Nothing personal:
No argument.
Did you know that lots of concert musicians suffer from hearing disabilities ?
It is very loud inside the orchestra.
"I hear" and "My friends also have heard" means nothing.
Subjective sound perception can be wrong.
Some people prefer added harmonics.
Those chips are all the same.
Ys are selected for linearity or even fabricated with special care, but may have drifted after 10 years or so.
If the Ys generally measure better, they are better.
If 10 pieces of Y measure better than 10 pieces of KY or K2, then you are right about the Ys.
Untill somebody proves that, everything is hot air.
The guy who decided the grade of the chip
did it with an analyzer, not with his golden ears
spzzzzkt said:
No argument.
Did you know that lots of concert musicians suffer from hearing disabilities ?
It is very loud inside the orchestra.
"I hear" and "My friends also have heard" means nothing.
Subjective sound perception can be wrong.
Some people prefer added harmonics.
Those chips are all the same.
Ys are selected for linearity or even fabricated with special care, but may have drifted after 10 years or so.
If the Ys generally measure better, they are better.
If 10 pieces of Y measure better than 10 pieces of KY or K2, then you are right about the Ys.
Untill somebody proves that, everything is hot air.
The guy who decided the grade of the chipdid it with an analyzer, not with his golden ears
Erik,
There are indeed 8 "KY" chips in each Yamaha DA8X, normally all of them will be from the same lot. As for the sound description, please try to search for some of the previous mails in the different PCM63 threads, includes this one (you will find all the answers there, it has been largely discussed ).
Bernhard:
Would you agree to measure, let' say 8x "Y" and 8x "KY" chips, for all of us (will try to get them for this)? I know it is not an easy task (and it is time consuming!); however, it might be of help to get things a bit clearer here. May be you are right - may be there IS a COLOURATION effect? HARMONICS that I (and other here) do like? I don't think so, but you made many interesting points in your mail.
An tricky subject: If you'll check an old (very early) classical recording of the Berlier Philharmoniker & Herbert von Karajan, you might find (on a spectrum Analizer) that there is no any audioble information above 5,500 Hz (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so the sound is wonderfully dark, but most people whould love it. Isn't this strange?
But there is no way that a classical musician today will "hold through" if he doesn't hear: Our todays-music-szene, with the highly demanding-rythm-complex, precision and "speed" is not enabling a not-100%-fit musician to remain in the system. People will have to drop themselves out if they are not 1000% fit. An hearing disable person will suffer from the +115db or more SPL of an orchestral fortissimo (ff); a Violin ffff can be even of +140 db on the ear drum (yes, indeed, it has been measured; hard to believe, but true) and still the musician's hearing remains OK.
It is a simple thing: If not OK, you will see the musicians suffering, simply by reading the faces.
Greetings,
IJ.
There are indeed 8 "KY" chips in each Yamaha DA8X, normally all of them will be from the same lot. As for the sound description, please try to search for some of the previous mails in the different PCM63 threads, includes this one (you will find all the answers there, it has been largely discussed ).
Bernhard:
Would you agree to measure, let' say 8x "Y" and 8x "KY" chips, for all of us (will try to get them for this)? I know it is not an easy task (and it is time consuming!); however, it might be of help to get things a bit clearer here. May be you are right - may be there IS a COLOURATION effect? HARMONICS that I (and other here) do like? I don't think so, but you made many interesting points in your mail.
An tricky subject: If you'll check an old (very early) classical recording of the Berlier Philharmoniker & Herbert von Karajan, you might find (on a spectrum Analizer) that there is no any audioble information above 5,500 Hz (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so the sound is wonderfully dark, but most people whould love it. Isn't this strange?
But there is no way that a classical musician today will "hold through" if he doesn't hear: Our todays-music-szene, with the highly demanding-rythm-complex, precision and "speed" is not enabling a not-100%-fit musician to remain in the system. People will have to drop themselves out if they are not 1000% fit. An hearing disable person will suffer from the +115db or more SPL of an orchestral fortissimo (ff); a Violin ffff can be even of +140 db on the ear drum (yes, indeed, it has been measured; hard to believe, but true) and still the musician's hearing remains OK.
