Hi
I am finishing up helping a guy put together a PA system with a Pair of PAS 18s crossed into a pair of vintage EV 2-1503s
Anyone have any favorite, clean, well-mastered tracks that they like to use when setting up a PA? The guy likes kick drum and while it ain't hard to find a track with plenty of kick drum, I just wondered what you guys might use. I suppose I should put together a little mix of rock, funk, jazz and the 1812 Overture.
Suggestions?
Suggestions to just go through my own kajillion song collection?
Later
Phil
I am finishing up helping a guy put together a PA system with a Pair of PAS 18s crossed into a pair of vintage EV 2-1503s
Anyone have any favorite, clean, well-mastered tracks that they like to use when setting up a PA? The guy likes kick drum and while it ain't hard to find a track with plenty of kick drum, I just wondered what you guys might use. I suppose I should put together a little mix of rock, funk, jazz and the 1812 Overture.
Suggestions?
Suggestions to just go through my own kajillion song collection?
Later
Phil
Hi
I don't think there will be a sound man. Once the PA is delivered it won't be my problem, but I'm going to have to demo it before he takes it. He's a drummer and his dream is having a kickdrum that would crumble concrete. He's not quite going to get that, but it would be good, the first time I rev it up for him, if he hears something with good, well mixed and mastered kick drum. Metallica would have plenty of kick drum as would Killswitch Engage, but I don't know if he's into that!
Jazz-funk might be better, but my collection of that is very limited and what I have has a lot of synth bass swamping most of the kick anyway. Not that synth bass doesn't give stuff a workout.
Phil
I don't think there will be a sound man. Once the PA is delivered it won't be my problem, but I'm going to have to demo it before he takes it. He's a drummer and his dream is having a kickdrum that would crumble concrete. He's not quite going to get that, but it would be good, the first time I rev it up for him, if he hears something with good, well mixed and mastered kick drum. Metallica would have plenty of kick drum as would Killswitch Engage, but I don't know if he's into that!
Jazz-funk might be better, but my collection of that is very limited and what I have has a lot of synth bass swamping most of the kick anyway. Not that synth bass doesn't give stuff a workout.
Phil
To prove amp power, bass response, damping factor and time alignment, I use ZZ Top, Woke up with Wood track. Might be a synth drum but sounds like the 30" Ludwig I used to march next to in the band. Make that two 30" bass drums, those guys were always in perfect sync. Our High school drum section (24 of us) was loud enough to bounce a tutti hit off the bank building 1 mile away and listen to the echo 3 seconds later.
To prove overall flatness of frequency response and lack of distortion I use piano tracks. I know what a Steinway grand sounds like, your PA should be able to sound like that. Electronicly generated instruments, you don't know what even the sound engineer was hearing. I use Colombia Three Beethoven Sonatas, Rudolf Serkin, Moonlight movement 3, CD or LP, to prove the amp has FF piano hit capacity without going honky(many don't). I use the dynagroove LP of Peter Nero Young and Warm and Wonderful the Secret Love track where the top octave is played alone with cymbal, to prove tweeter distortion is minimum (most produce SSSHH sounds, or the amp can).
If you have subwoofers, the JS Bach complete by Lionel Rogg at the Zurich church has some 32' pipe organ sounds on it, I think. 20 Hz C0's. Most organ LP's have the bass backed way off. I like the Passacaglia & Fugue in C min track.
To prove overall flatness of frequency response and lack of distortion I use piano tracks. I know what a Steinway grand sounds like, your PA should be able to sound like that. Electronicly generated instruments, you don't know what even the sound engineer was hearing. I use Colombia Three Beethoven Sonatas, Rudolf Serkin, Moonlight movement 3, CD or LP, to prove the amp has FF piano hit capacity without going honky(many don't). I use the dynagroove LP of Peter Nero Young and Warm and Wonderful the Secret Love track where the top octave is played alone with cymbal, to prove tweeter distortion is minimum (most produce SSSHH sounds, or the amp can).
