Okay, but we may be talking about 2 different things. Yes, the harmonic series will "guide" the ear to determining the fundamental pitch, but that's not the same as experiencing the same sound as an actual piano in the room.
Guess I need to mess with this here at home when I get some free time. I have some good piano samples I can hi-pass.
[EDIT] Yikes Mooly, I just noticed I missed the next page beyond your link above. Hard to keep up here sometimes.
Guess I need to mess with this here at home when I get some free time. I have some good piano samples I can hi-pass.
[EDIT] Yikes Mooly, I just noticed I missed the next page beyond your link above. Hard to keep up here sometimes.
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Yes, flat response down to the fundamental frequency is required in order to reproduce the recording accurately.
If the music you listen to has LF fundamentals -10dB from harmonics, you may "get away" with a +10 dB boost to achieve flat response, while if you want flat response for music or soundtracks that have equal or greater response at the very low frequency fundamentals, a system with +10 dB more LF capability would be required.
Hi Johno,
The sound board of a piano is a broadband enhancer that isn’t efficient in amplifying low fundamentals. Actually, almost all classical instruments have a suppressed fundamental and the harmonics determine the timbre of the instrument. When a composer writes for a normal classical orchestra (meaning no exceptional, extended or customized instruments) he uses wind instruments to enforce the low fundamentals of a grand piano. Wind instruments are more efficient down low because they make use of quarter wavelength resonances. For instance a composer can use the lowest fundamental on a contrabassoon A-1 (@ 13.75Hz), that has its strongest harmonic on A0 (27.5Hz) to support the lowest key of a grand piano.
This form of interaction between instruments makes an orchestra 'fundamental rich' from A0 al the way up to C8 (@ 4186 Hz, the fundamental of the highest note of a piccolo).
@Pano, the Hammond A series from the mid 30ties has sinus shaped tonewheels that are able to reach down to C0 (16.35Hz).
Regards,
Djim
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For reference, low E on a bass is ~41hz
Here is another good reference.
The lowest string on a guitar is 81-82hz
Lowest string on a bass is about 41hz
some interesting bits of info on hearing:
Speed of sound is about 300m/s in air.
1000hz sound =~1/3m or ~ 1 foot wavelength
We only need 1/4th of a wavelength or less to perceive a vibration
So 3" is the length of 1/4 wavelength.
That is longer than the canal in the human ear.
So anything below ~1000hz is heard by either bone conduction or its picked up by our skin. I like the theory that says our skin is an extension of our ears.
Here is another good reference.
The lowest string on a guitar is 81-82hz
Lowest string on a bass is about 41hz
some interesting bits of info on hearing:
Speed of sound is about 300m/s in air.
1000hz sound =~1/3m or ~ 1 foot wavelength
We only need 1/4th of a wavelength or less to perceive a vibration
So 3" is the length of 1/4 wavelength.
That is longer than the canal in the human ear.
So anything below ~1000hz is heard by either bone conduction or its picked up by our skin. I like the theory that says our skin is an extension of our ears.
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Hopefully to say the same thing in a different way -- depending on your needs, you want flat response from DC to daylight, BUT(!!!) your peak output demands in the low extrema may be quite, quite modest.
This needs to be balanced against the actual room response, too.
Phi,
1)The low E on a 4 string bass is about 41 Hz, but the low B used on 5 string basses used for much, if not most pop music since the mid 1990s is 31 Hz.
2) Perception of vibration is not hearing. It takes much more than 1/4 duration of a wavelength to perceive a note's pitch.
3) The ear canal is a conduit to the inner ear, where sound waves are converted into neural impulses, the length of the ear canal does not determine a "cut off" between hearing and bone conduction.
The inner ear consists of the cochlea, which is a spiral-shaped, fluid-filled tube divided lengthwise by the organ of Corti, which is the main organ of mechanical to neural transduction. Inside the organ of Corti the basilar membrane vibrates when waves from the middle ear propagate through the cochlear fluid – each frequency has a characteristic place of resonance along it. The patterns of oscillations on the basilar membrane are converted to patterns of impulses which transmit "sound data" to the brainstem, where hearing is then perceived.
We hear and feel with our brains, although we may "feel" very low frequencies at a lower level than we "hear" them, most people are capable of hearing 20 Hz with their ears when it reaches 80 dB SPL.
Art
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No sound system will ever create what a real piano in the room will do. first problem being the inability to capture the sound on a recording.
dave
+1
Best reproduced sounds are the ones that don't have to go through a double conversion (mic + speaker)
Your opinion.
dave
PS: thanx for the wood cones
my pleasure, Dave. Hope you have fun with them. Just heard a pair in 21l BR tuned at 39hz, sounds pretty good.
about the 35hz+, i really meant brickwalled, as 200db per octave, not 24db/oct subsonic stuff...
28hz @ -20db, is still there... Make everything disappear below 35hz, and something doesnt feel right on most recordings and you downright miss information on many recordings.
