Radian 5208C Coax Specs
Specs for the Radian 5208C coaxial:
Fs - 73.3
QMS- 12.6
VAS- .54 cu ft 15.29118 liter
Cms- .03828276 in / lb
MMS - 0.744197 ounces 21.1 grams
RMS - 1.738285 lbd / sec
Xmax - 0.039 inches .9906 mm
SD - 34.39999 sq. in 221.935 sq cm
QTS - .45
Sens - 93 db
QES - 0.46
RE - 6.5 ohm
LE = 0.75
Imp - 8 ohm
BL - 11.69
A 17.06 liter box tuned to 62.8 cycles with a 4" diam port 1.62" long will give you an F3 of 64.9 cycles.
These are really sweet, the compression driver sounds excellent. It is the same as the 465PB
Specs for the Radian 5208C coaxial:
Fs - 73.3
QMS- 12.6
VAS- .54 cu ft 15.29118 liter
Cms- .03828276 in / lb
MMS - 0.744197 ounces 21.1 grams
RMS - 1.738285 lbd / sec
Xmax - 0.039 inches .9906 mm
SD - 34.39999 sq. in 221.935 sq cm
QTS - .45
Sens - 93 db
QES - 0.46
RE - 6.5 ohm
LE = 0.75
Imp - 8 ohm
BL - 11.69
A 17.06 liter box tuned to 62.8 cycles with a 4" diam port 1.62" long will give you an F3 of 64.9 cycles.
These are really sweet, the compression driver sounds excellent. It is the same as the 465PB
Attachments
Just a couple of comments here-
I don't see how the the coaxial configuration causes any frequency anomalies.First,the horn throat in the center of the magnet is about 30 degrees to the cone profile of about 75 degrees,I don't see the cone coming into that much play as a horn.Second,with a 96-98 dB 15" driver,the cone doesn't move far enough at sane listening levels to modulate the HF,although this may be a trouble spot with an 8" driver.Most midrange problems I see with 15" drivers is cone breakup.This can be solved with a simple notch filter(as is done with the SI's).
OB's may be the solution to the woodworking problem.Simple flat board with a hole and some legs.Could be as simple as a piece of MDF or a premade cutting board with a hole in it! Look at the Hawthorne Audio members gallery for ideas.The baffle for 15's doesn't have to be as big as the baffles for the smaller 8's.Seems like 18" wide is the size for 15's.I've seen 24" baffles plus wings for the smaller speakers.
May want to save your money on those pro amps! I power my 96dB SI's with a 8 wpc Charlize amp and they will BLOW you out of the house!!! One guy on the SI forum took his to a warehouse and powered them with a 300 watt pro amp.He says he couldn't turn it all the way up and stay in the warehouse! Maybe some smaller amps and some good processers?
I read somewhere that the new Hemp drivers are Radian drivers with hemp cones(can't remember where).
Steve
I don't see how the the coaxial configuration causes any frequency anomalies.First,the horn throat in the center of the magnet is about 30 degrees to the cone profile of about 75 degrees,I don't see the cone coming into that much play as a horn.Second,with a 96-98 dB 15" driver,the cone doesn't move far enough at sane listening levels to modulate the HF,although this may be a trouble spot with an 8" driver.Most midrange problems I see with 15" drivers is cone breakup.This can be solved with a simple notch filter(as is done with the SI's).
OB's may be the solution to the woodworking problem.Simple flat board with a hole and some legs.Could be as simple as a piece of MDF or a premade cutting board with a hole in it! Look at the Hawthorne Audio members gallery for ideas.The baffle for 15's doesn't have to be as big as the baffles for the smaller 8's.Seems like 18" wide is the size for 15's.I've seen 24" baffles plus wings for the smaller speakers.
May want to save your money on those pro amps! I power my 96dB SI's with a 8 wpc Charlize amp and they will BLOW you out of the house!!! One guy on the SI forum took his to a warehouse and powered them with a 300 watt pro amp.He says he couldn't turn it all the way up and stay in the warehouse! Maybe some smaller amps and some good processers?
I read somewhere that the new Hemp drivers are Radian drivers with hemp cones(can't remember where).
Steve
Re: Re: Re: Radian 5215B coaxials?
