I thought it was "good." ..Sort of a tip o' the hat to its creator, with a jazzy, ~Chuck Mangione vibe, yet with orchestral overtones, all in one... technically innovative, but not aesthetically pleasing, I guess.
At any rate, I think the world needs this design. I think this is a very good thing. I also think the 108Sig is the star of the entire Fostex line, with the 168 following close behind. And they sound fabulous with the little TA2024 T-chip. Ultra smooth, clear, punchy as hell.
At any rate, I think the world needs this design. I think this is a very good thing. I also think the 108Sig is the star of the entire Fostex line, with the 168 following close behind. And they sound fabulous with the little TA2024 T-chip. Ultra smooth, clear, punchy as hell.
rdf said:
That system is based on the JX92S. I have not heard it. I do however have a sub/sat system in my office that uses the JX92S in sealed boxes. They sound incredibly good at low levels. I might mention that I got a big improvement in the sound when I started running the satellites through a highpass filter to match the lowpass on the sub. I don't know whether the improvement was simply due to a better match-up at the crossover or whether it was because it reduced IM distortion due to reduced cone excursion on the satellites. I suspect the latter. When they were running "fullrange", I could see quite a lot of cone movement, even though the calculated F3 was 80Hz.
Nagaoka Swan
Does anyone here have any experience using the Fostex 108 in the Nagaoka D-101 "Swan" cabinet? http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYRH8.html
The length is 2450 mm” (96.46”) and the mouth circumference is 1190 mm (46.85").
Or a Klang & Ton CT164? http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYRH5.html
Does anyone here have any experience using the Fostex 108 in the Nagaoka D-101 "Swan" cabinet? http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYRH8.html
The length is 2450 mm” (96.46”) and the mouth circumference is 1190 mm (46.85").
Or a Klang & Ton CT164? http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYRH5.html
Dlugel - rhymes with "flugel"
IINM, Mr Schillng's design is "loosely based" on the original MKI - shorter in stature, with the rear mouth almost full height. Several of Tom Z's horn designs also have larger final flare, but mostly front mouth.
planet10 said:
Ed's horn actually has a bigger mouth than the B-Horn.
Guys, lets find aother name for the new oneI'm not even sure how to pronounce that one.
dave
IINM, Mr Schillng's design is "loosely based" on the original MKI - shorter in stature, with the rear mouth almost full height. Several of Tom Z's horn designs also have larger final flare, but mostly front mouth.
ct164
Yes, I have built the CT164 Horns years ago. They were always great fun. At the moment they are at the attic, i'm more into clarity now. They can provide you with a kind of liveliness that's unusual and put out a solid bass that nobody would believe i'ts just the FE103 Sigma playing. Though that last octave is lacking somewhat. Cons: they're not pretty, I never liked the appearance especially, and ruler flat response is not the terrain of these horns.
Yes, I have built the CT164 Horns years ago. They were always great fun. At the moment they are at the attic, i'm more into clarity now. They can provide you with a kind of liveliness that's unusual and put out a solid bass that nobody would believe i'ts just the FE103 Sigma playing. Though that last octave is lacking somewhat. Cons: they're not pretty, I never liked the appearance especially, and ruler flat response is not the terrain of these horns.
Hello again,
Im sorry i havent replied and thanked earlier - for some reason ive suddenly stopped receiving email notifications of replies (I was disappointed that id had no further replies!)
Earlier someone suggested valve amps. This is something ive considered, although i have no experience of valve amps.
I should have mentioned my existing amp - an audiolab q / p combination.
(CD - arcam delta 250 + bb500 / Vinyl - rega p3 + passlabs pre)
I know this is really the wrong section of the forum to ask, (and even possibly the wrong forum all together) but any recommendations of commercial amps of a similar second-hand value of the audiolabs would certainly be interested. As i say, i know nothing of valve gear.
Floorstanding speakers vs bookshelf -
A lot of the other posts on the forum seem to suggest bookshelf when space or price constraints are mentioned, but are there truly good bookshelves, or are they all compromised? All the speakers mentioned so far have been floorstanding.
Due to current room constraints, the speakers will have to fit to the room to some extent, rather then the other way arround, so bookshelves may well be more convenient for me, but i certainly wouldn't want to go this route if it really meant too much compromise.