It is a simple thing: If not OK, you will see the musicians suffering, simply by reading the faces.
Greetings,
IJ.
i see multiple problems with this thread here. In my opinion:
1. plastic encapsulation used at different factories might result in bigger differences than comparing different grades of same "batch".
2. "KY , K2 is the best" is THE straight route towards counterfeits.
3. PCM63 almost never survives desoldering (not even KY
)
1. plastic encapsulation used at different factories might result in bigger differences than comparing different grades of same "batch".
2. "KY , K2 is the best" is THE straight route towards counterfeits.
3. PCM63 almost never survives desoldering (not even KY
)tritosine said:
Wrong point no.1:
We do not compare different grades of same "batch". What we do is comparing one grade (= one "batch") with another grade (indeed from a different batch) HOWEVER - until now it was always the Grades where we heard sound differences
with all respect to the possible encapsulation used. You mean - the 3 monkeys? don't look, dont listen and don't talk (??)
3. PCM63 almost never survives desoldering (not even KY
Of course it does: Easily & Always.
I don't get it dear friends. What is the point here and in the above posts?
May be I shell put it like this: While LISTENING TO LIVE MUSIC - if one can't tell if a Clarinett is German or Böhm-System (FR.), and if it is German - if it is made by Wuerlitzer, Leitner & Kraus, Hammerschmidt or Öhler, or if the mouthpiece is made by Viotto or Vandooren, or if the reads are 2.5 or 3 (etc), then PCM63P-P should be more then enough for him, at least for the moment.
If so - one simply dose not need a higher grade. Save your money. May be PCM56 PCM58 etc. are also enough, or more then enough?
Nothing personal.
Things can change when one develops his listening habits however.
As always yours,
IJ
Hello Irgendjemand.
I went thru the posts and found that acording to finneybear:
1. That KY is more musical than K
2. That KK has more extended highs and lows than K
3. That Y combines the strenghts of both KY and KK
Since you seems to have heard them all and have good ears, I would like to ask if you agree?
Best regards
Erik
I went thru the posts and found that acording to finneybear:
1. That KY is more musical than K
2. That KK has more extended highs and lows than K
3. That Y combines the strenghts of both KY and KK
Since you seems to have heard them all and have good ears, I would like to ask if you agree?
Best regards
Erik
Hello Erik,
sorry, I didn't find more time yesterday to anser you in details, but yes, I basically agree here with finney.
BTW, I don't know the KK; in all other points, my impresison was (I heard at least 18 different pairs...):
K is a very clean chip.
K2 is simply better - mainly the highs are clearer then the K. The chip has also some more "depth", not much.
KY is again better - has more roundness & depth then K2. More musical for me.
Y has both/all worlds - very clear and very deep soundstage, and extanded bass as well.
I heard it not only alone, but also with my wife (an active musician as well), with my friend & technician Manfred Hiller (he reported here once largly about it), etc.
The results were always the same. We heard it in 5-6 different DACs and Players. What can I say more?
Greetings,
IJ
sorry, I didn't find more time yesterday to anser you in details, but yes, I basically agree here with finney.
BTW, I don't know the KK; in all other points, my impresison was (I heard at least 18 different pairs...):
K is a very clean chip.
K2 is simply better - mainly the highs are clearer then the K. The chip has also some more "depth", not much.
KY is again better - has more roundness & depth then K2. More musical for me.
Y has both/all worlds - very clear and very deep soundstage, and extanded bass as well.
I heard it not only alone, but also with my wife (an active musician as well), with my friend & technician Manfred Hiller (he reported here once largly about it), etc.
The results were always the same. We heard it in 5-6 different DACs and Players. What can I say more?
Greetings,
IJ
dont listen to me, IJ is musician he knows it better
"PCM63 almost never survives desoldering, even when antistatic measures are taken and heat is applied carefully so maybe this one is as sensitive."
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=394596#post394596
IJ maybe tell them you bought yours directly from Yamaha unsoldered...
moreover, there wont be counterfeits, and internal resistors wont drift
"PCM63 almost never survives desoldering, even when antistatic measures are taken and heat is applied carefully so maybe this one is as sensitive."