Interesting thought. I discounted Radian as OEM when I first caught wind of these things for two reasons. First, the price. At the time, the Radians were selling in the US for ~$600 a pair, and Cantare's price of 600EUR/pr put those speakers at the equivalent of USD525/pr. (With current relative currency values, it makes more sense to think they might be Radians than it did ca. 2002.) Since DIY audio is in general significantly more expensive in Germany than in the US (even excluding the 16+% VAT built in to their prices) that made Radian seem unlikely to me. Also, I had never seen that cast basket with blisters on the ribs from Radian, though certainly an OEM order could specify different parts. Still, my best guess is that the Cantare driver is a made-to-order variant of a stock coax from an Asian firm such as P. Audio. I single out P-Audio because I've seen similar baskets on some of their stuff, and do not recall having seen them elsewhere.
With a good sub, the B&C 8NDL51 would be a lot of fun under a dynamic coax...
Depends on where you are, I guess. At first, I got lucky and bought a pair of speakers off of eBay from someone local who turned out to be quite a woodworker. (Les has a gallery at Audio Asylum.) You could look at DIY projects on the internet in your area and see who's doing what. Or search on the internet for woodworkers in your area who post their projects. Kitchen cabinet shops often employ skilled woodworkers who may be interested in a different kind of project. Or even on occasion car audio shops.
I think it would be a very good idea for you to seek out some sort of similar speaker. Other examples would be the bigger KEFs (or even the little ones, to get a feel for the dynamic limits of 5.25-6.5" coaxes) or the Gradient Revolutions. Surely there's a hifi dealer around you with some decent speakers!
Low end response or not, they will buy you headroom before distortion from the woofer motion sets in. If the low-end response of the Radians was adequate for you, that low end response with more headroom should be fine, too.
It is audible, and measurable. I've measured it on both the 8" and the 12" Duals, run full-range with music containing lots of bass. (I believe the track I used was "On the Run" for DSOTM. On the 8's with an 80Hz crossover, it can be an issue. On the 12's with same, I've not found it one. Some people like to deny that flaws exist in things they prefer. I've always found that approach not only annoying but also counterproductive.
Mine aren't the very newest models, but the previous generation. Still the modern style, with separate ceramic magnets and Tulip waveguides. Two pairs (CPA-12, a stage monitor with a 12" Dual; a pair of 2046 8" drivers as used in the System 800 studio monitor, i8AW indoor-outdoor speaker, and CMS8 in-wall in custom cabinetry) I bought locally. Others (a pair of System 8 NFMII's, a Saturn S8iw that uses the same driver as previous, a pair of i8AW's, and a single System 12 DMT II.) I narrowly missed upgrading by front mains from the System 8 NFMII's to System 10 DMT II's through eBay last week. I'm pondering those CPA-15's currently on eBay, but don't have much need for 15" drivers when my subwoofers are only a medium-throw Tannoy 18 (model 4505) in one system and a JBL W15GTi in the other. If I had space for a more dynamic system from top to bottom, I'd be all over them...
Just keep your eyes open. For instance in the last year J. Gordon Holt's five System 10 DMT II's were on Audiogon. Look at your local Craigslist. And so on. It took me about 14 months to put together two multichannel nearly systems with Tannoy drivers.
And keep the cabinets/crossovers in case you want to resell any of them later. The newer ones sell much better as systems than as drive units.
Good that you didn't buy them. They were overpriced by at least double. However, what I'd do with 3836's is put them in very high-Q sealed enclosures. Then I'd design the baffle such that the high-Q rise coincides with the baffle step, giving flat response through the midbass and down to 70-80Hz. Perfect for subwoofer integration, and with the benefit of nearly no woofer excursion in the midbass for ear-splitting SPL. Dan Wiggins and Dr. David Hyre used that kind of alignment to good effect on the Adire HE10.1, except ported for (superfluous, IMO) extra extension.
BHTX said:Hrmmmm...Could it beeee...RADIAN?!?!
I obviously can't read anything on those pages, and the response graphs are too tiny. But from what I can make out, they still look much better than many of the other coaxials out there, and somewhat resemble the graphs in the Radian PDF's, without all the ridiculous smoothing.
Interesting thought. I discounted Radian as OEM when I first caught wind of these things for two reasons. First, the price. At the time, the Radians were selling in the US for ~$600 a pair, and Cantare's price of 600EUR/pr put those speakers at the equivalent of USD525/pr. (With current relative currency values, it makes more sense to think they might be Radians than it did ca. 2002.) Since DIY audio is in general significantly more expensive in Germany than in the US (even excluding the 16+% VAT built in to their prices) that made Radian seem unlikely to me. Also, I had never seen that cast basket with blisters on the ribs from Radian, though certainly an OEM order could specify different parts. Still, my best guess is that the Cantare driver is a made-to-order variant of a stock coax from an Asian firm such as P. Audio. I single out P-Audio because I've seen similar baskets on some of their stuff, and do not recall having seen them elsewhere.
