous the motor cannot overcome the eddy current and shaft drag. Remove the eddy current and the system takes off. The lubricant becomes non viscous. Then the eddy current is re-applied and the table runs OK, just a bit fast.
What are your thoughts?
At first both Steve and I thought the motor was a synchronous motor. However, on further thought I don't think it is a synchronous motor. Synchronous motors are locked into the frequency of the mains power (60Hz-US, 50Hz-Europe). The eddy current approach would not be an effective means to adjust the speed.
Question:
What kind of motor is used in the TD-124 MK-I? Is it a universal or induction motor? Both these could be subject to higher modern mains voltage. When this table was manufactured the mains voltage was between 115VAC thru 118VAC. My mains voltage is up around 128VAC. Could this be the reason the motor is running fast? If so, how can I resolve this?
at zero load, just friction in the motor, the rotor will turn a tiny fraction slower than the mains. I don't have any numbers for this but I'll take a guess and suggest a lot less than 1% below and maybe getting close to 0.1% below mains frequency.
As the load increases the slip increases and keeps increasing until it eventually stalls.
Just before stall it could be around 30% below mains frequency.
It's this massive increase in slip as load increases that makes induction motors unsuitable for precise speed.
It is this characteristic that afflicts the Thorens and similar. Changes in friction result in changes in speed.
One needs to set up the speed with a fixed level of friction and hope that covers for all reasonable TT duty.
As the load increases the slip increases and keeps increasing until it eventually stalls.
Just before stall it could be around 30% below mains frequency.
It's this massive increase in slip as load increases that makes induction motors unsuitable for precise speed.
It is this characteristic that afflicts the Thorens and similar. Changes in friction result in changes in speed.
One needs to set up the speed with a fixed level of friction and hope that covers for all reasonable TT duty.
OK,
Here is the summery of what we have tried:
As stated in the previous post I said when I first brought it home it worked OK the first day. The next day it ran way fast.
Steve thought it may be a warn out belt. I don't understand why this should affect speed, but I found a Thorens dealer and bought a new belt. The new belt was smaller than the one that was on the table when I bought it.
I put the new belt on the table and it had no effect.
Next Steve and I thought I may have a weak eddy current magnet. Steve has two other similar tables. One is a TD-124 MK-II. The other is a TD-224 automatic record changer model. The TD-224 is just a modified TD-124.
We removed the magnets from the two other tables and determined how strong they were relative to each other. We did this by sticking two magnets on each side of a steel tube (a can of de-oxit) and pulled. The can will stick to the stronger magnet.
It turned out my magnet was in-between. Steve's TD-124 MK-II was the weakest. The TD-224 had the strongest. I took the strongest one home and installed it in my table. After adjusting the magnet position relative to the cone pulley using a receipt from Home Depot as a shim I was able to get the speed to adjust well with the range of the speed adjustment knob.
This worked well for quite a while.
Now the weather is cooler I have been having problems with the table starting up.
The first thing we thought was that the idler wheel was slipping. I took a Q-tip and spread a little belt dressing on the idler. This gives the rubber a slight tacky feel that grips the mating parts. This did not help at all. Steve thought I may have compromised the rubber on the idler wheel so I ordered a rebuilt idler wheel from V-M Enthusiasts. When the new idler came I installed it and it still didn't work.
Steve came over to my place and discovered the rebuilt idler was not identicle to the original. It sit's a bit higher than the original. This caused it to run on the edge of the track on the cone pulley. One we resolved this problem we tried it out and it worked fine.
The next day it started slow again.
I took the table back to Paragon and Steve preformed the service mentioned in the initial post.
One more thing I should mention. When I brought it home I could hear the eddy current magnet rubbing on the cone pulley. I re-adjusted it a bit farther out. That may be why the speed is just out of the range of adjustment.
So thats it. Please let me know if you have any ideas.
Here is the summery of what we have tried:
As stated in the previous post I said when I first brought it home it worked OK the first day. The next day it ran way fast.