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=394596#post394596
IJ maybe tell them you bought yours directly from Yamaha unsoldered...
moreover, there wont be counterfeits, and internal resistors wont drift
Today I compare the PCM63-PK and PCM63-PK2 in my original PCM63 DAC, which includes I2S input, NOS, and "less simple I/V converter". Obviously there is signaficant difference, i.e. PCM-PK2 has better clearity and is more detail. It is quite similar to upgrade from TDA1541A to TDA1541AS2.
Jim Hu
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Jim Hu
tritosine said:IJ maybe tell them you bought yours directly from Yamaha unsoldered... ...moreover, there wont be counterfeits, and internal resistors wont drift
Yes tritosine, I almost forgot this point... Indeed, I got them at the time directly from Yamaha: They have never been soldered before.
BUT - and here it comes to our point: We also soldered some "Y"s directly to the PCB, then remove them and used sockets under, then soldered the "Y" again (!). Nothing went wrong - they sounds like they always sounded = and better then all other pcm63-p (K, K2, KY..).
tatosdak said:
Erik, I think that hdmi has good chips: Manfred just bought 6x (de-soldered) "Y"s from him, and they look very very fine (however he didn't have the chance to listen to them yet; otherwise I would have say - buy from hdmi and "that it is").
BTW, the KYs that we de-soldered from an DA8X are all working fine. In other words, there is no any sign that they are not OK after being de-soldered.
Very interesting indeed! The "K2" that I have are from the Phil... They sounds cleaner then any "K" which I was trying - and one can only wonder how come the "K2" from Korea sounds better then the Japan Chips, etc. I am sure it is indeed so, and actually one should compare the "K2" from the Phil. to the Japan and Korea chips!
However, to my opinion, it would not make a big change in the system & logic: We have enough information to be able to tell that "K2" - even if from Japan, is already better then most "K"s.
Greetings,
Re: PCM63p KY vs Y
Hi Erik,
Please take a look into the following link - as it might give you the answer you are looking for:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1574289#post1574289
As for the sound description: I think it is indeed closer to the "Y" chip then to the "K2". Actually, I like it very much. "KY" is a wonderful chip - it gives something like 97% of the "Y" sound-quality.
Last time I heard & compared it to "Y" was about 4 month ago. The memory tells me that it was very near the top - it was near the so called "fake" (?) "Y" from the year 2003 ( the chips which I and others here got once from Juang (Indonesian)). Some of them were excellent (after very hard work I had to match a pair!!) and only the original Yamaha "Y" was even better.
Greetings,
IJ
tatosdk said:
Hi Erik,
Please take a look into the following link - as it might give you the answer you are looking for:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1574289#post1574289
As for the sound description: I think it is indeed closer to the "Y" chip then to the "K2". Actually, I like it very much. "KY" is a wonderful chip - it gives something like 97% of the "Y" sound-quality.
Last time I heard & compared it to "Y" was about 4 month ago. The memory tells me that it was very near the top - it was near the so called "fake" (?) "Y" from the year 2003 ( the chips which I and others here got once from Juang (Indonesian)). Some of them were excellent (after very hard work I had to match a pair!!) and only the original Yamaha "Y" was even better.
Greetings,
IJ
Hello, Irgendjemand.
I have now managed to get both some PCM63P-Y (new) from Yamaha and some PCM63P-KY from a DA8X.
I have compared them with some PCM63P-K selected by KRELL.
The player I used to compare them, is a modified KRELL KPS20i.
First the Y and KY are much better than the K.
There is a strong similariy betwen Y and KY.
At first I thougt that the Y sounded more interesting and alive, but maybe it is only a matter of a little lower output level of the KY?
I tried to increase the volume by 1dB with the KY and seemingly it then sounded more like the Y.
The other way round I tried to decrease the volume by 1dB with the Y and I got the sound of the KY.
Is it really just a question of volumen?
I have not measured the levels.
Have you had any experience in this regard?
Best regards
Erik
P.S. Thanks a lot for bringing these wonderfull chips to our attention.