Im not in position of megabucks, but again, i don't want to force compromise for the sake of a few quid either. Basically im quite keen on it sounding good ; )
Any further comments would certianly be appreciated.
Thankyou, Julian
Im sorry i havent replied and thanked earlier - for some reason ive suddenly stopped receiving email notifications of replies (I was disappointed that id had no further replies!)
Earlier someone suggested valve amps. This is something ive considered, although i have no experience of valve amps.
I should have mentioned my existing amp - an audiolab q / p combination.
(CD - arcam delta 250 + bb500 / Vinyl - rega p3 + passlabs pre)
I know this is really the wrong section of the forum to ask, (and even possibly the wrong forum all together) but any recommendations of commercial amps of a similar second-hand value of the audiolabs would certainly be interested. As i say, i know nothing of valve gear.
Floorstanding speakers vs bookshelf -
A lot of the other posts on the forum seem to suggest bookshelf when space or price constraints are mentioned, but are there truly good bookshelves, or are they all compromised? All the speakers mentioned so far have been floorstanding.
Due to current room constraints, the speakers will have to fit to the room to some extent, rather then the other way arround, so bookshelves may well be more convenient for me, but i certainly wouldn't want to go this route if it really meant too much compromise.
Im not in position of megabucks, but again, i don't want to force compromise for the sake of a few quid either. Basically im quite keen on it sounding good ; )
Any further comments would certianly be appreciated.
Thankyou, Julian
Of course there are good bookshelf speakers. It all depends on what you will expect. A thundering bass is not so common in bookshelf speaker land, if you know what i mean. Any other thing... there's no limit.
Take the speakers depicted in the attachment, for example. Pico Lino - they make alot of fun, even bass. 50 Hz cutoff, not so bad. If you feel you need more (yes you will, don't you? ) -- add a sub or so.
Take the speakers depicted in the attachment, for example. Pico Lino - they make alot of fun, even bass. 50 Hz cutoff, not so bad. If you feel you need more (yes you will, don't you?
) -- add a sub or so.Attachments
Those Pico Lino certainly look attractive.
Ive found the components for sale here -
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/picolino_en.htm
- but not yet found very much other informaiton in english.
Searching here dosnt give many hits either.
Ive been doing a lot of reading tonight, and yeah, comming arrond to the idea of changing my amps as well. I may as well do the whole lot a the same time, and try and get things matched nicely.
Julian
Ive found the components for sale here -
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index_en.htm?/hifi/picolino_en.htm
- but not yet found very much other informaiton in english.
Searching here dosnt give many hits either.
Ive been doing a lot of reading tonight, and yeah, comming arrond to the idea of changing my amps as well. I may as well do the whole lot a the same time, and try and get things matched nicely.
Julian
Yes there you can get the parts. I can send you plans but I think I can't put them here due to copyright restrictions. Anyway I think private distribution should be ok because the issue of Hobby Hifi is sold out.
I would advise to invest in new speakers now if you want something new. How about something like this: http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/v_kolibri.htm, (Edit: sorry no fullrange, we're in the FR forum...) and save the money on the amp except you are really unsatisfied with some aspect of the sound of the amps, but you could compensate for that with the speakers to some degree.
I would advise to invest in new speakers now if you want something new. How about something like this: http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/v_kolibri.htm, (Edit: sorry no fullrange, we're in the FR forum...) and save the money on the amp except you are really unsatisfied with some aspect of the sound of the amps, but you could compensate for that with the speakers to some degree.
As for saying on the amp, id only end up paying about the same as what id get 2nd hand for the audiolabs on a new amp anyway, so itlld be a horizantle shift, rather then an investment of more funds.
The 2nd speaker youve recommended i can find even less information on! I did eventually find the cutting guide to the Pico Lino online somwhere, and a couple of user comments.
It would be nice to go for a relativly well supported design. I even considered the proac 2.5 clone, just as its so recommended, but i fear that may well offend my neighbours more then others ; )
Cheers, Julian
The 2nd speaker youve recommended i can find even less information on! I did eventually find the cutting guide to the Pico Lino online somwhere, and a couple of user comments.