Steve thought it may be a warn out belt. I don't understand why this should affect speed, but I found a Thorens dealer and bought a new belt. The new belt was smaller than the one that was on the table when I bought it.
I put the new belt on the table and it had no effect.
Next Steve and I thought I may have a weak eddy current magnet. Steve has two other similar tables. One is a TD-124 MK-II. The other is a TD-224 automatic record changer model. The TD-224 is just a modified TD-124.
We removed the magnets from the two other tables and determined how strong they were relative to each other. We did this by sticking two magnets on each side of a steel tube (a can of de-oxit) and pulled. The can will stick to the stronger magnet.
It turned out my magnet was in-between. Steve's TD-124 MK-II was the weakest. The TD-224 had the strongest. I took the strongest one home and installed it in my table. After adjusting the magnet position relative to the cone pulley using a receipt from Home Depot as a shim I was able to get the speed to adjust well with the range of the speed adjustment knob.
This worked well for quite a while.
Now the weather is cooler I have been having problems with the table starting up.
The first thing we thought was that the idler wheel was slipping. I took a Q-tip and spread a little belt dressing on the idler. This gives the rubber a slight tacky feel that grips the mating parts. This did not help at all. Steve thought I may have compromised the rubber on the idler wheel so I ordered a rebuilt idler wheel from V-M Enthusiasts. When the new idler came I installed it and it still didn't work.
Steve came over to my place and discovered the rebuilt idler was not identicle to the original. It sit's a bit higher than the original. This caused it to run on the edge of the track on the cone pulley. One we resolved this problem we tried it out and it worked fine.
The next day it started slow again.
I took the table back to Paragon and Steve preformed the service mentioned in the initial post.
One more thing I should mention. When I brought it home I could hear the eddy current magnet rubbing on the cone pulley. I re-adjusted it a bit farther out. That may be why the speed is just out of the range of adjustment.
So thats it. Please let me know if you have any ideas.
I know the distance of the magnet does affect the strength of the eddy current. I had it set very close and got good results from the speed adjustment. I backed it off a bit because the last time I brought it home from the shop it was rubbing a bit on the stepped pulley.
Also, I checked my ling voltage and it now is pretty stable at 120VAC. That is about the same as the shops voltage so voltage isn't the problem.
Like I said before, once I decrease the eddy damping the table takes off but when turned on at the last damped setting it will not run up to speed. Once the eddy damping is released off it goes then I have to damp it down again. For the first half hour I can adjust it to correct speed. As the table warms up it runs faster until it's just out of the eddy damping adjustment range.
The only other major difference between my home and the shop is the shop is maintained at 65 degrees or more. My house temperature drops to 50 F at night and may get as high as 60 F in the daytime.
I suspect the slow startup may be a result of the low temp viscosity of the l=oil used. Are there acceptable lubricants that will remain non viscous at lower temperatures?
Also, I checked my ling voltage and it now is pretty stable at 120VAC. That is about the same as the shops voltage so voltage isn't the problem.
Like I said before, once I decrease the eddy damping the table takes off but when turned on at the last damped setting it will not run up to speed. Once the eddy damping is released off it goes then I have to damp it down again. For the first half hour I can adjust it to correct speed. As the table warms up it runs faster until it's just out of the eddy damping adjustment range.
The only other major difference between my home and the shop is the shop is maintained at 65 degrees or more. My house temperature drops to 50 F at night and may get as high as 60 F in the daytime.
I suspect the slow startup may be a result of the low temp viscosity of the l=oil used. Are there acceptable lubricants that will remain non viscous at lower temperatures?
First question is do you have a TD-124 or a TD-124MKII, if the former rather than the latter is the serial # below 20,000? If so does it have a nylon sleeved main bearing rather than the later/retrofitted oilite bushed main bearing?
If you have a nylon bushed main bearing it is never going to run correctly as the nylon swells, scoring the spindle and will eventually seize up.
