well if the effects are measurable then it is certainly an interesting subject to study.
i suppose it may introduce a jitter of sorts.
well dynamics are a ratio of peak to average
peak is more a function of direct energy
average is more a function of reflected energy ( as room reverberation tends to average energy in time )
therefore peak to average ratio is a function of directivity
I just had to pitch in on this because some of it really contradicts my experience.
First of all, I think introducing distortion is far less productive than introducing more power to the given load. I'm sure their ears will start to distort at the right levels.
With the same drivers, I could improve the waterfall characteristics and they would measure the same effeciency, but sound like they were less effecient. I could play them much louder without getting irritated, and I also get to hear more background detail.Second, the more dead the listening room, the more non-linear distortion is audible. I discovered this when I moved a pair of speakers to a recording studio. The nonlinearity in the BL curve causes this, and is particularly audible in the mid frequencies, especially when listening to vocals and long note timbre. This is not significantly audible in live rooms, that is true.
This time you apparently didn't notice, "Same for the tweeter."
The point was that any limits on dynamics are not due to the format of being a dipole.
The reason why more effecient speakers may seem more dynamic is because they are operating more in the linear range of the BL curve of the driver. the peaks are not flattened. This is also why some amplifiers may measure pretty bad in distortion terms, because they may be nonlinear in a way that compensates the BL curve.
I am curious, what is the temperature rise you measure during music playing? And what kind of music?
Admittedly I can't exactly pin down in a lot of cases what it is that a lot of speakers are doing at high volumes. Like I had always thought it was an internal compressor on some of the active monitors (some cases it is) or the drivers themselves starting to compress. You are saying there is some kind of real time thermal induced distortions though? And it can be these type of distortions that can corrupt dynamics?
There is a gross oversimplification of a complex problem.
Your "truth"s somehow always end up being wrong.
I didn't correllate the data to the actual temperature. I used noise, not music.
I believe that this is exactly the case, but there are also the diffraction effects that take place at higher SPLs. Both effects become more pronounced - "audible" - at the higher levels.
One of the things that really becomes apparent with my designs is the incredible sound levels that can be achieved without any fatigue on the listeners part. Its actually quite scarry and as some customers have found problematic. You find yourself listening at very high levels simply because it doesn't "hurt" anymore. But the neighbors and other family members aren't as pleased as you might be.
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This time you apparently didn't notice, "Same for the tweeter."
Yes John I would have to agree that theoretically the format is not a limitation in this regard. However, the costs to effect the same performance will likely be very dependent on the format. Thats a big factor to me, but I know its not to a lot of people around here.
I expected more than that.
Some more detail in either experience or technical aspects?Recently, I sent noise through amplifier consistently, not very loud, and the amplifier heats up much more than it does playing music loud. So I really can't see thermal compression being a problem in the home environment. I do agree that it will be a problem in PA application.
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I think you are way off base here. If I have to design a dipole that will have high efficiency/sensitivity from 100 Hz up, frankly it's a no brainer. I say 100 Hz because I think most would agree than any sense of dynamics is coming from above 100 Hz, probably a lot higher.
Looking past that, about transient thermal compression, I think there should be easy ways to observe that by simple impulse testing. For example, start with a single impulse and make consecutive test, each time doubling the magnitude of the pulse. Then compare the measured impulse, it should double in amplitude and the FFT of the impulse should show the same frequency response with level increased nominally by 6dB. Next, since a single impulse would not reveal effects of lagging thermal response, make the same type of measurements but instead of a single impulse run a series of 2,3, 5,....N pulses closely spaced and look to see if there is any significant degradation between the first and last pulse as the level is increased. No degradation indicates no significant lagging thermal effects.
that can be adequately explained by total lack of high frequency output of your designs.
dial in some house curve and the effect will be even more pronounced.
why don't you try plopping http://www.e-speakers.com/-strse-403/TAD-ET-dsh-703/Detail.bok on top of your speaker and see if your listeners get fatigued.
I certainly get fatigued by "live" sounds such as nails on a chalkboard.
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Member
Joined 2003
Earl,
What is "wrong" about this statement? It seems reasonable that strong reflections in a lively room could mask/overwhelm at least some non-linear distortion products.
Instead of "high efficiency design" i would have said "design that prioritizes SPL over everything else"
because in case of Geddes speakers it definitely does seem that the last octave is being traded for SPL. which is an excellent tradeoff for people with hearing loss - but for those who haven't had much hearing loss yet it is a good way to get there
in fairness to you Geddes i think your speakers would be optimal for a LOT of people as far as listening to music goes.
unfortunately for you High-End speakers aren't bought to listen to music. they're bought for bragging rights.
an average audiophile who has probably 90% of his hearing gone would probably enjoy a compression tweeter like ones in your speakers more than lets say a diamond accuton tweeter which has abysmal efficiency and 19mm voice coil. But what's more exciting - to tell your guests that your tweeters are made out of diamond or that they're made out of plastic because titanium wasn't "worth the extra cost"
if selling speakers was only about getting the science right i would be doing that myself. actually i wouldn't because i don't fancy competing with Genelec, JBL Pro, EAW etc.
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High efficiency designs lead to hearing loss - that's just absurd. My system is level calibrated but I never listen to my Nathans at 0dB. More like -20dB.
Aging should be abolished because it leads to hearing loss
P.S. Borat, the trade-off is certainly not SPL. Just take a look at the specs for compression drivers.
Aging should be abolished because it leads to hearing loss
P.S. Borat, the trade-off is certainly not SPL. Just take a look at the specs for compression drivers.
Borat. Any proof of these claims? Any basis for these insults? And why the ill will?
well i didn't hear Geddes speakers but i do own JBL speakers of similar format ( large 2-way with 1.75" compression tweeter ). also this is a common format for PA speakers in many places where people go for drinks. i always wear earplugs when i am in places like that. but whenever i forget my earplugs at home i often think " thank god at least these speakers have no treble ". they seem to cut out just where the most annoying frequencies begin ( above 10 khz ).
as far as audiophiles. would you also deny that people buy Ferrari cars for the Ferrari name ? Nissan GTR is faster than most Ferraris with rear seats and at 1/4 the price. But for 90% of people who can afford a Ferrari even a Ferrari is too fast.
i wonder if i went on a car forum and said that cars aren't bought to get from A to B - would i get banned ?
getting from A to B is a goal only for a commercial truck or toyota prius. and playing music is a goal mostly for PA speakers which Geddes speakers tend to remind me of.
this is not to say that toyota prius is a bad car. it is a remarkable achievement and a great success. but i don't think you can specify the color of stitching on it - which makes it ( just like Nissan GTR ) not desirable for Ferrari owners.
this reminds me of a scene from a movie with DMX and Steven Seagal. DMX went to buy himself a yellow Lamborghini with a suitcase full of cash. DMX didn't know that the engine was in the back of the car but he liked the sound of the engine so he bough the car. I think his decision to buy that Lamborghini was about as well researched as most high-end speaker purchases are.
this is not to in any way imply that the posters on this forum are like that. just the average buyer of high-end audio products.
and who are we to judge people's lives ? i am sure many who buy state of the art speakers just for show are better people than i am.
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Responsible use is fine, but the capability to be abused is there. After all it was Earl's statement:
not mine. It is no more absurd than saying that high performance automobiles lead to increase personal injury. If you think that is absurd ask you insurance agent why rates for performance cars are significantly higher than typical autos.
It is not what the responsible user does, but what the irresponsible one does. And if there is no warning because "it doesn't hurt" then even the responsible user may find himself suffering unintended consequences.
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