BTW. So as to get the right BTDC the car was put in 2nd gear and pushed. That also helped fight the partial compression on the lossened plugs. With an auto gearbox you need to crank the engine to see the rotation. It was a long time ago. 5 degrees before TDC is what I must have used, Triumph motorcycles use to say if in doubt it usually would work. The spark is not the best way as it needs a few repeats of position to be sure and there is some movements of the parts. The idea had been to stop if needed and slightly move the timing. It wasn't a problem.
My VW diesel has a problem which is not awful. To fix it is more than the value of the car. I live with it. Shame as it's about 20 % of the BHP. The garage guy has the same and switches off the engine on the move. He said he's mad and I mustn't. Unless white smoke comes out I will leave it. I sometimes pull over and do what he does. When going up a long hill that isn't always possible. My garage guy did what he could and it now seem much better. I don't ask for 100% power now, 80 % on a long hill works and I am not always the slower car.
My VW diesel has a problem which is not awful. To fix it is more than the value of the car. I live with it. Shame as it's about 20 % of the BHP. The garage guy has the same and switches off the engine on the move. He said he's mad and I mustn't. Unless white smoke comes out I will leave it. I sometimes pull over and do what he does. When going up a long hill that isn't always possible. My garage guy did what he could and it now seem much better. I don't ask for 100% power now, 80 % on a long hill works and I am not always the slower car.
Oil recommendation
Hi Kevin,
Can you please list the modern equivalents you refer to in this post. I am getting to the stage of my rebuild to get the correct lubricants, and just trying to get a slightly better idea of specific ones.
Many thanks,
KevinH, South Africa
Hi Kevin,
Can you please list the modern equivalents you refer to in this post. I am getting to the stage of my rebuild to get the correct lubricants, and just trying to get a slightly better idea of specific ones.
Many thanks,
KevinH, South Africa
It's very easy. SAE 20 or 30 no additives. The bearings are not modern so need correct oils. Most modern oils are for cars which are nothing like the same. Clock repairers have this problem. Some use an oil not unlike Kerosene.
Quote
The Thorens 124 is as with Swiss made products more precise: Caltex or Texaco Regal oil B. This is turbine oil -20wt viscosity. Not made today. Equivalent is Texaco R&O 46 -this is a turbine oil with straight 20wt viscosity. ( Correct ).
Garrard 401 spindle oil?
Quote
The Thorens 124 is as with Swiss made products more precise: Caltex or Texaco Regal oil B. This is turbine oil -20wt viscosity. Not made today. Equivalent is Texaco R&O 46 -this is a turbine oil with straight 20wt viscosity. ( Correct ).
Garrard 401 spindle oil?
Hi Nigel, many thanks. I have in fact just got home from a quick foray to a shop that specialises in "olde engine" parts et al. Found an SAE 30 monograde oil (500ml) for £1-50, with an API category of SF/CC. Should be good for a try out. I can't seem to source an SAE 20 oil, but haven't had a chance to look at the hobby shops yet. RC planes with their electric motors might use the type of oil required. They also might have turbine oil, what with some of the miniature turbofans currently available. Other option is to order 3-in-1 electric motor SAE 20 from Amazon.
Regards,
Kevin
Regards,
Kevin
Imported British cars had a terrible reputation here, they could not hack the cold weather and crumbled to an early death due to the salt.
Automobiles are a bad example of nostalgic recall because, probably, 90% of those must have dream cars ended up at the crushers within 15 years.
Squirreling away old audio over the years took up very little room and can prove to be very rewarding, what with the internet setting the values.
Well done. I was watching a USA car show. They had a 1954 car with automatic transmission. What came out looked like normal ATF ( can be used for Thorens ). The original was Whale oil based! So if using a modern type it is not exactly as the cars of today and needs to be bought as the exact grade. If that is true is not something I can say. If the deck is show coming to speed it will need SAE20.
I have a Volvo and forum arguments on the correct ATF frequently got/gets very heated, even though the choices appeared to be just 3 brands.
Before changing my ATF I did the research and purchased the correct fluid because a transmission job is expensive, but I'm not sure choosing the wrong grade of oil will harm a record deck?
I have a small bottle of vintage Connoisseur Oil and it is thick, like gear or motor oil, certainly not instrument oil. I'll use some on my 124 and report back.
Before changing my ATF I did the research and purchased the correct fluid because a transmission job is expensive, but I'm not sure choosing the wrong grade of oil will harm a record deck?
I have a small bottle of vintage Connoisseur Oil and it is thick, like gear or motor oil, certainly not instrument oil. I'll use some on my 124 and report back.
As a rule a good double washout with simple oil should flush out the bad stuff. Rega had a very bad problem with this exact bearing type in the Airpax - Philips motor. It is a low vibration type with low torque. A black gunge built up in the bearings which in the end caused them to stop. Rega thought correct oil would save the motors. It very much didn't. I washed out a number of them ( I think some needed 4 treatments over 2 years ). After repeated re-lube 80% were saved. However some were not. Rega said as far as they knew a lad in Belgium instead of ordering the correct oil used modern motor oil at the Airpax factory.