BHTX said:Yeah well, that's one of several reasons why I was mainly looking at the 15" Radian 5215B.
With a good sub, the B&C 8NDL51 would be a lot of fun under a dynamic coax...
BHTX said:
Depends on where you are, I guess. At first, I got lucky and bought a pair of speakers off of eBay from someone local who turned out to be quite a woodworker. (Les has a gallery at Audio Asylum.) You could look at DIY projects on the internet in your area and see who's doing what. Or search on the internet for woodworkers in your area who post their projects. Kitchen cabinet shops often employ skilled woodworkers who may be interested in a different kind of project. Or even on occasion car audio shops.
BHTX said:
I think it would be a very good idea for you to seek out some sort of similar speaker. Other examples would be the bigger KEFs (or even the little ones, to get a feel for the dynamic limits of 5.25-6.5" coaxes) or the Gradient Revolutions. Surely there's a hifi dealer around you with some decent speakers!
BHTX said:
Low end response or not, they will buy you headroom before distortion from the woofer motion sets in. If the low-end response of the Radians was adequate for you, that low end response with more headroom should be fine, too.
BHTX said:
It is audible, and measurable. I've measured it on both the 8" and the 12" Duals, run full-range with music containing lots of bass. (I believe the track I used was "On the Run" for DSOTM. On the 8's with an 80Hz crossover, it can be an issue. On the 12's with same, I've not found it one. Some people like to deny that flaws exist in things they prefer. I've always found that approach not only annoying but also counterproductive.
BHTX said:
Mine aren't the very newest models, but the previous generation. Still the modern style, with separate ceramic magnets and Tulip waveguides. Two pairs (CPA-12, a stage monitor with a 12" Dual; a pair of 2046 8" drivers as used in the System 800 studio monitor, i8AW indoor-outdoor speaker, and CMS8 in-wall in custom cabinetry) I bought locally. Others (a pair of System 8 NFMII's, a Saturn S8iw that uses the same driver as previous, a pair of i8AW's, and a single System 12 DMT II.) I narrowly missed upgrading by front mains from the System 8 NFMII's to System 10 DMT II's through eBay last week. I'm pondering those CPA-15's currently on eBay, but don't have much need for 15" drivers when my subwoofers are only a medium-throw Tannoy 18 (model 4505) in one system and a JBL W15GTi in the other. If I had space for a more dynamic system from top to bottom, I'd be all over them...
BHTX said:
Just keep your eyes open. For instance in the last year J. Gordon Holt's five System 10 DMT II's were on Audiogon. Look at your local Craigslist. And so on. It took me about 14 months to put together two multichannel nearly systems with Tannoy drivers.
And keep the cabinets/crossovers in case you want to resell any of them later. The newer ones sell much better as systems than as drive units.
BHTX said:There's a pair of Tannoy 3836 15's on eBay atm for $1000. I've simply modeled them in WinISD with the specs provided on the ebay listing, and I think I like what I see. I suspect they'd mate very well with a powerful subwoofer too. Main difference between these Tannoys and most of the other dual concentrics from pro audio manufacturers is, of course, a much lower FS...which certainly helps. On the other hand, WinISD suggests a 8.720 cubic foot enclosure for .71 Qtc.
..I was open to the possibility of doing something like that with subwoofers, but NOT with my mains! Nearly 9 cubic feet? That's pretty big.
Good that you didn't buy them. They were overpriced by at least double. However, what I'd do with 3836's is put them in very high-Q sealed enclosures. Then I'd design the baffle such that the high-Q rise coincides with the baffle step, giving flat response through the midbass and down to 70-80Hz. Perfect for subwoofer integration, and with the benefit of nearly no woofer excursion in the midbass for ear-splitting SPL. Dan Wiggins and Dr. David Hyre used that kind of alignment to good effect on the Adire HE10.1, except ported for (superfluous, IMO) extra extension.
