I have done little more research now and I have found out that it´s impossible to find a cheap uhp-bulb that can be placed in the old uhp-reflector-module, they just don´t sell them. Not to mention that the uhp-bulbs can explode just by looking on them.
More interesting is that the price of different uhp-lamp-modules vary with over 2.5 times the cheapest lamp. This opens new opportunities, if you know the wattages, voltage and the shape of your old lamp, there are big chances that you can find a cheaper lamp-module and change the "reflector-lamp" and place that in the old plastic-cover. There are many projector-modules that use the same "uhp-lamp-reflector", they have only different platic-cover and then they charge 2 times the price for the same lamp, I think this is a damn bad way to fool people.
More interesting is that the price of different uhp-lamp-modules vary with over 2.5 times the cheapest lamp. This opens new opportunities, if you know the wattages, voltage and the shape of your old lamp, there are big chances that you can find a cheaper lamp-module and change the "reflector-lamp" and place that in the old plastic-cover. There are many projector-modules that use the same "uhp-lamp-reflector", they have only different platic-cover and then they charge 2 times the price for the same lamp, I think this is a damn bad way to fool people.
Here are my lastest thoughts about puting a HQI-lamp in a commercialprojector. The biggest problem with this is that a HQI-lamp is very big compared with a uhp-lamp and a big lamp with a large arc need a big reflector to use all the light from the lamp. The smallest lamp available to normal users is the HTI 150W lamp with an arc size of 4-5mm but it only last in 750h and is not so cheap and it´s still to big. To place a big HQI-lamp with a big reflector in a small commercialprojector is not so very easy (impossible) and if you make changes to the case it´s hard to sell the projector later if you want to do that.
I think the best solution is to use a separete lightbox with fans and use fiberoptics to led the light to the projector. In this way you can use what type of HQI-lamp you want and you don´t have to worry about the heat.
I have done some tests with fiberoptics and it works very good, but we need a thick fiber or many fibers because it´s hard to concentrate the light from a HQI-lamp to a small fiber.
I think the best solution is to use a separete lightbox with fans and use fiberoptics to led the light to the projector. In this way you can use what type of HQI-lamp you want and you don´t have to worry about the heat.
I have done some tests with fiberoptics and it works very good, but we need a thick fiber or many fibers because it´s hard to concentrate the light from a HQI-lamp to a small fiber.
Attachments
I forgot to mention what I mean with short focus positive lens on the lamp side. The incoming light must have smaller angles than 45 degrees from the fiber axle, otherwise the light will not follow the opticalfiber and you will lose a big part of the light. So the lens must have a focus length that is more than the half size of the lens or reflector size.
Attachments
This is an interesting idea Mathias.
I see no reason why it would not work in theory. I think fiberoptic cable would be to hard to work with unless they make it in large sizes. Because the angle of incedence of the light inside the tube is so high there can be high reflectance even for a white plastic tube. Yet it seems that it would be so much more efficient if you could get a highly reflective smooth surfaced flexible tube of around 20 - 30 mm size.
I have seen some white plastic tubing that is semi flexible but still hard enough to have a shiny surface finish used for some kinds of lab plumbing. I wonder if that would work.
Also because of the light loss it might be wise to oversize the light source but because it is in a seperate box it does not have to be so small. You could use a large cheap industrial 400 watt metal halide and a large reflector and a hand made large lens to focus the light into the optic tube guide.
The straighter the optic tube is the better as there is less light loss.
One other idea is to use electrical conduit and run some kind of lapping material through the inside to polish it up. Also, though it is expensive there is stainless steel tubing available and it could be polished on the inside to a high luster with a rotating lap turned with a drill.
Hezz
I see no reason why it would not work in theory. I think fiberoptic cable would be to hard to work with unless they make it in large sizes. Because the angle of incedence of the light inside the tube is so high there can be high reflectance even for a white plastic tube. Yet it seems that it would be so much more efficient if you could get a highly reflective smooth surfaced flexible tube of around 20 - 30 mm size.
I have seen some white plastic tubing that is semi flexible but still hard enough to have a shiny surface finish used for some kinds of lab plumbing. I wonder if that would work.