Second you refer to lubrication, if at minimum the motor has not been rebuilt you will never get satisfactory service out of your turntable. Depending on the level of wear it is usual to replace the motor bushings. The only current source of good oilite bushings is Audio Silente in Italy, you can find him on eBay and Facebook.
A properly running E50 unloaded should run at very close to 1740rpm when fully warmed up. (This is about 3.3% below fully synchronous speed) An early table will be on speed within a minute or so, the MKII may take a bit longer (to a lot longer).
Running properly and if set to speed when fully warmed up, the speed should need adjustment on a very infrequent basis based on experience. (I adjust mine an arrange of once or twice a year or on speed change if necessary - which usually isn't)
Lubricants are important, stick the recommendations in the thread if you want the table to run on speed consistently. The 3 in One oil referenced is appropriate for motor and main bearing, a slightly heavier oil for the idler and intermediate pulley. There is a lot of controversy around lubricants.
Someone needs to make magnets or figure out how to remag them, I have run across one or two that were completely de-magnetized to ones that were probably close to as strong as they ever were.
Note: I run mine on 110V - 117V and find operation on 120V+ makes it hard to keep the speed in the right range.
If you have a nylon bushed main bearing it is never going to run correctly as the nylon swells, scoring the spindle and will eventually seize up.
Second you refer to lubrication, if at minimum the motor has not been rebuilt you will never get satisfactory service out of your turntable. Depending on the level of wear it is usual to replace the motor bushings. The only current source of good oilite bushings is Audio Silente in Italy, you can find him on eBay and Facebook.
A properly running E50 unloaded should run at very close to 1740rpm when fully warmed up. (This is about 3.3% below fully synchronous speed) An early table will be on speed within a minute or so, the MKII may take a bit longer (to a lot longer).
Running properly and if set to speed when fully warmed up, the speed should need adjustment on a very infrequent basis based on experience. (I adjust mine an arrange of once or twice a year or on speed change if necessary - which usually isn't)
Lubricants are important, stick the recommendations in the thread if you want the table to run on speed consistently. The 3 in One oil referenced is appropriate for motor and main bearing, a slightly heavier oil for the idler and intermediate pulley. There is a lot of controversy around lubricants.
Someone needs to make magnets or figure out how to remag them, I have run across one or two that were completely de-magnetized to ones that were probably close to as strong as they ever were.
Note: I run mine on 110V - 117V and find operation on 120V+ makes it hard to keep the speed in the right range.
My mains voltage is up around 128VAC. Could this be the reason the motor is running fast? If so, how can I resolve this?
I suspect your mainvoltage is to high since the speed from the E50 motor depents from the mains voltage try to bring it back to 110-115 volt for example.
if you know how to wire up an autotransformer, you can adjust your mains voltage down, or with a different wiring, upto your desired user voltage.
The autotransformer does not need to be very big, in fact for small adjustments the transformer can be tiny.
eg, a 230:dual 6Vac can adjust down by 6Vac, or down by 12Vac.
This one dual secondary transformer allows 5 settings:
218Vac (95%), 224Vac (97.5%), 230Vac (100%), 236Vac (102.5%) and 242Vac (105%) from a nominal 230Vac supply.
If it has a dual 115Vac primary, then the 115Vac can be adjusted similarly.
The current rating of the secondary determines the maximum rating supplied to the load.
If this interests you I can provide more detail to allow you to wire this up.
The autotransformer does not need to be very big, in fact for small adjustments the transformer can be tiny.
eg, a 230:dual 6Vac can adjust down by 6Vac, or down by 12Vac.
This one dual secondary transformer allows 5 settings:
218Vac (95%), 224Vac (97.5%), 230Vac (100%), 236Vac (102.5%) and 242Vac (105%) from a nominal 230Vac supply.
If it has a dual 115Vac primary, then the 115Vac can be adjusted similarly.
The current rating of the secondary determines the maximum rating supplied to the load.
