rob80b said:
Well, I experienced bottoming out at very moderate volume, not even close to "floor-shaking" volume, and irrespective of the amp used (various big and smaller Rotels, Krell KAv300, Kav400xi, Classe, Sansui etc). And it was always the same - when music consist less dynasmic, and/or was less well recorded - it seems everything OK, but in good records, broader dynamic - the sound was always a bit "constipated" and "calling" for turning up the pot; after doing so, the next dynamic peak made the bottoming which sometimes was really scarring.
Now, the sound is more relaxed, I can turn pot up (for example from "10 o'clock" to 12 or so.
And I realized (again) how really good speaker is 1.3mk2.
Sorry I got this thread started, and the only reason was I heard that from someone else, and myself I didn't know anything about it. My 17W75LQ's are well over 10 years old in my system and never had I experienced this problem. Someone was asking me about where I capped off my 17W75LQ and that was news to me He was surprised cause he heard I ran mine full range. I'm wondering how much change really is mine compared to today's model?
dynaudio 17W75 drivers
Hello,
Looks that Dynaudio 17W75 drivers are not among the best. I have a system in which I use two 17W75XL-12s (12 ohm) per channel driven from a separate amp via acive crossover. Mid (Audax 130CO from 620Hz) and high (dynaudio d260 from 4.5kHz) frequencies are handled by another amp and crossed passively by a first order crossover. 17Ws are at the botom and the top with mid and high in between. Box has over 40mm front, sides and back are over 32mm. All are a combibation of layers of mid-high density chipboard and plywood. Box is closed but I plan to add a variovent.
The 17Ws when driven hard bottom out sooner than they should although not so terribly. At normal to mid listenning levels they are OK. However, the main problem I have with these drivers is that when driven hard they begin to loose their transparency.
The bottoming can be practically eliminated by using second order acive crossover at about 120-150Hz. Anyway that where my active subs are to take over. Originally these were to be Peerles 30cm woofers, which I bought for that purpose and got the chipboard cut but then I decided to go for something like Rhytmik Audio servo subs.
The anoying thing, however, remains as at high volume levels 17W75XLs begin to loose transparency. They are still not bad but nowhere near the clarity of Dynaudio 21w54 which up to 150W RMS stayed clean (in my system was crossed at 800Hz) with my old PA (150W rms into 8ohm) - linear preamp volume to the max.
As my boxes are very well build it is likely that one day I will go for much better drivers than 17W75xls. I could then use 17W75s in my audio-visual surround system. I even looked at some potential replacements such as phl 15ohm drivers but I do not know how good they are. Problem is that there are not many 12-15ohm high quality drivers on the market. Any idea for best replacements for 17W75s?
cheers,
Hello,
Looks that Dynaudio 17W75 drivers are not among the best. I have a system in which I use two 17W75XL-12s (12 ohm) per channel driven from a separate amp via acive crossover. Mid (Audax 130CO from 620Hz) and high (dynaudio d260 from 4.5kHz) frequencies are handled by another amp and crossed passively by a first order crossover. 17Ws are at the botom and the top with mid and high in between. Box has over 40mm front, sides and back are over 32mm. All are a combibation of layers of mid-high density chipboard and plywood. Box is closed but I plan to add a variovent.
The 17Ws when driven hard bottom out sooner than they should although not so terribly. At normal to mid listenning levels they are OK. However, the main problem I have with these drivers is that when driven hard they begin to loose their transparency.
The bottoming can be practically eliminated by using second order acive crossover at about 120-150Hz. Anyway that where my active subs are to take over. Originally these were to be Peerles 30cm woofers, which I bought for that purpose and got the chipboard cut but then I decided to go for something like Rhytmik Audio servo subs.
The anoying thing, however, remains as at high volume levels 17W75XLs begin to loose transparency. They are still not bad but nowhere near the clarity of Dynaudio 21w54 which up to 150W RMS stayed clean (in my system was crossed at 800Hz) with my old PA (150W rms into 8ohm) - linear preamp volume to the max.