I have now managed to get both some PCM63P-Y (new) from Yamaha and some PCM63P-KY from a DA8X.
I have compared them with some PCM63P-K selected by KRELL.
The player I used to compare them, is a modified KRELL KPS20i.
First the Y and KY are much better than the K.
There is a strong similariy betwen Y and KY.
At first I thougt that the Y sounded more interesting and alive, but maybe it is only a matter of a little lower output level of the KY?
I tried to increase the volume by 1dB with the KY and seemingly it then sounded more like the Y.
The other way round I tried to decrease the volume by 1dB with the Y and I got the sound of the KY.
Is it really just a question of volumen?
I have not measured the levels.
Have you had any experience in this regard?
Best regards
Erik
P.S. Thanks a lot for bringing these wonderfull chips to our attention.
What is the cause of these differences?
Hi all,
What would cause these different chips to sound so different?
Is it power supply rejection ratio's or something else?
To those that are testing these various chips:
1. Is the chip power supply well decoupled? I have found that larger caps on pin 1 can make a big difference to the sound of the chip (I am using PCM63K).
2. Do you have 50R resistors on the outputs of the digital filter?
3. Have you reclocked the data, clock and word prior to it's entry to the PCM63?
Hi all,
What would cause these different chips to sound so different?
Is it power supply rejection ratio's or something else?
To those that are testing these various chips:
1. Is the chip power supply well decoupled? I have found that larger caps on pin 1 can make a big difference to the sound of the chip (I am using PCM63K).
2. Do you have 50R resistors on the outputs of the digital filter?
3. Have you reclocked the data, clock and word prior to it's entry to the PCM63?
Pcm63p-ky & -y
Hi Eric,
Excellent that you managed to get some new PCM63P-Y chips from Yamaha (!!). For me - THE best sounding PCM in the CD (16/44) domain. Enjoy!
To your question: From what I heard & compared in few different DACs, there has always been a small difference between Y and KY.
There have been a lot ongoing here (in the PCM63 threads) concerning this topic. My personal experiance always showed me that, firstly, each PCM63P selection-grade sounds different. Also please note that differences arises not only when comparing the chips as a typical group (K to K2 to KY to Y) but also inside-a-certain grade. Take KYs for example: Each chip can sound slightly different, at least to a certain degree. However, the character of the chip (KY in our case) will not be changed.
Critical listening showed me that differences between the Ys themselves can be significant. Therefore, I suggest that you'll try to listen to the Ys which you have (if you have more then 2 pics) and then choose the best possible pair(s). Then do the same (match great pair(s)) with the KYs.
Now once you are done, you might find that there IS indeed characteristic sound-difference between the KYs and the Ys. I ASSUME that it is not a matter of volume. I should have noticed such a possibility (
).
Eric, I'll be very happy to hear your report after matching and eveluating the chips as described above, if possible for you to do.
Greetings!
Hi Eric,
Excellent that you managed to get some new PCM63P-Y chips from Yamaha (!!). For me - THE best sounding PCM in the CD (16/44) domain. Enjoy!
To your question: From what I heard & compared in few different DACs, there has always been a small difference between Y and KY.
There have been a lot ongoing here (in the PCM63 threads) concerning this topic. My personal experiance always showed me that, firstly, each PCM63P selection-grade sounds different. Also please note that differences arises not only when comparing the chips as a typical group (K to K2 to KY to Y) but also inside-a-certain grade. Take KYs for example: Each chip can sound slightly different, at least to a certain degree. However, the character of the chip (KY in our case) will not be changed.
Critical listening showed me that differences between the Ys themselves can be significant. Therefore, I suggest that you'll try to listen to the Ys which you have (if you have more then 2 pics) and then choose the best possible pair(s). Then do the same (match great pair(s)) with the KYs.
Now once you are done, you might find that there IS indeed characteristic sound-difference between the KYs and the Ys. I ASSUME that it is not a matter of volume. I should have noticed such a possibility (
).Eric, I'll be very happy to hear your report after matching and eveluating the chips as described above, if possible for you to do.
Greetings!
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