If this interests you I can provide more detail to allow you to wire this up.
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I found a Sola transformer in my basement that will take a 95VAC to 150VAC input and provide a stable 118VAC output. I checked it out and indeed it does produce a stable 118VAC output. So I connected my TD-124 up to it and I have no idea ho fast the table now runs because the strobe light does not light up at 118VAC. Very strange.
You can't use the Sola with the table, the output is not sinusoidal (clipped sine) which is why the neon lamp is not lighting. The waveform peak is not high enough to ionize the gas in the lamp initially.
You may also overheat the motor since the output is a distorted sine wave.
A simple buck arrangement with a 6.3V transformer is all you need.
You may also overheat the motor since the output is a distorted sine wave.
A simple buck arrangement with a 6.3V transformer is all you need.
OK, thanks for the info!
I spoke with Steve at Paragon and he has a couple transformer in his warehouse with taps that will do the job. I'm kind of leaning toward something large enough to run my McIntosh MC-60 amps on as well as the TD-124. I have watched the B+ on the finals peak at around 600VDC before the filaments heat up. It's kind of spooky knowing that is happening and it can't be good for the 6550 finals. I've been considering putting a TDR in the B+ circuit to delay switching it on until the filaments warm up. I'll let you know what I come up with for a transformer.
I spoke with Steve at Paragon and he has a couple transformer in his warehouse with taps that will do the job. I'm kind of leaning toward something large enough to run my McIntosh MC-60 amps on as well as the TD-124. I have watched the B+ on the finals peak at around 600VDC before the filaments heat up. It's kind of spooky knowing that is happening and it can't be good for the 6550 finals. I've been considering putting a TDR in the B+ circuit to delay switching it on until the filaments warm up. I'll let you know what I come up with for a transformer.
I am glad you should be able to sort it out.
Make sure if you are running amps and other gear off of this transformer that it is rated at >1kVA. My GM70 amps require about 300VA each and were not at all happy on my 1kVA isolation transformer - no problem straight into the wall. B+ varies about 30V from cold to operating at 1kV that's not too noticeable a change.
Make sure if you are running amps and other gear off of this transformer that it is rated at >1kVA. My GM70 amps require about 300VA each and were not at all happy on my 1kVA isolation transformer - no problem straight into the wall. B+ varies about 30V from cold to operating at 1kV that's not too noticeable a change.
The Sola type also reduces mains waveform distortion. Typical is down to 3% with reduced higher harmonics. The design is called a CTV. Oneac seem the best at about 1% typical. Some tell me >10% is not unusual when the house supply. The thing you might easilly notice is to listen to the motor. It should sound quieter. The Thorens is not as fussy as the Garard 301/401 on this as the TD124 belt decouples some of it. All the same the Sola is a nice thing to have ( I often see them on eBay ). I tried to make one once. It got very hot as did the capactiors I tried, it did work on measurements. It was a pair of back to back low voltage types with one coil shunted by the capacitor that was not connected to the second transformer. I didn't take notes as it wouldn't have lasted long. Respect to Sola on that. I have tried the Oneac and must say they worked very well. They were often used to protect computers in big department stores circa 2000. The guy who did that introduced me to them. The railways always liked them. They have many problems which neither a class A amplifer nor a turntable will find. Best kept outside the room as they can buzz and throw out a larger magnetic field than usual types. Oneac were not bad on that. That type looked like it had been DIY upgraded inside. Having been to the Abingdon factory I can say that look was from new. The ladies had no idea how they worked, they just knew their task. As a US company I am sure the USA ones would be no different, the ones shown on the Internet looked the same.
My guess is this turntable started life as a 220V type and the lamp series resistor is wrong. Only a guess on that one.