As my boxes are very well build it is likely that one day I will go for much better drivers than 17W75xls. I could then use 17W75s in my audio-visual surround system. I even looked at some potential replacements such as phl 15ohm drivers but I do not know how good they are. Problem is that there are not many 12-15ohm high quality drivers on the market. Any idea for best replacements for 17W75s?
cheers,
speedemon said:
Well, as I noted above, I really can not state the old replaced driver is really 17WLQ since it has different code and no any extension. But, the new one is surelly 17W75LQ, the 4 ohms variant, and it is said that this model has no problem, although both of them have Kapton former and XL magnet (probably pure neodimium or ferrite/neodimium hybrid as is for the 1.3SE version)
It is difficult to answer your question about old and newer drivers, but I can say from my experience from the factory tour, there's no "old" and "new" model when it has the same code number - if the driver is different, than it has another code. The terms Esotec, Esotar etc. are reflecting the production tolerance of the drivers.
For more knowledgable people (I'm not so experienced), the pdf data can be seen here:
http://www.gattiweb.com/images/dynaudio/17wLQ_data.pdf
Hey Guys, not to get way off the subject. A couple of us got together at a friend of a friend’s home last night to check out his system that they were high raving about. Let me first tell you, I’m not one to go out and pop anyone’s bubble as I respect what they have as like everyone one else they worked hard for what they have. Any how I heard so much about this system where he’s running a Thiel CS3.6 loudspeaker system powered by a couple of BEL 1001 MkV amps running as mono blocks with an Audible Illusions preamp. I was blown away on how bad the Thiel’s sounded as you talk about bottom out. I almost had to put my hands out just to catch the drivers on this speaker. We played a cut off of the George Duke – Illusions CD, cut #6 “The Simple Things” and the speaker kept bottom out on the bass notes. Now I am not familiar with the Thiel line at all. I have heard of them. But I prefer a dynamic system and the Thiel’s I heard in the past was not one of them. But beings that the bottoming issue not only applies here on the 17W75LQ’s, but I’m sure there are a lot out there in the market that has problem producing a good dynamic bass at a higher level. This seems maybe a common problem with a lot of speakers that is driven hard without a larger woofer helping it.
That's correct, but here we're talking about poping and bottoming out at very moderate listening level (at least it is considered for mine Dynaudio 1.3mk2). Otherwise, it is true that any reasonably small mid/bass driver can be taken to the point of bottoming, that's expected.
Even the new drivers which I replaced sometimes can be heard to bottom out, but the level of that point is far above the previous drivers.
eradoncic said:
Yea, what I heard on the Thiel's was not even near a moderate level. I was just blown that it didn't have the capability to produce much bass period. I was disappointed they they built the hype on the Thiel with this system and I was let down. There are some pretty small speakers out there that can produce pretty good bass. A few years ago when I was at the CES show, I heard a speaker call "System Audio" from Denmark. I was totally blown away on how good they sound by their size and price. I don't know if their still around, but that was one of the better bangs for the buck.
Just curious what you heard when they bottomed out, the first time I experienced it on my 1.3MKII’s I was listening to some jazz by Dave Holland “Prime Detective” ,track #6 I believe, everything was so clean and then there was this loud clap (pop, crack) in time to the music I thought it was part of the music. Then the exact same clap (pop) showed up in piece by Stravinsky and I knew then it was not part of the music. On Kraftwerk’s Tour de France album it showed up a few times.
Replaying the tracks over again the pops would always show up in the exact same spots and was related to dynamics, fast deep bass generated electronically or acoustically.
At that point I made sure I crossed them over with my Velodyne and not run them full range, At 54 I do listen loud but not that loud.
Replaying the tracks over again the pops would always show up in the exact same spots and was related to dynamics, fast deep bass generated electronically or acoustically.
At that point I made sure I crossed them over with my Velodyne and not run them full range, At 54 I do listen loud but not that loud.
eradoncic said:
What we have to keep in mind though is that we are dealing with a ported design, bass reflex speakers rarely bottom out but will start to sound congested.
Prior to using the Dyn’s I had my Celestion SL6S’s out rigged with the SL700 drivers and these could driven quite loud but would compress the music and not have the fluid openness which I feel Dynaudio has achieved.
And there lies the problem, the Dyn’s are so clean at higher listening levels that we may not realize at what volume we actually got them at until “WHACK”.