Also because of the light loss it might be wise to oversize the light source but because it is in a seperate box it does not have to be so small. You could use a large cheap industrial 400 watt metal halide and a large reflector and a hand made large lens to focus the light into the optic tube guide.
The straighter the optic tube is the better as there is less light loss.
One other idea is to use electrical conduit and run some kind of lapping material through the inside to polish it up. Also, though it is expensive there is stainless steel tubing available and it could be polished on the inside to a high luster with a rotating lap turned with a drill.
Hezz
mathias said:
I want to adapt an HQI lamp to my EPSON ELP-3000 projector (wich is equal to Infocus LP580).
The original lamp says it is Metal Halide 150W and 65V. Does anyone knows about commerial lamps with this characteristics, you can find many of them with 150W, but I never see on its specs that they where 65V (the ones I know use for example 90V).
If I get one matching the specs, Is it dangerous to power it from the original ballast? Or another 150W 65V doesn´t mean that the lamp can be equally powered?
Thanks
Hi!
I just read through this thread (again in a long time) and as I've been lately very active with my own projector retrofitting I think might have few things to add or to verify on these matters.
First of all the thing why I started to write this post was to criticize about the comments that projectors with 3 panels would produce more light compared to a 1 panel one, even 3x, that is not the true, the benefits of 3 panels lie in totally different things.
The brightness matter is pretty simple to explane. As the light for the three panels has to be splitted in three 1/3 bits (and the splitting is something that also definetly generates some light loss, in my projector it's been made with two mirrors that let light trough as well as mirror it, and also few regular mirrors), each panel gets at most the 1/3 of the initial lightengine output, and each panel has its own color filter, red, green and blue, and they effectively remove all other light but those mentioned. That means that of the 1/3 that has been directed for the one of the lcd's there will be something like 2/3 filtered out also in that point. I find it hard to believe this kind of stuff would then let trough significantly more light then a single panel setup lets. It might even be worse then 1 panel setup in that aspect.
Ok... so to the small benefits of the 3 panel setup that I can think of... well, the pixels do not consist of small 3 different colored parts as red, green and blue pixels can be projected over each other making the actual pixel really that color that its supposed to be... Hehe... that benefit is only useful if you look your movies at distance of 0,5m or something... ok... Other benefit would be that the cooling of the LCD's is easier as the do not heat up that much, the color filter is the reason for that, it filters out most of the unwanted stuff. And of course I'd guess the high resolution smaller than 1" grayscale panels are definetly lot cheaper the the color one for the same resolution and same size, this might even be the real reason for them to even exist...?
I've been discussing my project on several threads but I guess as this thread is all about what I am actually doing then it probably would be good to tell about my findings in the matter.
I have cheap 3 panel Sony projector (market price for a used one is something like 500e with a spare bulb...), the original light source was 120w UHP lamp, pretty much same kind that has been seen on this thread before. And as has been mentioned on this thread, retrofitting the projector so that it's in it's original case is very hard, it's almost impossible. I tried halogens first (that setup actually fitted inside the original case!!!!) but they were so hot and yellow that it was clear that they are not something that can be used in a projector retrofit, at least if the bulb is going to be somewhere where the original bulb was. I used the halogen with a diaprojectors lightengine setup (they beam out quite paraller light beam if the flame is positioned right, and work pretty well even if the flame is a bit off) and the 250w halogen broke all the lenses and burned the frame to coal... and yes, I had two 8cm fans blowing on full throttle all the time straight on the lamp and the optics, I even cut all the original case that was possible to cut away without the thingie fall apart to be able to try ways fo better airflow.
I got a 150w HSI-TD/NDL metalhalide bulb (same as HQI) and ballast about a month a go and have been experimenting with it since. TD means it's double ended one so it has quite a huge flame, but it does work! I've been using it with a BROKEN fat diaprojector condenser lens and the result is ok, original brightness of the projector was 500 ANSI lumens, I think with just the condenser lens (no reflector) I got something like 50-60% of that (comfortably visible in day time with dark curtains on windows (not totally light blocking ones)). I tried somewhat spherical soupladle behind it and other stuff as a reflector on multiple angles and got no visible gain in brightness... that is probably because of the huge flame (something like 10mm). Few days a go I bought another used diaprojector lightengine setup (as the halogens totally destroyed the first one) for 20 euros from one service center, I picked one that had a bigger reflector (so it should work better with the big flame of the MH bulb) and of course it has lenses that aren't broken and a UV-filter, and I get now a bit more better results, the image is something like 70% of the original brightness. I attached image of the setup with the bulb also in it's place. I am going to get single ended bulb with a smaller flame to take more advantage of the reflector later on (when I can afford it...).