If you have subwoofers, the JS Bach complete by Lionel Rogg at the Zurich church has some 32' pipe organ sounds on it, I think. 20 Hz C0's. Most organ LP's have the bass backed way off. I like the Passacaglia & Fugue in C min track.
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Hi
Ah, the Eliminator album. I'm sure I have the Serkin Moonlight somewhere too. That is indeed a spectacular piece of music.
I tried to find the Peter Nero track on Youtube, but it wasn't there, and I know nothing about him other than the discography.
What I really want is a track with someone doing a drum roll from top to bottom on about 6-8 toms (in tune!). I don't particularly want a flashy drum solo; just about every live album has one of those somewhere, but I would like to just hear a waterfall effect from a small roto-tom down to whatever drummers pound on for floor toms...what, 18-inch maybe? He's a drummer, that's what he does, and frankly I don't think he cares much about F-F on a Steinway. I might though, and it's me tweaking this thing up. I want to go in with a representative selection of useful things.
Neil Peart must have something somewhere...but i don't know that much Rush. The Professor fans must be out there??
Thanks
Phil
Ah, the Eliminator album. I'm sure I have the Serkin Moonlight somewhere too. That is indeed a spectacular piece of music.
I tried to find the Peter Nero track on Youtube, but it wasn't there, and I know nothing about him other than the discography.
What I really want is a track with someone doing a drum roll from top to bottom on about 6-8 toms (in tune!). I don't particularly want a flashy drum solo; just about every live album has one of those somewhere, but I would like to just hear a waterfall effect from a small roto-tom down to whatever drummers pound on for floor toms...what, 18-inch maybe? He's a drummer, that's what he does, and frankly I don't think he cares much about F-F on a Steinway. I might though, and it's me tweaking this thing up. I want to go in with a representative selection of useful things.
Neil Peart must have something somewhere...but i don't know that much Rush. The Professor fans must be out there??
Thanks
Phil
Maybe I'm not the best person to respond; never have considered myself an audiophile. But for Neil Peart I might suggest "Xanadu" from Farewell To Kings or "Something For Nothing" from 2112. I always liked Jody Stephens' roll about 2:30 into "September Gurls" from Big Star's Radio City album... IMO a very underrated rock drummer. Listened to the album again the other day, and Lou Reed's "Charley's Girl" from Coney Island Baby is on my short list of "in your face kick drum" songs.
Record *the guy* himself playing *his drums* in digital (of course) and play that back.
Of course if he sucks, then he won't like *his* playing/sound. Ha ha.
But seriously, there is no relationship between commercially recorded music and what is normally dropped into a PA/SR system. Especially if the band/mixer person/system is unfamiliar with limiting or there is no limiter at all anywhere in the system.
Otoh, there are a number of drum only CDs to be had. Including a Ginger Baker... that might be the next best thing for you to use.
Say... hang on... this guy isn't *Buddy Rich* is he?
_-_-bear
Of course if he sucks, then he won't like *his* playing/sound. Ha ha.
But seriously, there is no relationship between commercially recorded music and what is normally dropped into a PA/SR system. Especially if the band/mixer person/system is unfamiliar with limiting or there is no limiter at all anywhere in the system.
Otoh, there are a number of drum only CDs to be had. Including a Ginger Baker... that might be the next best thing for you to use.
Say... hang on... this guy isn't *Buddy Rich* is he?
_-_-bear
Those were the two I was going to suggest - in addition to Metallica "Nothing Else Matters". I use them for PA tuning - but the caveat here is it's for DJ setup, not live. The truth is it will be really difficult to get *your* live kick to sound anything like that unless your're doing a LOT of processing and have the goods to back it up (subs that can legitimately do 30 Hz is a plus). With most setups, you'll have to settle for a lot "drier" kick sound and turn the overall level up. For a really good dry kick track there's always Neil Peart "The Weapon". That one will knock you on your *** turned up loud enough even if you can only get down to 60.
"Nothing Else Matters" and "Money For Nothing" are a completely different experience played through a stack of labhorns vs. my 40 Hz boxes.