It would be nice to go for a relativly well supported design. I even considered the proac 2.5 clone, just as its so recommended, but i fear that may well offend my neighbours more then others ; )
Cheers, Julian
That looks like a nice speaker too, no doubt. What dou you mean by well supported? It seems there always has to be some brand name or something in it... Remember, in the end, you have to hear for yourself.
But somehow I understand. I read that magazine and that's a support in a way. We just have to get rid of that brand name thinking, that's my opinion. Like ooh a grand slam hyper shiny for just 83% of the price... yeah...
But somehow I understand. I read that magazine and that's a support in a way. We just have to get rid of that brand name thinking, that's my opinion. Like ooh a grand slam hyper shiny for just 83% of the price... yeah...
Brand name is no problem at all to me.
By 'well supported' i really meen a number of users, who share comments, so im not just choosing on the specifications themselves, but more on what real listeners think of them.
Yeah, id totally rather just hear a pair myself, and make up my own mind, but thats not allways possible, so then i have to go on other peoples comments.
If a speaker does not have a user base, i am simply choosing on the numbers and graps that i see on a website. Id rather choose from wide recommendation.
Julian
By 'well supported' i really meen a number of users, who share comments, so im not just choosing on the specifications themselves, but more on what real listeners think of them.
Yeah, id totally rather just hear a pair myself, and make up my own mind, but thats not allways possible, so then i have to go on other peoples comments.
If a speaker does not have a user base, i am simply choosing on the numbers and graps that i see on a website. Id rather choose from wide recommendation.
Julian
Hi Julian.
Chrisb touched on it earlier, and I'll bring it up again: If you plan to do most/all of your listening at low levels, you might want to consider shaping your frequency response to compensate for the transfer function of human hearing (check out the equal loudness contours below). At low levels, our bass and treble hearing acuity drops off faster than the midrange.
I believe this has been part of the appeal of B*se products--they emphasize midbass and treble, so they sound full at low levels, if only artificially so.
Others have recommended SETs for low-level listening, and I'd heartily agree--more because of their comparatively high output impedance than any nuances of clarity. All else being equal, raising output impedance emphasizes bass and treble by reducing damping and inductive rolloff.
If you don't want to spring for an SET, you might want to experiment with adding series resistance to your SS amp--that will accomplish similar response shaping.
Of course, you could always try an LCR response-shaping network, too, to bring down the midrange.
Bill
Chrisb touched on it earlier, and I'll bring it up again: If you plan to do most/all of your listening at low levels, you might want to consider shaping your frequency response to compensate for the transfer function of human hearing (check out the equal loudness contours below). At low levels, our bass and treble hearing acuity drops off faster than the midrange.
I believe this has been part of the appeal of B*se products--they emphasize midbass and treble, so they sound full at low levels, if only artificially so.
Others have recommended SETs for low-level listening, and I'd heartily agree--more because of their comparatively high output impedance than any nuances of clarity. All else being equal, raising output impedance emphasizes bass and treble by reducing damping and inductive rolloff.
If you don't want to spring for an SET, you might want to experiment with adding series resistance to your SS amp--that will accomplish similar response shaping.
Of course, you could always try an LCR response-shaping network, too, to bring down the midrange.
Bill
Attachments
julian said:
These would fit that definition (which I like
), of 'well supported': FT-1600 MkII; uses a FE167E in a Mass-Loaded TL. Nice for low to mid level listening, just don’t get too loud. Even better with a vacuum tube phase plug! DIY plans, flats, or assembled. http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/
The Horns; small for floor standers (30" x 6” x 11.5")
$775 with Modified 108E sigma drivers.
thehornshoppe@juno.com
robert
DIY?
I think it's fair to say anyone who has heard a properly balanced system with Ed's Horns would agree on the musicality and bang for buck, and probably concur with his assertions as to the magic achievable with only 4"
... but
In the indefatigable spirit of DIY, there are any number of small horn and MLTL/TQWP designs in public domain (including those on Brines' site) that can offer a ton o'fun for the DIYer for only the relatively low cost of the Fostex drivers and a sheet or 2 of materials (well braced plywood please, not MDF/PB)
And since this thread started with:
just how loud do we need to go?
Below a certain level, room interactions & total system "spicing" become far more important factors than the threshold of pain performance.