From what I understand Eradonic you had it originally happen at lower volumes although now I read that it is happening again but at a higher volume with the new drivers.
Have you given the new drivers enough break-in time, Dynaudio says around 200 hours or so?
rob80b said:
You're correct - the new drivers have not yet complited their break-in time, but only say 70-100 hours, approximatelly. But once I tried and cranked up the volume pot, and yes - they bottomed, but it was far better than prevous. I can not confirm now, until next visiting, since the particular pair is in my second place and here where I'm living I'm listening the famous Confidence C1, which is another league.
My above statement is based mainly from the experience with the 1.3SE model which I also have had for some two years, and which have different mid/bass driver (I don't remmeber the exact model, but I was said those are using hybrid (neodimium/ferrite) magnet system and capable for extra long excursions) - and I experienced several time the bottoming.
To be honest, it was at really insane listening level, but again - that proves your assumption the drivers are primarly made not to compress as a primary goal, even if it is sometimes achieved at the expense of botoming. So, we are at the start point - probably some series of drivers (in my case the "original" unspecified driver) are less good than others, although the should be from the upper product lines (e.g Esotec).
Follow up
Post Script!
Thought I’d try running my Contour 1.3MKII’s full range again after having them crossed over with the Velodyne for one year.
As I mentioned in an earlier post the Contours would bottom out, producing a load pop, which sounded like a handclap if not crossed over.
I’m running them off a late version Bryston BST, Bryston BP25P and a Teac VRDS-20.
My concern was the ill affects on the signal running two sets of six foot interconnect tied into the Velodyne crossover.
Well this evening I once again tried running them full range to no ill effect, previously on the same source material they would pop at 10 o’clock but I’ve been able to get them up to 12 and still no pop, after that they would be way too loud so need to go any higher.
Now I acquired these second hand from a conservative listener so even though they were a few years old they may still not have been fully broken in if they had been listened to at moderate levels all that time.
My listening is much more demanding and I have liberal use of the volume control.
So my point is after complaining about my Dyn’s bottoming out the problem appears to have disappeared.
Post Script!
Thought I’d try running my Contour 1.3MKII’s full range again after having them crossed over with the Velodyne for one year.
As I mentioned in an earlier post the Contours would bottom out, producing a load pop, which sounded like a handclap if not crossed over.
I’m running them off a late version Bryston BST, Bryston BP25P and a Teac VRDS-20.
My concern was the ill affects on the signal running two sets of six foot interconnect tied into the Velodyne crossover.
Well this evening I once again tried running them full range to no ill effect, previously on the same source material they would pop at 10 o’clock but I’ve been able to get them up to 12 and still no pop, after that they would be way too loud so need to go any higher.
Now I acquired these second hand from a conservative listener so even though they were a few years old they may still not have been fully broken in if they had been listened to at moderate levels all that time.
My listening is much more demanding and I have liberal use of the volume control.
So my point is after complaining about my Dyn’s bottoming out the problem appears to have disappeared.
Hi!
I do not speak well I ask your indulgence in English, for this.
I bought now not for a long time single Audience 52SE hangradiating one,and I experienced it sadly that suffers from bottoming out.
I read rob80b his remark,that stopped it for him the hangradiating this problem,after he broke it in.
It would be my question how I have a chance of it,that this mistake ceases for me,you are under guarantee rather let me ask a correction?
I hope for it I managed to formulate it understandably.
Thanks for the answers!
Peace
I do not speak well I ask your indulgence in English, for this.
I bought now not for a long time single Audience 52SE hangradiating one,and I experienced it sadly that suffers from bottoming out.
I read rob80b his remark,that stopped it for him the hangradiating this problem,after he broke it in.
It would be my question how I have a chance of it,that this mistake ceases for me,you are under guarantee rather let me ask a correction?
I hope for it I managed to formulate it understandably.
Thanks for the answers!
Peace
PPS . Well this is a few years down the road, the 1.3MKII's had the problem resurface, but have been relegated as rear surrounds and new drivers are finally on their way as I'll run them full range, also doing the tweeters at the same time so more or less they'll be a new speaker.
They've been replaced by a pair of Special 25 Limited Edition which IMHO are absolutely an amazing speaker top to bottom.
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