For a live sound system you need "tune it / ring it out" with mic and some old fashioned check one two. Provided the person doing the check one two's knows what their listening for, what they are hearing and how to adjust the system accordingly. Playback music will get you a general balance of low mid highs but an open mic on in the room is what you need to check it with. Even when a system is tuned with something like SMARRT a mic check one two is still the final test.
Hi guys
Boney M is interesting, especially at 3 places...same track??? Which one?
Back in Black and Money for Nothing i know. The others I'll take a listen to, if for no other reason to hear new stuff.
I know the difference between playing a CD through a PA and mixing a live band through one, but this guy doesn't (no, he ain't Buddy Rich) but his ideas of what he wants this for vary daily. From what I can gather, he wants to run a (very loud) karaoke show, but have his drums mixed in so he can play along with the karaoke track, but then he might have a few guest musicians drop in or he might have a full band, or he might ... you get the idea. He also tosses around dangerous terms like "crystalline" and "absolute" and "JBL" and "flown" but he still insists on using an old pair of ludicrously heavy old 70's EV cabs for tops and an excruciatingly heavy old Crown Power Base 3 to drive em. They probably sounded great then, and they may still do so now, especially as top boxes, but if he's thinking it's going to sound how it sounded when he saw Rush at the Boston Garden last year it could be a long night for me.
Essentially, I am going to set this up as a DJ, tune it using a laptop with Winamp using Stereotool as a plugin and tell him, "If you are as good as Neil Peart, that's how you'll sound." But, just so I can sleep at night I do actualy want it to sound as good as possible as a DJ rig and I think Stereotool certainly has enough compressor/limiter magic to get me there, and there's limiting on the crossover and power amp if anyone gets over-enthusiastic on his world-class Mackie 16-channel.
Bottoms are handled by a pair of PAS 18" in slot-ported cabs with about 1000 watts available and there is going to be a hard cut-off at 50Hz on the amp + EQs and, as all he is interested in is kick drum, I might add some compression, mess about with a little bump around 80 and cut even the 63Hz slider on the EQ too, so the suggestion of "The Weapon" sounds perfect. I only have a 3630 as a compressor, so if anyone has a recommended setting for kickdrum, don't be shy. I was thinking about using the other side of the 3630 on the drum sub-group insert, and try punch up the whole shebang, but as I only have a two-channel compressor right now I am thinking one side of it should be used on the vocal subgroup, especially if karaoke singers are involved. They need all the help they can get IMHO (although I hasten to add my experience of karaoke is all of 30 minutes out of my entire life). This IS only a 3630 after all, so your opinions on what to do with it (yeah, I've heard "throw it away" before) are welcome on that score too. A dbx 266xl can be had for 100 bucks or less, and probably will be added, so throw that into your equation.
Top boxes are these old EV 1503s, which have a very good rep but I am afraid they might fly apart. They only handle 200 watts apiece, but with them pole mounted and with the average club/bar gig around here being less than 200 people (a lot less for the most part from what I recall as a live engineer) they should approach the threshold of pain before they do fly apart I think. I don't know what the nightlife throbs like where you live, but here in Moo Hampshire I can only think of one club that could handle maybe 250 people. He actually has 4 of these EVs (that he refuses to put wheels on because of the "structural integrity of a classic" issue) and I think he's waiting for me to come up with the idea of just stacking a pair per side on top of one of these PAS bottoms, but I think then the mids would just run riot over the bass. I wouldn't say I'm not just a bit tempted to see what would happen tho. If I had two 18s a side, I could see that working maybe. But the weight would just crack New Hampshire off the eastern seaboard and float it off as an autonomous landmass in the Atlantic somewhere. Worse things have happened i suppose.
I used to be all idealistic as a live engineer thinking that I was a crucial part of the machinery of awesome sound and essential to a brilliant night on the town, but the sad truth as I perceive it now is that bars want to sell beer and punters want to get laid, and if your pumped-up vocals, breathy reverbs and gut-kickin' bass gets in the way of either, you've already lost the game. I sure as hell still love messin' about with the gear though. Now I'm just an old fart, but I remember the 80s...load-in at 3pm, breakdown at 2am, bed when the sun comes up (maybe). 4 nights a week, 125 bucks a week and first dibs on the early-bird buffet. Different times.
