In fairness, Ern, that one is a parallel crossover. Metal cones always need a lot of work at the crossover stage. Lynn Olson hates that sort of time consuming project. 
Bit of a monster, if you don't mind me saying, Wolf. I think I follow it, but I wouldn't fancy building it. 4th order bass and 6th order treble with more notches than I've ever seen. I think it's your Dark Goth style that krafty can't get his head round.
This reflex WLM La Scala style is much more suited to a beginner IMO. In fact the La Scala is a seriously expensive speaker, but we can do a clone.
That is a Visaton W200S pressed steel chassis paper bass and a Visaton TW70 self enclosed paper cone tweeter. If you look the driver up, Visaton give you the bass alignment tube dimensions. Don't overcomplicate the cabinet with bracing, reflex isn't all that demanding of solidity, but it'd do no harm to stick some rubber-backed carpet to the sides and top and bottom and a bit of fluff behind the woofer. 3kHz Crossover can be modelled in Boxsim. I'd do 1.5mH bass coil and the rest of my cookbook KEF-type filter follows.
It'll sound great, believe me. I could dream of a SEAS Excel bass driver, but the W200S is not bad at all. That cone tweeter is seriously musical sounding, better than most domes IMO.
Bit of a monster, if you don't mind me saying, Wolf. I think I follow it, but I wouldn't fancy building it. 4th order bass and 6th order treble with more notches than I've ever seen. I think it's your Dark Goth style that krafty can't get his head round.
This reflex WLM La Scala style is much more suited to a beginner IMO. In fact the La Scala is a seriously expensive speaker, but we can do a clone.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That is a Visaton W200S pressed steel chassis paper bass and a Visaton TW70 self enclosed paper cone tweeter. If you look the driver up, Visaton give you the bass alignment tube dimensions. Don't overcomplicate the cabinet with bracing, reflex isn't all that demanding of solidity, but it'd do no harm to stick some rubber-backed carpet to the sides and top and bottom and a bit of fluff behind the woofer. 3kHz Crossover can be modelled in Boxsim. I'd do 1.5mH bass coil and the rest of my cookbook KEF-type filter follows.
It'll sound great, believe me. I could dream of a SEAS Excel bass driver, but the W200S is not bad at all. That cone tweeter is seriously musical sounding, better than most domes IMO.
The Visaton guy contacted me today. He's going to work on some 25% discount on my order. Nice, isn't it? (That's to alleviate the import tax and freight, and the fact that they don't have any distributors here in Banana land. Just joking. I know for a fact that Dominica is a real banana exporter...) W200S for 37 EUR and TW70 for 9 EUR.
Aw, brilliant krafty! Good ol' Visaton. I've got those drivers lying about, as it goes. But so busy with other projects.
I've got a filter for you to start simming with in Boxsim. I'm not saying it's the very best, but it'll work very well and it's simple enough to be practical.
You can modify it if you see fit. You could take the impedance higher by putting a resistor in front of the treble filter for instance. Boxsim has an optimiser button that is clever.
I've got a filter for you to start simming with in Boxsim. I'm not saying it's the very best, but it'll work very well and it's simple enough to be practical.
You can modify it if you see fit. You could take the impedance higher by putting a resistor in front of the treble filter for instance. Boxsim has an optimiser button that is clever.
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You mean Solen Canada (Visaton) am I right?!
(They have very good business oriented practices/conduit in general in Canada, or at least from my experience a few years or decades ago.)
No, no... the guy who is responsible for distribution here, he's a Visaton insiderYou mean Solen Canada (Visaton) am I right?!
As for wolf's schemes, well, that gothic looks certainly kills me..
. Now I wonder how he does it, because surely no one could imitate him. Looks like a collage of so many drawings mixed with serigraphs.system7, I will surely give your scheme a good look so I can start listing my new parts to buy...
I once bought some red ink cartridges for my fountain pen at school. I thought it would be cool to submit my physics homework in red ink. Not such a good idea. I lost marks, and the teacher wrote at the bottom: "Please use ink not blood!"
See, you think you are being cool, but sometimes, Wolfie, style is an irritating distraction from content. On magazines, plenty of white space and good layout really helps. Pictures on the left, print on the right suits our brain psychology too. Lower case is much more readable than capitals too. Apple are the masters of that clean look.