There is a problem with Garrard and Thorens that Lenco solved. AR solved it in their own way which is now universal and I think really for cheap designs of which AR is still the best of type. Clones costing $10 000 leave me cold. The thing AR solved is it could be built by a low skills workforce very quickly and always work ( 15 minutes perhaps ). The TD124 is more like a clock. Small differences put right with a few pre tested parts. The magnet being prime. Nothing thrown away, put aside for pair matching. If a magnet ages or a turntable is made up of a few dead ones often it looses it's factory spec. The motor bottom bearing can cause trouble. There is a hole for oil. If green sludge comes out that is your problem. Don't give up as it can be the cure to do that. If you open the motor be gentle as getting the parts to fall back in place can be difficult, finger tight can be best. The Lenco has a vary pulley and movable stops. That's genius.
I was given a pile if Garrard 301 and 401 parts which had been discarded by a famous company in Bristol. All that was wrong with them was paintwork or rust. Many were rescued. The scrap pile was a result of making up perfect turntables from a few. It broke my heart to see that. I doubt if any ran correctly as a company that can't do paint or plating I doubt could test a turntable correctly. My friend who worked throught those parts uses a contact microphone on the motors to get a real idea of the health.
There's no such thing as a 220V TD-124 Nigel, they are all the same regardless of where they are to be used. There is a three range voltage setting switch and the neon always runs on the same range of voltages regardless of where it is used. (The 121 used a 117V only E50 and no strobe but it's rare.)
I have several of these sola transformers, have you actually looked at one on a scope? They are ferroresonant and squash the sinusoid a bit in normal operation, the rms value is still around the expected value, the peak is significantly lower.
I have several of these sola transformers, have you actually looked at one on a scope? They are ferroresonant and squash the sinusoid a bit in normal operation, the rms value is still around the expected value, the peak is significantly lower.
The Solar is not typical of type if so. Big distribution transformers do as you say. Alas they didn't make UK versions. Oneac make a point of saying as you do.
http://www.gryphon-inc.com/Spec Sheets/917134- CX NEMA.PDF
I don't know about the TD124, a Garrard has a different resistor for the lamp on 115V. As The TD124 has taps it might use the same resistor for all. It's worth a check as it would be a good reason not to work. The typical neon device ( or whatever gas ) has a strike voltage of about 90V and will them work down to about 60V. 115V is only slightly more. A resistor is required to limit current. As you say any TD124 can be configued for 115V, nopt so a Garrard, at least a pulley change.
The idea a machine could have come over from Europe still holds.
http://www.gryphon-inc.com/Spec Sheets/917134- CX NEMA.PDF
I don't know about the TD124, a Garrard has a different resistor for the lamp on 115V. As The TD124 has taps it might use the same resistor for all. It's worth a check as it would be a good reason not to work. The typical neon device ( or whatever gas ) has a strike voltage of about 90V and will them work down to about 60V. 115V is only slightly more. A resistor is required to limit current. As you say any TD124 can be configued for 115V, nopt so a Garrard, at least a pulley change.
The idea a machine could have come over from Europe still holds.
It could have come from anywhere, it DOESN'T matter. They are identical except for the side of the pulley used (50Hz vs 60Hz) and the motor tap selected. The neon is fixed wired across one of the motor windings and receives the same range of voltages regardless of the line voltage tap used.
According to kleppermaster it lights when plugged into a 120V 60Hz wall socket and doesn't light when powered by the SOLA and that probably has something to do with the crest factor of the AC waveform. The Sola I had measured about 117V, but the waveform did not have the crest factor of a normal AC sinusoidal waveform, it looked a bit flatttened.
According to kleppermaster it lights when plugged into a 120V 60Hz wall socket and doesn't light when powered by the SOLA and that probably has something to do with the crest factor of the AC waveform. The Sola I had measured about 117V, but the waveform did not have the crest factor of a normal AC sinusoidal waveform, it looked a bit flatttened.
I mounted them With the same bolt I extracted the old ones With. I used some teflon tape on the threads to avoid damaging the New bushings surface. After mounting it is a tight fit between the New bushings and the stepped pulley axle. The pulley do not spin freely. Will this loosen after some running in?