Just go there:
Custom chart - Rate Your Music
Make a chart with 2010's or 2017 best albums... there is not much in the lot that won't need some first octave.
and i'm not even talking movies... Am i the only one who is using his main system to watch movies/TV shows ?
By far the best way to find those ghostly frequencies is to put your favorite music on the scope...being aware of your gradations. Eventually, you'll be minding your own business listening away..& some wave will lock in that reaches all the way across your screen, some five inches wide! If your not acutely familiar with the piece, "Iv'e never heard THAT before?", point proved right there!
Be aware, the lowest f I'm aware of some 16.3 hz. on the pipe Organ...no doubt it is in this transitional phase from being heard, to being felt. If your system is already down 20+ db by then, then you don't even have chance of hearing it, let alone feeling it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------Rick..............
Be aware, the lowest f I'm aware of some 16.3 hz. on the pipe Organ...no doubt it is in this transitional phase from being heard, to being felt. If your system is already down 20+ db by then, then you don't even have chance of hearing it, let alone feeling it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------Rick..............
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Havent had time to read yet. Perhaps relevant? May not be...
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/16944/1/Thesis Jon Burton Revised Version.pdf
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/16944/1/Thesis Jon Burton Revised Version.pdf
Do you know you can cheat? Midi/samples/synth/etc. Ever heard a solo piano midi file being (re)played on a synth thru a decent system? Modern version of player piano. Extremely real sounding. If any of you like solo piano, you really have to try this! Tons of free midi files online and cheap ways to do it.
Hello
I think FM is trimmed to 50hz no matter what song is being played, no matter what format it is played from.
Next most vinyl is also limited for technical reasons in mastering and cutting to 30hz (some exceptions) but mainly to save space fur records go lower.
CDs (digital formats) technically go down to 20hz but depending on music may not have much content that low.
Don’t know about R2R.
Now real life, real instruments and sound in nature and human ears that’s a different topic.
If your sub does 30hz well and with enough power you should cover most recorded music just fine.
Keep in mind that as you go low , your highs need to go equally high in the other direction.
Cheers
Paba
I think FM is trimmed to 50hz no matter what song is being played, no matter what format it is played from.
Next most vinyl is also limited for technical reasons in mastering and cutting to 30hz (some exceptions) but mainly to save space fur records go lower.
CDs (digital formats) technically go down to 20hz but depending on music may not have much content that low.
Don’t know about R2R.
Now real life, real instruments and sound in nature and human ears that’s a different topic.
If your sub does 30hz well and with enough power you should cover most recorded music just fine.
Keep in mind that as you go low , your highs need to go equally high in the other direction.
Cheers
Paba
This short study of natural instrument fundamental vs harmonic strength and how much difference it makes provides further evidence of the rift separating the type of music being listened to. While you guys are studying piano and organ notes i'm sitting here listening to music with computer generated tones which in many cases do not have ANY harmonic signature at all. Picture that - if you remove the fundamental there's no harmonic cue that anything was ever there - the note is just completely gone if the fundamental is not reproduced accurately and at full amplitude.
I doubt that any of the 4 or 5 people commenting on these high pass studies in the last few posts have ever even intentionally listened to a song like this. This is why I was alluding to an age gap and saying that for people that don't love the strong bass notes that it's not even worth it for them to try to reproduce them at full amplitude.
The reverse is also true for me - it wouldn't matter to me whether I listened to opera or classical on a clock/radio or a state of the art full bandwidth zero percent distortion. I don't get the music and I won't appreciate it regardless of the capability of reproduction. Regardless of what system it's played on I'm just going to turn it off. In the same way, the music that NEEDS full amplitude full bandwidth playback capability to accurately reproduce the bass won't be listened to by the people that don't get that genre so there's no need to bother, even though the full bandwidth is ALWAYS going to be at least subtly better.
I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. My collection will sound like lifeless garbage if you high pass it. When the bass FUNDAMENTAL is the focal point how can you bypass it and expect anything good?
I doubt that any of the 4 or 5 people commenting on these high pass studies in the last few posts have ever even intentionally listened to a song like this. This is why I was alluding to an age gap and saying that for people that don't love the strong bass notes that it's not even worth it for them to try to reproduce them at full amplitude.
The reverse is also true for me - it wouldn't matter to me whether I listened to opera or classical on a clock/radio or a state of the art full bandwidth zero percent distortion. I don't get the music and I won't appreciate it regardless of the capability of reproduction. Regardless of what system it's played on I'm just going to turn it off. In the same way, the music that NEEDS full amplitude full bandwidth playback capability to accurately reproduce the bass won't be listened to by the people that don't get that genre so there's no need to bother, even though the full bandwidth is ALWAYS going to be at least subtly better.
I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. My collection will sound like lifeless garbage if you high pass it. When the bass FUNDAMENTAL is the focal point how can you bypass it and expect anything good?
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