Anyway, krafty, I want to get you up to speed on cabinets. Pressed steel chassis have a tendency to ring annoyingly, and you want a lossy cabinet:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/223174-interesting-read-i-found-lossy-cabinet-designs-harbeth.html#post3234256
So a rigid granite or overly braced cabinet would be very bad indeed, if you follow. You need a bit of give and damping. With your box, I would only use a tiny bit of thin square dowel near the bass driver's fixing points. More to hold the cabinet panel joins together than anything.
See, you think you are being cool, but sometimes, Wolfie, style is an irritating distraction from content. On magazines, plenty of white space and good layout really helps. Pictures on the left, print on the right suits our brain psychology too. Lower case is much more readable than capitals too. Apple are the masters of that clean look.
Anyway, krafty, I want to get you up to speed on cabinets. Pressed steel chassis have a tendency to ring annoyingly, and you want a lossy cabinet:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/223174-interesting-read-i-found-lossy-cabinet-designs-harbeth.html#post3234256
So a rigid granite or overly braced cabinet would be very bad indeed, if you follow. You need a bit of give and damping. With your box, I would only use a tiny bit of thin square dowel near the bass driver's fixing points. More to hold the cabinet panel joins together than anything.
I think what you gain in one area, you lose in another.
When I built my current speakers, I built them without any bracing. I was concerned that the bass was far too loose, so I cut the back panel off and fitted a load of shelf bracing. The bass tightened up a hell of a lot.
If you look at high end designs, some manufacturers build rigid cabinets and some lossy. With mine I just went the rigid route but I spaced the bracing unevenly to try to spread out the resonances.
If you could make the cabinet super rigid, you should be able to drive the resonances up and out of the pass band.
EDIT:
Good choice of drivers (Visaton) IMO.
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Dayton's paper version of the RS225 is available and its doubtful it has any severe break up. Unlike the other paper cone models, this one appears to actually have some bass extension to it.
Anyway, its in the budget of the OP and looks like a tough to beat model with its low distortion motor.
Dayton Audio RS225P-8 8" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm | 295-367
Dayton's rs28 tweeter looks to be a good match that can cross low enough. Otherwise, I would use a wave guide loaded tweeter to mate up low. The higher efficiency will also match many tweeters without padding.
Anyway, its in the budget of the OP and looks like a tough to beat model with its low distortion motor.
Dayton Audio RS225P-8 8" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm | 295-367
Dayton's rs28 tweeter looks to be a good match that can cross low enough. Otherwise, I would use a wave guide loaded tweeter to mate up low. The higher efficiency will also match many tweeters without padding.
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I have not as I made my own template. The MAX is an older design from me, so it was an earlier drawing.
Most of my schematics now look like this:
I just made a bitmap template in MS-Paint, and setup as necessary.
If there is anything I can help with, please ask.
Wolf
Perhaps those who are recommending the composite Dayton Audio RS-225P-8 would like to put their money where their mouth is and suggest a circuit for it.
It certainly needs entirely different treatment from the SEAS and Visaton style woofers I have been talking about.
Doesn't look so easy to me. I think we are talking a complete redesign and lower crossover point here.
It certainly needs entirely different treatment from the SEAS and Visaton style woofers I have been talking about.
Doesn't look so easy to me. I think we are talking a complete redesign and lower crossover point here.
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The Visaton deal drowned. Too many taxes and high freight. They even offered a 42% discount. Kudos to them.
I will have to look for a Selenium/JBL driver.
One thing I notice is that in their woofers category, there is not a single driver with the border foam (no acoustic suspension drivers in that category).
I will have to look for a Selenium/JBL driver.
One thing I notice is that in their woofers category, there is not a single driver with the border foam (no acoustic suspension drivers in that category).
Selenium drivers
Yes, they respond more to car audio or PA/pro market than to home audio. I'm not sure what's the reason, but you can always make that question to the Brazilian engineers. You can pay a call (or email) to Eng. Homero Sette Silva (Selenium) to ask that question.
You might have to work like in the old times (with vintage woofers or fullranges). Use the drivers available and be inventive using OB or aperiodic.
