mach1 said:
Those that prattle on about this trendy marketing buzzword called PRAT drive me nuts. In an orchestra isn`t PRAT entirely under the auspices of the Conductor? In a smaller band it is often the drummer`s job or the foot of the individual musician.
What you say about LF loudspeaker `overhang` (I would use other words to describe this phenomenon) is certainly true, but to deliberately distort the temporal dynamic characteristic of the power amplifier to correct for a loudspeaker shortcoming to better reproduce acoustic impulse power is to me bad engineering approach and merely a band aid solution to a problem which is a bad loudspeaker driver.
Seems to me such a `PRAT `compensated` amplifier should only then be used with crappy, defficient speakers to sound its best.
I was composing a similar answer in my head before I read your post. All I'll say is I'm in agreement.rcavictim said:Those that prattle on about this trendy marketing buzzword called PRAT drive me nuts. In an orchestra isn`t PRAT entirely under the auspices of the Conductor? In a smaller band it is often the drummer`s job or the foot of the individual musician.
What you say about LF loudspeaker `overhang` (I would use other words to describe this phenomenon) is certainly true, but to deliberately distort the temporal dynamic characteristic of the power amplifier to correct for a loudspeaker shortcoming to better reproduce acoustic impulse power is to me bad engineering approach and merely a band aid solution to a problem which is a bad loudspeaker driver.
Seems to me such a `PRAT `compensated` amplifier should only then be used with crappy, defficient speakers to sound its best.
The MJ sectioned filter works very well in every instance I've tried it.
Since the 1KR was dropping the voltage down too much, I went and replaced the 1KR with another 220R, so it is now 270uF/220R/270uF/220R. I then started messing with the Filament.
Seems t be the fix, but on my next pre, I will try smaller caps (either 47uF or 100uF) with a few more stages as you say.
Best to leave what I have as is if sound is good...
One one level yes. But it's more about the temporal interplay between musicians than the performance of one individual. In African American music (and derivatives thereof), merely having a good drummer does not guarantee stellar results - you need a good rhythm SECTION (and also lead musicians I would venture). There are many amps / systems which (to my ears and those of many others) are simply incapable of adequately reproducing this sense of rhythmic interplay. To some this is the essence of the music, and without adequate reproduction of these cues, the music simply fails to 'gel'.
PRAT is merely a descriptive term coined to help faciltitate explanation of some of the above. If it brings on apoplexy I am not sure how to respond as I am not a psychologist.
BTW, I had no idea idea the term was trendy - I think it was coined in the late 70's. Maybe it has gone full circle?
mach1 said:
The term does not initiate apoplexy but is annoying to me as are other expressions that I simply group together as limp wristed .
If the musical reproduction system was itself a musical intrument than the concept of PRAT would make more sense but it is not a musical instrument. In fact it is supposed to be completely transparent, neither adding, nor taking away anything from the original performance if the concept behind true high-fidelity is to be believed and accepted.
I will accept your term more willingly if you modify it slightly to read `Prat n Whitney`. I have a fine metal punch manufactured by that firm which has seen service in the construction of fine audio reproduction apparatus.
Guys, throughout history people have developed special vocabularies to suit their special needs. Obviously, those vocabularies will be neither meaningful nor useful to everyone, but that does not imply that they are meaningless and useless to everyone. Not having a sense of what the term 'prat' means or how it might be used to express oneself is hardly an indictment of the term itself.
In one of his books, Tom Robbins suggests that weather should be either celebrated or ignored. What he means is that bitching about bad weather is worse than a waste of time and energy, it is actually counterproductive; it makes it difficult to enjoy anything else. I might suggest a similar idea here: either study the ideas (and vocabulary) of others in the interest of learning, or simply ignore them. Grumbling about how others express themselves doesn't do anybody any good and just puts you in a bad mood. Why bother?
-- Dave
In one of his books, Tom Robbins suggests that weather should be either celebrated or ignored. What he means is that bitching about bad weather is worse than a waste of time and energy, it is actually counterproductive; it makes it difficult to enjoy anything else. I might suggest a similar idea here: either study the ideas (and vocabulary) of others in the interest of learning, or simply ignore them. Grumbling about how others express themselves doesn't do anybody any good and just puts you in a bad mood. Why bother?
-- Dave
Wow, has this thread gone off topic or what?
From plate voltage to large smoothing caps to polyrhythmic music to PRAT to David Lee Roth.
All we need now is for someone throw in a lawn-chair reference so we can get back on topic.
BTW: I really had to look PRAT up tho...
English term, primarily used in United Kingdom. The literal meaning is "bottom" or "rump"; aka backside, buttocks, sacrum, tail end. This lends itself to the slang meaning of "***," or "clueless person of arrogant stupidity." It is not always directly translatable to American slang.
Duh...
From plate voltage to large smoothing caps to polyrhythmic music to PRAT to David Lee Roth.
All we need now is for someone throw in a lawn-chair reference so we can get back on topic.
BTW: I really had to look PRAT up tho...
English term, primarily used in United Kingdom. The literal meaning is "bottom" or "rump"; aka backside, buttocks, sacrum, tail end. This lends itself to the slang meaning of "***," or "clueless person of arrogant stupidity." It is not always directly translatable to American slang.
Duh...
Well just so no-one wants to paint me with sinister intent my use of PRAT in my post regarding Rock Legend D.L. Roth did in fact refer to Pace, Rythm And Timing, and certainly not the newly discovered English slang definition kindly provided by john65b, of which I was also unaware.