I'll keep on experimenting with the bulb position and try how it works if I remove the last lense, and such stuff I can come up with, and keep you updated if I learn something worth telling.
Regards
HB
I just read through this thread (again in a long time) and as I've been lately very active with my own projector retrofitting I think might have few things to add or to verify on these matters.
First of all the thing why I started to write this post was to criticize about the comments that projectors with 3 panels would produce more light compared to a 1 panel one, even 3x, that is not the true, the benefits of 3 panels lie in totally different things.
The brightness matter is pretty simple to explane. As the light for the three panels has to be splitted in three 1/3 bits (and the splitting is something that also definetly generates some light loss, in my projector it's been made with two mirrors that let light trough as well as mirror it, and also few regular mirrors), each panel gets at most the 1/3 of the initial lightengine output, and each panel has its own color filter, red, green and blue, and they effectively remove all other light but those mentioned. That means that of the 1/3 that has been directed for the one of the lcd's there will be something like 2/3 filtered out also in that point. I find it hard to believe this kind of stuff would then let trough significantly more light then a single panel setup lets. It might even be worse then 1 panel setup in that aspect.
Ok... so to the small benefits of the 3 panel setup that I can think of... well, the pixels do not consist of small 3 different colored parts as red, green and blue pixels can be projected over each other making the actual pixel really that color that its supposed to be... Hehe... that benefit is only useful if you look your movies at distance of 0,5m or something... ok... Other benefit would be that the cooling of the LCD's is easier as the do not heat up that much, the color filter is the reason for that, it filters out most of the unwanted stuff. And of course I'd guess the high resolution smaller than 1" grayscale panels are definetly lot cheaper the the color one for the same resolution and same size, this might even be the real reason for them to even exist...?
I've been discussing my project on several threads but I guess as this thread is all about what I am actually doing then it probably would be good to tell about my findings in the matter.
I have cheap 3 panel Sony projector (market price for a used one is something like 500e with a spare bulb...), the original light source was 120w UHP lamp, pretty much same kind that has been seen on this thread before. And as has been mentioned on this thread, retrofitting the projector so that it's in it's original case is very hard, it's almost impossible. I tried halogens first (that setup actually fitted inside the original case!!!!) but they were so hot and yellow that it was clear that they are not something that can be used in a projector retrofit, at least if the bulb is going to be somewhere where the original bulb was. I used the halogen with a diaprojectors lightengine setup (they beam out quite paraller light beam if the flame is positioned right, and work pretty well even if the flame is a bit off) and the 250w halogen broke all the lenses and burned the frame to coal... and yes, I had two 8cm fans blowing on full throttle all the time straight on the lamp and the optics, I even cut all the original case that was possible to cut away without the thingie fall apart to be able to try ways fo better airflow.
I got a 150w HSI-TD/NDL metalhalide bulb (same as HQI) and ballast about a month a go and have been experimenting with it since. TD means it's double ended one so it has quite a huge flame, but it does work! I've been using it with a BROKEN fat diaprojector condenser lens and the result is ok, original brightness of the projector was 500 ANSI lumens, I think with just the condenser lens (no reflector) I got something like 50-60% of that (comfortably visible in day time with dark curtains on windows (not totally light blocking ones)). I tried somewhat spherical soupladle behind it and other stuff as a reflector on multiple angles and got no visible gain in brightness... that is probably because of the huge flame (something like 10mm). Few days a go I bought another used diaprojector lightengine setup (as the halogens totally destroyed the first one) for 20 euros from one service center, I picked one that had a bigger reflector (so it should work better with the big flame of the MH bulb) and of course it has lenses that aren't broken and a UV-filter, and I get now a bit more better results, the image is something like 70% of the original brightness. I attached image of the setup with the bulb also in it's place. I am going to get single ended bulb with a smaller flame to take more advantage of the reflector later on (when I can afford it...).