The Selenium drivers are a good introduction to open baffle (OB), or the aperiodic (you may have to experiment yourself.
12PW3 / 12PW3 SLF pdf
JBL SELENIUM
Another driver from Selenium (Matador Series) reference# 12SW10A DVC is good in your case, for a sealed speaker 30L and higher (Q 1.2), 50L (Q 1.0), and would give you a good starting point for a serious project 2 or 3 ways. You can also try the OB/aperiodic enclosures with this driver having a lot to deal with, test and measure for years (diy is about).
Selenium Matador pdf
Selenium 12WS600 pdf
Reflex 33L
94.0 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@79.0 dB
Selenium 12WS600 12" 600W Woofer | 264-391
Selenium 15SW3P pdf
Reflex 60L
95.5 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@84.5 dB
JBL 2206H pdf
Reflex 30L (no low freq. extension use the 15")
JBL 2226H, VB = 82 L, FB ~38 Hz pdf
98.3 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@85 dB
You can find kits/speakers arranged around this excellent driver in the PI SPEAKERS website (link below) that was linked before (post#6 by system7), in the form of the "four Pi speaker" kit and others. Wayne P. also arranges for parts like the crossovers layouts for his kits (drivers) only. Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
Rubber lasts longer (than foam or derivatives).
Yes, they respond more to car audio or PA/pro market than to home audio. I'm not sure what's the reason, but you can always make that question to the Brazilian engineers. You can pay a call (or email) to Eng. Homero Sette Silva (Selenium) to ask that question.
You might have to work like in the old times (with vintage woofers or fullranges). Use the drivers available and be inventive using OB or aperiodic.
The Selenium drivers are a good introduction to open baffle (OB), or the aperiodic (you may have to experiment yourself.
12PW3 / 12PW3 SLF pdf
JBL SELENIUM
Another driver from Selenium (Matador Series) reference# 12SW10A DVC is good in your case, for a sealed speaker 30L and higher (Q 1.2), 50L (Q 1.0), and would give you a good starting point for a serious project 2 or 3 ways. You can also try the OB/aperiodic enclosures with this driver having a lot to deal with, test and measure for years (diy is about).
Selenium Matador pdf
Selenium 12WS600 pdf
Reflex 33L
94.0 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@79.0 dB
Selenium 12WS600 12" 600W Woofer | 264-391
Selenium 15SW3P pdf
Reflex 60L
95.5 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@84.5 dB
JBL 2206H pdf
Reflex 30L (no low freq. extension use the 15")
JBL 2226H, VB = 82 L, FB ~38 Hz pdf
98.3 dB/2.83V/m
30Hz@85 dB
You can find kits/speakers arranged around this excellent driver in the PI SPEAKERS website (link below) that was linked before (post#6 by system7), in the form of the "four Pi speaker" kit and others. Wayne P. also arranges for parts like the crossovers layouts for his kits (drivers) only. Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
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Inductor, many thanks for your tips.
Indeed... it seems to be that the whole speaker market here is car oriented. Every manufacturer site I go to (Bravox, Selenium, etc) is "automotive". I will try to list here all the known available brands in here, to see if one of the names shines out to you.
As I did in my other topic, I will do here as well: post pictures of the current enclosure damping material. Will replace for the egg crate foam. At the time when I built that box, I had no idea of what I was doing, but I used gaskets and polyester damping sheet. I also surprised myself that I had drawn a place for a port right in there. Now I just have to cut it.
My goal will be finding the best cost-benefit driver for this 30L box. I guess anything will be superior to this Hinor crap and piezo.
Indeed... it seems to be that the whole speaker market here is car oriented. Every manufacturer site I go to (Bravox, Selenium, etc) is "automotive". I will try to list here all the known available brands in here, to see if one of the names shines out to you.
As I did in my other topic, I will do here as well: post pictures of the current enclosure damping material. Will replace for the egg crate foam. At the time when I built that box, I had no idea of what I was doing, but I used gaskets and polyester damping sheet. I also surprised myself that I had drawn a place for a port right in there. Now I just have to cut it.
My goal will be finding the best cost-benefit driver for this 30L box. I guess anything will be superior to this Hinor crap and piezo.
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