Boney M is interesting, especially at 3 places...same track??? Which one?
Back in Black and Money for Nothing i know. The others I'll take a listen to, if for no other reason to hear new stuff.
I know the difference between playing a CD through a PA and mixing a live band through one, but this guy doesn't (no, he ain't Buddy Rich) but his ideas of what he wants this for vary daily. From what I can gather, he wants to run a (very loud) karaoke show, but have his drums mixed in so he can play along with the karaoke track, but then he might have a few guest musicians drop in or he might have a full band, or he might ... you get the idea. He also tosses around dangerous terms like "crystalline" and "absolute" and "JBL" and "flown" but he still insists on using an old pair of ludicrously heavy old 70's EV cabs for tops and an excruciatingly heavy old Crown Power Base 3 to drive em. They probably sounded great then, and they may still do so now, especially as top boxes, but if he's thinking it's going to sound how it sounded when he saw Rush at the Boston Garden last year it could be a long night for me.
Essentially, I am going to set this up as a DJ, tune it using a laptop with Winamp using Stereotool as a plugin and tell him, "If you are as good as Neil Peart, that's how you'll sound." But, just so I can sleep at night I do actualy want it to sound as good as possible as a DJ rig and I think Stereotool certainly has enough compressor/limiter magic to get me there, and there's limiting on the crossover and power amp if anyone gets over-enthusiastic on his world-class Mackie 16-channel.
Bottoms are handled by a pair of PAS 18" in slot-ported cabs with about 1000 watts available and there is going to be a hard cut-off at 50Hz on the amp + EQs and, as all he is interested in is kick drum, I might add some compression, mess about with a little bump around 80 and cut even the 63Hz slider on the EQ too, so the suggestion of "The Weapon" sounds perfect. I only have a 3630 as a compressor, so if anyone has a recommended setting for kickdrum, don't be shy. I was thinking about using the other side of the 3630 on the drum sub-group insert, and try punch up the whole shebang, but as I only have a two-channel compressor right now I am thinking one side of it should be used on the vocal subgroup, especially if karaoke singers are involved. They need all the help they can get IMHO (although I hasten to add my experience of karaoke is all of 30 minutes out of my entire life). This IS only a 3630 after all, so your opinions on what to do with it (yeah, I've heard "throw it away" before) are welcome on that score too. A dbx 266xl can be had for 100 bucks or less, and probably will be added, so throw that into your equation.
Top boxes are these old EV 1503s, which have a very good rep but I am afraid they might fly apart. They only handle 200 watts apiece, but with them pole mounted and with the average club/bar gig around here being less than 200 people (a lot less for the most part from what I recall as a live engineer) they should approach the threshold of pain before they do fly apart I think. I don't know what the nightlife throbs like where you live, but here in Moo Hampshire I can only think of one club that could handle maybe 250 people. He actually has 4 of these EVs (that he refuses to put wheels on because of the "structural integrity of a classic" issue) and I think he's waiting for me to come up with the idea of just stacking a pair per side on top of one of these PAS bottoms, but I think then the mids would just run riot over the bass. I wouldn't say I'm not just a bit tempted to see what would happen tho. If I had two 18s a side, I could see that working maybe. But the weight would just crack New Hampshire off the eastern seaboard and float it off as an autonomous landmass in the Atlantic somewhere. Worse things have happened i suppose.
I used to be all idealistic as a live engineer thinking that I was a crucial part of the machinery of awesome sound and essential to a brilliant night on the town, but the sad truth as I perceive it now is that bars want to sell beer and punters want to get laid, and if your pumped-up vocals, breathy reverbs and gut-kickin' bass gets in the way of either, you've already lost the game. I sure as hell still love messin' about with the gear though. Now I'm just an old fart, but I remember the 80s...load-in at 3pm, breakdown at 2am, bed when the sun comes up (maybe). 4 nights a week, 125 bucks a week and first dibs on the early-bird buffet. Different times.
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