I'll keep on experimenting with the bulb position and try how it works if I remove the last lense, and such stuff I can come up with, and keep you updated if I learn something worth telling.
Regards
HB
Attachments
I did some testing with the lightengine...
When I first got the new diaprojector lightengine I didnt try it out of my projector, I just put it into the projector in a way that it worked. Today I took some of the projector apart for another reason but I also decided to research the light engine bit more.
First I tried it as it was, just testing how the position of the lamp affects the beam... well.. the thing seems to pretty much project image of the flame :B Position made it bigger and smaller... Then I took the second condenser lense (the thin last one in the setup) away and now the beam was much more even, although it still was a bit flame imageish but not that much, and actually it looked a lot more like the beam of the original UHP lamp. Then I tested the thing without the spherical reflector... not a difference to see with human eyes... I slipped the reflector back in its place and all that it did was that it added round thingies around the beam. I think I can't get any more light with this reflector, it should be bigger one and so on, just like mathias has told. The flame is just so big compared to the reflector that it just doesnt do anything, and the outer glass of the bulb is so big too that I cannot get the flame as close to the reflector for it to work well, and sadly, the outer glass is about the same size on those single ended bulbs too :\
I think that the best option, if we dont want to use big reflectors and bigger external light boxes and light guides and such, is to just use the light that comes straight forward from the lamp. It means that there is quite a big light loss but what can you do
Many people use 250w MHs on their projects, I use 150w one and with this method I get very well viewable resultss, ok to use even in daylight with somewhat thick curtains on, so I am pretty sure that a projector retrofitted with 250w MH using this method should get pretty good results, probably even a lot like with the original 120w UHP lamps.
Regards
HB
When I first got the new diaprojector lightengine I didnt try it out of my projector, I just put it into the projector in a way that it worked. Today I took some of the projector apart for another reason but I also decided to research the light engine bit more.
First I tried it as it was, just testing how the position of the lamp affects the beam... well.. the thing seems to pretty much project image of the flame :B Position made it bigger and smaller... Then I took the second condenser lense (the thin last one in the setup) away and now the beam was much more even, although it still was a bit flame imageish but not that much, and actually it looked a lot more like the beam of the original UHP lamp. Then I tested the thing without the spherical reflector... not a difference to see with human eyes... I slipped the reflector back in its place and all that it did was that it added round thingies around the beam. I think I can't get any more light with this reflector, it should be bigger one and so on, just like mathias has told. The flame is just so big compared to the reflector that it just doesnt do anything, and the outer glass of the bulb is so big too that I cannot get the flame as close to the reflector for it to work well, and sadly, the outer glass is about the same size on those single ended bulbs too :\
I think that the best option, if we dont want to use big reflectors and bigger external light boxes and light guides and such, is to just use the light that comes straight forward from the lamp. It means that there is quite a big light loss but what can you do
Many people use 250w MHs on their projects, I use 150w one and with this method I get very well viewable resultss, ok to use even in daylight with somewhat thick curtains on, so I am pretty sure that a projector retrofitted with 250w MH using this method should get pretty good results, probably even a lot like with the original 120w UHP lamps.
Regards
HB
don't know if i have to start a new thread...
btw i have no space and not knowledge to build a projector myself, so i'd like to modify a commercial projector.
the new panasonic AE700 has all the features that i need, but it's only 1000 ansi lumen.
i tried different projector in my home from 800 ansi to 3000 ansi, and when u see the difference u'll say "WOW" instead when u see the different cost u'll say "OUCH!"
So, this panasonic is amazing, and the price is affordable (~ 2000$), now i'd like to ask u if i'll buy this projector is there any chance to take 2/3000 ansi lumen from that (having 1000$ of budget)?
btw i have no space and not knowledge to build a projector myself, so i'd like to modify a commercial projector.
the new panasonic AE700 has all the features that i need, but it's only 1000 ansi lumen.
i tried different projector in my home from 800 ansi to 3000 ansi, and when u see the difference u'll say "WOW" instead when u see the different cost u'll say "OUCH!"