For those needing an occassional dose of sonic flagellation,
there's always the local strip bar.
serenechaos said:
These would fit that definition (which I like
FT-1600 MkII; uses a FE167E in a Mass-Loaded TL. Nice for low to mid level listening, just don’t get too loud. Even better with a vacuum tube phase plug! DIY plans, flats, or assembled. http://www.geocities.com/rbrines1/
The Horns; small for floor standers (30" x 6” x 11.5")
$775 with Modified 108E sigma drivers.
thehornshoppe@juno.com
robert
I think it's fair to say anyone who has heard a properly balanced system with Ed's Horns would agree on the musicality and bang for buck, and probably concur with his assertions as to the magic achievable with only 4"
... butIn the indefatigable spirit of DIY, there are any number of small horn and MLTL/TQWP designs in public domain (including those on Brines' site) that can offer a ton o'fun for the DIYer for only the relatively low cost of the Fostex drivers and a sheet or 2 of materials (well braced plywood please, not MDF/PB)
And since this thread started with:
just how loud do we need to go?
Below a certain level, room interactions & total system "spicing" become far more important factors than the threshold of pain performance.
For those needing an occassional dose of sonic flagellation,
there's always the local strip bar.
Hello,
I recently made a set of speaker based on the requirement you laid out - clarity at low volume levels. I live in Tokyo and the walls here are wafer-thin, so I had to come up with a set of speaker that I could enjoy without disturbing the neighbours. In addition, these speakers would be used in the tatami-room, so they had to be small and present a decent soundstage when you are sitting on the floor. The WAF-factor also came into account here, it is the Tatami-room after all, so I had to make them look good. They should also be able to back-up as front speakers in my home cinema system, whether I use the projector or TV.
Now, with these requirements I made a bass-reflex system based on the Fostex FE107. I created a slim box and used a PVC-pipe to create an internal volume. The space between the pipe and the box was filled with fine-grain sand to absorb any vibrations. I am not sure how much this will contribute to the actual sound, but I can definitely say it was worth the effort, because I can draw great pleasure simply by rapping a knuckle on the speaker and point out to anyone who is close-by, that the speaker is indeed filled with sand ("See? It is completely dead, like a concrete wall!").
The box is tuned to 88kHz, and there is therefore no real bass to speak of, but I find that the speaker works very well for the design intent I had. I am not saying it lacks bass, I does have it, but it is just not the thing you would go for to play rock, it is more suitable for more mellow listening. Furthermore, the soundstage is quite narrow, there is a definite sweet-spot that would render it less suitable in a home cinema setup, but I usually watch movies alone, so this is not an issue for me.
This was only my second project so I cannot place this speaker in reference to something else, nor do I have any equipment to measure its output, but I think the FE107 would work well for what you are trying to achieve.
Best of luck!
I recently made a set of speaker based on the requirement you laid out - clarity at low volume levels. I live in Tokyo and the walls here are wafer-thin, so I had to come up with a set of speaker that I could enjoy without disturbing the neighbours. In addition, these speakers would be used in the tatami-room, so they had to be small and present a decent soundstage when you are sitting on the floor. The WAF-factor also came into account here, it is the Tatami-room after all, so I had to make them look good. They should also be able to back-up as front speakers in my home cinema system, whether I use the projector or TV.
Now, with these requirements I made a bass-reflex system based on the Fostex FE107. I created a slim box and used a PVC-pipe to create an internal volume. The space between the pipe and the box was filled with fine-grain sand to absorb any vibrations. I am not sure how much this will contribute to the actual sound, but I can definitely say it was worth the effort, because I can draw great pleasure simply by rapping a knuckle on the speaker and point out to anyone who is close-by, that the speaker is indeed filled with sand ("See? It is completely dead, like a concrete wall!").
The box is tuned to 88kHz, and there is therefore no real bass to speak of, but I find that the speaker works very well for the design intent I had. I am not saying it lacks bass, I does have it, but it is just not the thing you would go for to play rock, it is more suitable for more mellow listening. Furthermore, the soundstage is quite narrow, there is a definite sweet-spot that would render it less suitable in a home cinema setup, but I usually watch movies alone, so this is not an issue for me.
This was only my second project so I cannot place this speaker in reference to something else, nor do I have any equipment to measure its output, but I think the FE107 would work well for what you are trying to achieve.
Best of luck!
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