I am told early 1950's ATF was produced out of Whale oil. There is a modern grade replacement which is not standard ATF! I always thought non virgine olive oil should work in TD124 if changed every year.
I am told early 1950's ATF was produced out of Whale oil. There is a modern grade replacement which is not standard ATF! I always thought non virgine olive oil should work in TD124 if changed every year.
From my experience, lubrication dries out over time and has nothing to do with choice of grade.
Besides my 124, I had problems with a Nikon film scanner, the infamous Canon shutter squeak and a Leitz Pradovit slide projector which had a warning label not to lubricate. Also I was given a vintage Callaro tape deck with gummed up bearings.
I forgot to mention, a Hammond tone wheel organ.
Besides my 124, I had problems with a Nikon film scanner, the infamous Canon shutter squeak and a Leitz Pradovit slide projector which had a warning label not to lubricate. Also I was given a vintage Callaro tape deck with gummed up bearings.
I forgot to mention, a Hammond tone wheel organ.
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Each kind of mat gives its sound character to the 124. Rubber standard is fine and record sticks well on the rubber surface if rubber is well cleaned. If we add a felt mat the record can spin a little bit as it has not a stable (sticky) position on the surface of the felt. I think this reduces stability of the record on the platter when in use and the needle's force to the different grove modulation-shapes can cause very small speed variations due to the felt mat. TD124 is excellent on PRAT but using mat with surfaces which are not sticky it loses most times that fantastic PRAT and it's absolute speed accuracy compared to most other tts. MHO is to add ,if required ,mats with a kind of sticky surface.
Regarding isolation for using MC with high magnetic field I think the thickness of the total additions of mats has to do be about 3,5 mm. I am using an Audio Note MC Io1using Alnico magnet on an FR64S and additional mats are required ,as when arm is adjusted to 2gr the weight increases to 2,5 gr on the record.. I am waiting to receive a Schopper platter ,bearing and spindle as the sandwich of mats are reducing the sound quality and PRAT. It is important to do that as I want my cartridge to ..live more
and give the best of it's specs and not be ''working'' over a (reacting) magnetic platter as magnetic fields are always changing (lower and higher) due to position of the cartridge from the outer to the inner periphery of the platter.
Regarding isolation for using MC with high magnetic field I think the thickness of the total additions of mats has to do be about 3,5 mm. I am using an Audio Note MC Io1using Alnico magnet on an FR64S and additional mats are required ,as when arm is adjusted to 2gr the weight increases to 2,5 gr on the record.. I am waiting to receive a Schopper platter ,bearing and spindle as the sandwich of mats are reducing the sound quality and PRAT. It is important to do that as I want my cartridge to ..live more
and give the best of it's specs and not be ''working'' over a (reacting) magnetic platter as magnetic fields are always changing (lower and higher) due to position of the cartridge from the outer to the inner periphery of the platter.I always wondered what a 12 mm acrylic mat would do for a TD124 of this type. The thinking being acrylic has a neutral sound and should damp the platter a little. It will not add too much mass. It would be cheaper than many materials. Top it off with a cork mat perhaps of 2 mm thickness with a centre cut out to allow the record to lay flat.
The centre hole is > 7.15 mm or > 9/32".
The centre hole is > 7.15 mm or > 9/32".
I recently swapped out the zamac platter for an original iron platter. Upon first play I noticed the background wasn't as quiet as it was with the zamac platter. I thought this might be due to magnetic attraction. The cartridge is an AT33PTGII. I tried my DV20x2L and got similar results.
As an experiment I stacked an extra rubber mat over the stock rubber mat and adjusted vta accordingly. The result was a quieter background, but my system sounded bass heavy as compared to what I'm accustomed to hearing with any of my table/arm/cartridge combinations. I wasn't too concerned about this since it was only an experiment and not my final solution.
I have several cork mats, and assembled a combination that resulted in a 5.25mm thick mat. This is approximately 2.25 thicker than the stock mat. Again the background is quieter, but the system is bass heavy.
This is why I'm looking for advice on mat thickness. I don't want to chew up my records, but I also don't like this bass heavy sound.
As an experiment I stacked an extra rubber mat over the stock rubber mat and adjusted vta accordingly. The result was a quieter background, but my system sounded bass heavy as compared to what I'm accustomed to hearing with any of my table/arm/cartridge combinations. I wasn't too concerned about this since it was only an experiment and not my final solution.
I have several cork mats, and assembled a combination that resulted in a 5.25mm thick mat. This is approximately 2.25 thicker than the stock mat. Again the background is quieter, but the system is bass heavy.
This is why I'm looking for advice on mat thickness. I don't want to chew up my records, but I also don't like this bass heavy sound.
We made a bronze platter for the Garrard 301. Same results. Someone noted the tracking weight went up with the TD124 iron platter. Here is a link.
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1075012
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=1075012
tracking force, iron platter and MC cartridges
This might be somewhat off topic, since the subject brought up is platter mat thickness for the Td124, while presumably using the light upper aluminum platter. The iron platter does get some pull off the magnetic field of an MC cartridge. MC's use stronger magnets than do MM or MI types.