So, this panasonic is amazing, and the price is affordable (~ 2000$), now i'd like to ask u if i'll buy this projector is there any chance to take 2/3000 ansi lumen from that (having 1000$ of budget)?
Re: don't know if i have to start a new thread...
Um... I'd say pretty much NO... Maybe if you'd retrofit it with 1000+W MH halide it might be possible. Or maybe if some totally excellent engineer that has specialized in light sources might be able to do that with bulb that has less power, but then there has to be perfectly perfect optics that are perfect in a perfectly perfect way (read: EXPENSIVE and HIGH TECH). The projector loses easily 90% of the light in projector's optics. Your 1000 lumen projector is very likely to have a 15000-20000 lumen lightsource with perfect optics. 4 example my projector shooted 500 ANSI lumens with the original about 10000 lumen lightsource and it's perfect optics and now that I have self made cheap 11000 lumen lightsource the end result is something like 300-400 ANSI lumens The original lamp costs 400-500 euros, the retrofit one about 40 euros... that's the main reason to retrofit a projector that is over 500 ANSI. Of course some really old lousy ones with halogens and such crappy lightsources to begin with might be better after retrofitting.
Also I might add that most of the diy projects and retrofits on this forum are very very very very likely to be something like 1000 ANSI lumens maximum in the end, even those with 400w bulbs. So... if you want brighter than that (which is IMHO veeeeryyyy weird as 1000 ANSI lumens is so bright that you can have very very bright 60-80" image with thin curtains on bright day or with no curtains on cloudy day) then stick with the commercial projectors. Also... as I said its a bit weird not to be satisfied with 1000 ANSI lumens, I'd check if the optics on the 1000 ANSI lumen projector are covered with dust or some powersaving mode on or something making it dimmer then it should be :\
Regards
HB
denun said:
Um... I'd say pretty much NO... Maybe if you'd retrofit it with 1000+W MH halide it might be possible. Or maybe if some totally excellent engineer that has specialized in light sources might be able to do that with bulb that has less power, but then there has to be perfectly perfect optics that are perfect in a perfectly perfect way (read: EXPENSIVE and HIGH TECH). The projector loses easily 90% of the light in projector's optics. Your 1000 lumen projector is very likely to have a 15000-20000 lumen lightsource with perfect optics. 4 example my projector shooted 500 ANSI lumens with the original about 10000 lumen lightsource and it's perfect optics and now that I have self made cheap 11000 lumen lightsource the end result is something like 300-400 ANSI lumens
The original lamp costs 400-500 euros, the retrofit one about 40 euros... that's the main reason to retrofit a projector that is over 500 ANSI. Of course some really old lousy ones with halogens and such crappy lightsources to begin with might be better after retrofitting.Also I might add that most of the diy projects and retrofits on this forum are very very very very likely to be something like 1000 ANSI lumens maximum in the end, even those with 400w bulbs. So... if you want brighter than that (which is IMHO veeeeryyyy weird as 1000 ANSI lumens is so bright that you can have very very bright 60-80" image with thin curtains on bright day or with no curtains on cloudy day) then stick with the commercial projectors. Also... as I said its a bit weird not to be satisfied with 1000 ANSI lumens, I'd check if the optics on the 1000 ANSI lumen projector are covered with dust or some powersaving mode on or something making it dimmer then it should be :\
Regards
HB
More on Light Pipes
Has anyone given any more thought to this posibility (mathias, ace?)? I've researched and it doesnt seem impossible to build the illuminator for the fiber optic pipe. Here's the link to a diagram I found of what it sould look like.
www.lot-oriel.com/pdf_uk/all/light_fiber.pdf
Of course, I have 1/100th of the knowledge of optics you guys have so I might be oversimplifying things.
Light guides can be found on ebay for not that much money.
Any thoughts? Has the idea been dropped completely?
Has anyone given any more thought to this posibility (mathias, ace?)? I've researched and it doesnt seem impossible to build the illuminator for the fiber optic pipe. Here's the link to a diagram I found of what it sould look like.
www.lot-oriel.com/pdf_uk/all/light_fiber.pdf
Of course, I have 1/100th of the knowledge of optics you guys have so I might be oversimplifying things.