FYI, a sequentially clocked series array of many gated capacitors can in fact be used to `slow the music down `. Such a device has been made commercially, small enough in fact that it can fit inside the tubing of an aluminum lawn chair.
FYI, a sequentially clocked series array of many gated capacitors can in fact be used to `slow the music down `. Such a device has been made commercially, small enough in fact that it can fit inside the tubing of an aluminum lawn chair.
They don't HAVE it , they are able to preserve it. If they couldn't musicians wouldn't use it. Period.
An interesting phenomenon at a large outside gig - as you walk further away from the stack, the playing of a band can appear looser (ie their sense of rhyhtmic interplay appears to suffer). This is due to the increased ratio of reflected sound which contains a delay directly proportional to the distance of the path to your ear.
mach1 said:
Some people think this is a conspiracy orchestrated deliberately so that patrons will pay more for the seats closer to the stage.
Actually it is a much more complicated mechanism than that. In addition to the confusing ear brain messages of multipath echo return there is the direct line of sight through air layers of different temperature where the velocity of sound is different in each layer. The size and distribution of these temperature zones is not uniform, nor are they geometrically stable in size or location. This leads to varying frequency dependent comb filtering when summed at the listener`s ear. In extreme cases, where the echo, which also suffers from this phenomenon is mostly absent, it sounds just like multipath fade on a distant radio station, a form of the `flanging` effect deliberately created in recording studios. Add to this the simple mean group delay of the audio package as it propagates at ~1100 FPS further from the speaker stack. At a distance the drummer will be heard to beat a drum when the visual reference shows his drumstick high in the air. Talk about confusing signals to the brain. It is remarkable that a concert goer survives such an experience without suffering long lasting chronic health effects, even dizziness or apoplexy.
To assist clarity in discussing these phenomena, perhaps we should label any forces that are enemies of PRAT as prattle?
`This venue suffers badly from prattle`, or `I`m terribly sorry, I cannot comprehend a word you are saying because of all this prattle`. `My amplifier has this kind`a rattle which manifests itself as a form of prattle`.
Anything that can interfere with PRAT sounds pretty serious to me and we haven`t even discussed traffic signals where a loss of PRAT could lead to the loss of many lives.
I think this diatribe deserves a good PRAT on the back from a masseuse.
OK, I admit there is absolutely no difference between amplifiers (or any other component in the chain) in their ability to accurately convey the rhythmic interplay between musicians. The whole idea was a complete fabrication.
For my next great hoax, I might suggest that amplifiers have differing tonal qualities.
Sarcasm invariably doesn't work with me.
Never said amplifiers didn't sound different, though much less than people give them credit for. PRAT strikes me as a Linn/Naim marketing myth that's grown and perpetuated itself. In the 50+ tube amp designs I've built in the last few years, both my own and other people's, I've never once heard PRAT. Met several (and they're unlikely to get any flange) though.
As for PA amps. I have 4 different brands sitting here now. They all sound a bit different, but that's to be expected considering I'm using them in their most non linear region at a couple of watts for 1kW amps and this is where different AB topologies make themselve most apparent.
Never said amplifiers didn't sound different, though much less than people give them credit for. PRAT strikes me as a Linn/Naim marketing myth that's grown and perpetuated itself. In the 50+ tube amp designs I've built in the last few years, both my own and other people's, I've never once heard PRAT. Met several (and they're unlikely to get any flange) though.
As for PA amps. I have 4 different brands sitting here now. They all sound a bit different, but that's to be expected considering I'm using them in their most non linear region at a couple of watts for 1kW amps and this is where different AB topologies make themselve most apparent.
Brett,
The problem is that I (and others) do discern a difference in this area. I have absolutely no problem that you don't. But to insinuate that what I perceive is purely a phsyco-acoustic outcome of skilful marketing hype is a bit hard to stomach. Even Mr conservative, Stan Curtis (QUAD, Cambridge, much Rotel consultancy work) was a believer in optimising psus to preserve rhythmic integrity.
I don't and have never owned or sold Linn/naim gear. I much prefer to build my own.
The problem is that I (and others) do discern a difference in this area. I have absolutely no problem that you don't. But to insinuate that what I perceive is purely a phsyco-acoustic outcome of skilful marketing hype is a bit hard to stomach. Even Mr conservative, Stan Curtis (QUAD, Cambridge, much Rotel consultancy work) was a believer in optimising psus to preserve rhythmic integrity.
I don't and have never owned or sold Linn/naim gear. I much prefer to build my own.
John65b
PRAT, as original used on this post stands for Pace, Rhythm and Timing. As you may have surmised this apparently harmless little acronym is capable of starting world wars.
There are those that claim that some audio components (amps are often cited) are better than others at preserving the PRAT inherent in some forms of music (ie its rhythmic integrity).
In the other camp are those that claim there is no inherent difference between components in their ability to accurately reproduce rhythmic information, and that the effect is purely a physco-acoustic one induced by marketing hype (ie people expect to hear it, therefore they hear it).
There is a third possibility that only some are sensitive to this phenomenon.
PRAT, as original used on this post stands for Pace, Rhythm and Timing. As you may have surmised this apparently harmless little acronym is capable of starting world wars.
There are those that claim that some audio components (amps are often cited) are better than others at preserving the PRAT inherent in some forms of music (ie its rhythmic integrity).
In the other camp are those that claim there is no inherent difference between components in their ability to accurately reproduce rhythmic information, and that the effect is purely a physco-acoustic one induced by marketing hype (ie people expect to hear it, therefore they hear it).
There is a third possibility that only some are sensitive to this phenomenon.
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