Three photos above:
They demonstrate that there is a pull coming from the platter. This does not mean that we have to live with higher tracking forces. Far from it. The technique for settting tracking force over the iron platter is simply to position the tracking force gage over the platter not far from the spindle pin and set the force level there. That way any additional magnetic pull is factored into the equation. The only time downforce is lighter will be when the cartridge isn't over the record.
re: mats.
I've tried a few. Some were diy. Some were sacreligious in that I simply used a 5mm thick BA Mat2 (carbon mat) directly over the iron platter (no upper shell, no clutch action). Ultimately I find myself back to the oem rubber mat on the light aluminum clutch platter.
re: iron platter and bass heavy sound. I've never heard of this complaint before. Nor do I experience it in my own system. Although the iron platter, denser, higher mass, does result in an increase in bass weight to the presentation, I've always found this welcome and preferred.
-Steve
This might be somewhat off topic, since the subject brought up is platter mat thickness for the Td124, while presumably using the light upper aluminum platter. The iron platter does get some pull off the magnetic field of an MC cartridge. MC's use stronger magnets than do MM or MI types.
Three photos above:
They demonstrate that there is a pull coming from the platter. This does not mean that we have to live with higher tracking forces. Far from it. The technique for settting tracking force over the iron platter is simply to position the tracking force gage over the platter not far from the spindle pin and set the force level there. That way any additional magnetic pull is factored into the equation. The only time downforce is lighter will be when the cartridge isn't over the record.
re: mats.
I've tried a few. Some were diy. Some were sacreligious in that I simply used a 5mm thick BA Mat2 (carbon mat) directly over the iron platter (no upper shell, no clutch action). Ultimately I find myself back to the oem rubber mat on the light aluminum clutch platter.
re: iron platter and bass heavy sound. I've never heard of this complaint before. Nor do I experience it in my own system. Although the iron platter, denser, higher mass, does result in an increase in bass weight to the presentation, I've always found this welcome and preferred.
-Steve
Unfortunately I don't have this type of tracking force gauge, and I haven't seen them anywhere.
Perhaps I'll see if I can get to the proper elevation from the platter using one of my gauges while the aluminum upper platter is removed.
If I can return to the stock rubber mat I think I would like to do so. I thought though, that I'd read that many people, including you, had added thickness to the mat to reduce the magnetic attraction, which is why I took that route. Getting an accurate measurement and compensating for the attractions seems like a better solution.
Regarding the bass heavy observation, I noticed this only when I started stacking mats. It may have been present when I first auditioned the iron platter, but if it was I didn't hear it.
Perhaps I'll see if I can get to the proper elevation from the platter using one of my gauges while the aluminum upper platter is removed.
If I can return to the stock rubber mat I think I would like to do so. I thought though, that I'd read that many people, including you, had added thickness to the mat to reduce the magnetic attraction, which is why I took that route. Getting an accurate measurement and compensating for the attractions seems like a better solution.
Regarding the bass heavy observation, I noticed this only when I started stacking mats. It may have been present when I first auditioned the iron platter, but if it was I didn't hear it.
I believe that the best sound quality of this tt comes using the original set up with the light top platter over the iron main platter as it doesn't hold energy All the heavy platters of the other tts store energy that is transferred to the vinyl record and to the needle of the cartridge and so on. This theory for heavy platters is correct and our TD 124 does not suffer from this energy storage due to the light aluminum platter. This is one of the reasons why the 124 sounds so live , organic and dynamic and is superior to most modern tts which cost many times more.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I removed the upper platter and calculated the thickness of the pads plus the upper platter and mat, plus a record to be approximately 6mm, which is about as thick as my scale, so I calibrated tracking force by placing the scale on the bare platter. My results were similar to what is pictured above at nearly a half a gram added by magnetic attraction.
After calibrating I reinstalled the stock mat and all is good. Background is about as quiet as it was before, bass heaviness is gone.
I have a record level scale coming and will check the tracking force in the preferred manner when it arrives.
After calibrating I reinstalled the stock mat and all is good. Background is about as quiet as it was before, bass heaviness is gone.
I have a record level scale coming and will check the tracking force in the preferred manner when it arrives.
I think the tracking force is perhaps hiding at advantage in that the magnetic pull involves a small ammont of damping, the force is not trivial if the DL103. However the magnetic field might be pulled enough to change the distortion spectra. I remember a conversation between Frank Schroeder and Jonathan Carr about shaped pole pieces and what shape might be best. I think it lasted at least 2 hours. Serrious stuff when MC pick ups.
I suspect my 12 mm acrylic platter is ideal . Make a new 7.15mm ( 9/32" ) spindle to drop in on top of the TD124 one, wood is OK is needs must. Should look great. It seems a shame not to use the iron platter if one can. The two should give dynamics and neutrality.
I suspect my 12 mm acrylic platter is ideal . Make a new 7.15mm ( 9/32" ) spindle to drop in on top of the TD124 one, wood is OK is needs must. Should look great. It seems a shame not to use the iron platter if one can. The two should give dynamics and neutrality.