Light guides can be found on ebay for not that much money.
Any thoughts? Has the idea been dropped completely?
Surplus illuminators
http://www.labx.com/v2/newad.cfm?CatID=41&Page=2
Maybe we can retroffit one of these? Some go for $50 with a 150W Quartz-Halogen lamp.
http://www.labx.com/v2/newad.cfm?CatID=41&Page=2
Maybe we can retroffit one of these? Some go for $50 with a 150W Quartz-Halogen lamp.
Ahem....
If I may be so bold...
But...
I think that the theme of this thread misses one vital point...
Why DO people Build a DIY Projector?
Well let me put it this way...
About 3 years ago, I started learning to play Guitar...
Now... Why would I do That?
After all... I could just go out and BUY the works of the greatest Guitarists of all time for alot cheaper!
Do It Yourselfers/Engineers (like me) get a rush from researching, designing, and building. For the true DIYer/Engineer, there are no shortcuts.
And thats the name of THAT tune!
I just thought I would throw that one in...
Continue...
Economy ?
Yes, you have absolutely right, but buildning a DIY Projector the normal way, is a really expensive hobby in proportion to what you get today. The thing I am writing about in this thread is still DIY but in an other way.
As a true DIYer/Engineer, with limit economy, I can only say DIY-parts cost more money than everbody think and don´t forget the freight charge. My DIY-projector hobby have been resting a year now and holy **** what money I have saved. The sad truth about many DIY stuff, I can´t help it, it´s just the way it is.
Today a DLP-projector is so cheap and have so much better performance than a lcd DIY-projector. Why build something worse and more expensive, when you instead can modify a better performance dlp-projector with the stuff we DIYers really can do (the lightsource and lightengine) ?
Yes, you have absolutely right, but buildning a DIY Projector the normal way, is a really expensive hobby in proportion to what you get today. The thing I am writing about in this thread is still DIY but in an other way.
As a true DIYer/Engineer, with limit economy, I can only say DIY-parts cost more money than everbody think and don´t forget the freight charge. My DIY-projector hobby have been resting a year now and holy **** what money I have saved. The sad truth about many DIY stuff, I can´t help it, it´s just the way it is.
Today a DLP-projector is so cheap and have so much better performance than a lcd DIY-projector. Why build something worse and more expensive, when you instead can modify a better performance dlp-projector with the stuff we DIYers really can do (the lightsource and lightengine) ?
Newbie Question
Hi, I have been reading this thread with interest. I have recently acquired a 3M 8620 projector. The projector requires a 400W Metal Halide lamp. No new electronics are reqired, it is just a case of slotting a new lamp into the old ones place. However, the new lamps are still hugely expensive. Is there any reason why i can't buy a cheap metal halide bulb with similar specs from ebay or cheap retailer? Thanks in advance for any advice/information you may have.
Hi, I have been reading this thread with interest. I have recently acquired a 3M 8620 projector. The projector requires a 400W Metal Halide lamp. No new electronics are reqired, it is just a case of slotting a new lamp into the old ones place. However, the new lamps are still hugely expensive. Is there any reason why i can't buy a cheap metal halide bulb with similar specs from ebay or cheap retailer? Thanks in advance for any advice/information you may have.
For misopr and arnold the cat.
I searched a lot and realized that you cannot find cheap
lamps for projectors and it is also almost impossible to use
anything else.
The cheapest solution I found is to replace the lamp (usualy comes with the reflector), from
the lamp module and that only from:
http://www.mijnwinkel.nl/shop13342/productlist8/
Check the (lamp only) configurations, as these come at about
half the price of the unit.
misopr you must find the lamp unit.
I searched a lot and realized that you cannot find cheap
lamps for projectors and it is also almost impossible to use
anything else.
The cheapest solution I found is to replace the lamp (usualy comes with the reflector), from
the lamp module and that only from:
http://www.mijnwinkel.nl/shop13342/productlist8/
Check the (lamp only) configurations, as these come at about
half the price of the unit.
misopr you must find the lamp unit.
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