Hi Brandin have you done/found out anymore on what coaxials you might be leaning towards.Also the Cantare's look very much like PAudio 12cxa.http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/
Hi lazenna,
I'm definitely eager to see what Hawthorne Audio will have in store within the next few months or so, regarding their future Sterling Silver Iris OB driver. As previously mentioned, this dual concentric driver will be somewhat similar to the current Silver Iris, but will utilize a Radian compression tweeter. Therefore, I'm guessing it'll probably cross over to the woofer at a much lower frequency than the current Silver Iris, with its cheaper Eminence tweeter. That said, I'm hoping it will eliminiate a lot of break-up and other negatives as a result, as well as the simple fact of using one of the very well regarded Radian compression drivers. As a side note, Darrel has mentioned that they will also release many other products in the future as well, although I don't have any indication as to how long that'll be from now, or what the specific products will be. As for now, the Sterling does exist, and is supposedly being tested and fiddled with in regards to the crossover that will be used. These drivers and crossovers should be released some time this fall I think. I'm guessing October or sooner maybe? Meanwhile, I have a lot of equipment to sell, and other things to accomplish before the Sterlings arrive. Honestly, however, even with the Radian compression tweeter...I'd still most likely be more insterested in a 10" or similar dual concentric driver, rather than a 15". It's my understanding, though, that they will also sell the Radian compression tweeter and xover as a separate upgrade to current products, including the 10" Silver Iris. So, I guess we'll just have to see what happens. I'm not holding my breath here, but my expectations are pretty high, and I think it'll turn out to be a good product at a fair price, regardless. And as far as actual construction goes for a first-time builder like me, I don't think it can get much easier than open baffle!
Also, I think OB bass would be a very interesting experience, to say the least. If all goes well with the above mentioned Sterling Silver Iris from Hawthorne.. I'd most likely attempt to implement my 4 Ascendant Audio Avalanche AVA15 subwoofers into the setup, forgetting about the plans of building a large low tuned enclosure, though. Instead, I'd probably just put them in some kind of a sealed push-pull config, two per enclosure, and with EQ or some kind of LT, and strictly use them below 35 Hz or so, so that by the time it got down to around 30Hz, the subwoofers would be in full-effect, with not much output coming from the Hawthorne woofers. This way, I'd have the nice tight accurate bass that OB supposedly provides (as I have yet to ever experience it, so I can't comment much on that), but still be able to have the great low-end response that enclosures can provide at extremely low frequencies. With 4 15" subwoofers with 27mm xmax each, I don't suspect obtaining an in-room response as far down as the mid to low teens or lower would be much of a problem.
Sounds like a plan to me...
I seriously hope it turns out this way, as I'm tired of going in circles here.
I'm definitely eager to see what Hawthorne Audio will have in store within the next few months or so, regarding their future Sterling Silver Iris OB driver. As previously mentioned, this dual concentric driver will be somewhat similar to the current Silver Iris, but will utilize a Radian compression tweeter. Therefore, I'm guessing it'll probably cross over to the woofer at a much lower frequency than the current Silver Iris, with its cheaper Eminence tweeter. That said, I'm hoping it will eliminiate a lot of break-up and other negatives as a result, as well as the simple fact of using one of the very well regarded Radian compression drivers. As a side note, Darrel has mentioned that they will also release many other products in the future as well, although I don't have any indication as to how long that'll be from now, or what the specific products will be. As for now, the Sterling does exist, and is supposedly being tested and fiddled with in regards to the crossover that will be used. These drivers and crossovers should be released some time this fall I think. I'm guessing October or sooner maybe? Meanwhile, I have a lot of equipment to sell, and other things to accomplish before the Sterlings arrive. Honestly, however, even with the Radian compression tweeter...I'd still most likely be more insterested in a 10" or similar dual concentric driver, rather than a 15". It's my understanding, though, that they will also sell the Radian compression tweeter and xover as a separate upgrade to current products, including the 10" Silver Iris. So, I guess we'll just have to see what happens. I'm not holding my breath here, but my expectations are pretty high, and I think it'll turn out to be a good product at a fair price, regardless. And as far as actual construction goes for a first-time builder like me, I don't think it can get much easier than open baffle!
Also, I think OB bass would be a very interesting experience, to say the least. If all goes well with the above mentioned Sterling Silver Iris from Hawthorne.. I'd most likely attempt to implement my 4 Ascendant Audio Avalanche AVA15 subwoofers into the setup, forgetting about the plans of building a large low tuned enclosure, though. Instead, I'd probably just put them in some kind of a sealed push-pull config, two per enclosure, and with EQ or some kind of LT, and strictly use them below 35 Hz or so, so that by the time it got down to around 30Hz, the subwoofers would be in full-effect, with not much output coming from the Hawthorne woofers. This way, I'd have the nice tight accurate bass that OB supposedly provides (as I have yet to ever experience it, so I can't comment much on that), but still be able to have the great low-end response that enclosures can provide at extremely low frequencies. With 4 15" subwoofers with 27mm xmax each, I don't suspect obtaining an in-room response as far down as the mid to low teens or lower would be much of a problem.
Sounds like a plan to me...I seriously hope it turns out this way, as I'm tired of going in circles here.
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