Hi,
Many posts reflect current knowledge and the ensuing chaos, according to the beliefs of each.
a table summarize the situation:
Some think that the problem of voltage drop does not exist.
Or, has an influence only on the peak power.
Or, can produce a distortion near the clips area.
others think it's a dirty SMPS system. (in part they are right, if you do not know the new technologies for audio)
Many do not know the relationship between the changes of timbre and the behavior of the amplifier according to the power supply.
I mean, when we hear that the timbre is not original, soft percussion in the case, what is this? How can we represent it / measure it? . sorry to say this, but we were the first to investigate this phenomenon, is now an official study, at two large universities. this phenomenon are linked other parameters, one is the increase of the ISP (spl), in fact, is in agreement with real drum's, which is capable of producing 110dB. (with amplifier, require 4kW).(obvious that in this case, the sound waves all start with the same phase)
So, if we continue to see the problem as a loss of peak power, is not important, some capacitors solve.
back on topic, what's the solution?
solution is a regulator with high efficiency, very fast, maybe not imagine how fast. this solution that I know well, unfortunately, has high costs and difficulties in feasibility, in the case of production qty. then let the best ways to make easy and safe to use.
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This is an old measure of 4R mosfet amp, well see voltage drop(528W @40Hz). this is my record of the response regulator. (only 1000uF at output)
One important: timbre is entirely different, very hard and dry already at 30w, and not at full power as you think.
Many posts reflect current knowledge and the ensuing chaos, according to the beliefs of each.
a table summarize the situation:
Some think that the problem of voltage drop does not exist.
Or, has an influence only on the peak power.
Or, can produce a distortion near the clips area.
others think it's a dirty SMPS system. (in part they are right, if you do not know the new technologies for audio)
Many do not know the relationship between the changes of timbre and the behavior of the amplifier according to the power supply.
I mean, when we hear that the timbre is not original, soft percussion in the case, what is this? How can we represent it / measure it? . sorry to say this, but we were the first to investigate this phenomenon, is now an official study, at two large universities. this phenomenon are linked other parameters, one is the increase of the ISP (spl), in fact, is in agreement with real drum's, which is capable of producing 110dB. (with amplifier, require 4kW).(obvious that in this case, the sound waves all start with the same phase)
So, if we continue to see the problem as a loss of peak power, is not important, some capacitors solve.
back on topic, what's the solution?
solution is a regulator with high efficiency, very fast, maybe not imagine how fast. this solution that I know well, unfortunately, has high costs and difficulties in feasibility, in the case of production qty. then let the best ways to make easy and safe to use.
--------------------------------------
This is an old measure of 4R mosfet amp, well see voltage drop(528W @40Hz). this is my record of the response regulator. (only 1000uF at output)
One important: timbre is entirely different, very hard and dry already at 30w, and not at full power as you think.
Attachments
But but.. what about the big bad inductor that says.. "Hmm.. I notice you want to change your current demand and I'm not going to let that happen just right now..! Instead, I'll just build a magnetic field from your want first. Njea.".
Your supply wires and PCB tracks are like that.
Ahahaha...you listen to the power supply modulated by input signal. not listen to the input signal.
Watch before you ahaha..am talking of the end stage not the frontend. The frontend needs a stable and humfree supply but the current demand is stable and low, so its simple to acchieve.
The end stage is an emitter or source follower. The name already says, the output follows the voltage of the basis or gate. The supply is connected to the collector or drain. How could this come to the emitter or source. Look to the y parameters of the transistor or fet.
AP2, I do agree with your analogy and this is exactly what I believe that I hear when switching between regular power supply, SMPS and batteries (each of these power sources are different). There is a definite change in sound character (or timber if you like).
And it would seem that some of our upstanding members have proven beyond a doubt that there is a relationship in sound character and power supply specification.
If we could find a solution to this question, we may find that amplifiers that measure the same sound the same.
For years I have torn myself away from the crowd that believes that harmonic power distribution and amplifier bandwidth is mainly responsible for the sound character of an amp.
I believe the amplifier sound characteristic results mainly from the power supply and some of the very knowledgeable DIY members seem to confirm this for me. It is only a question of the definition of the power supply relative to the amplifier power and output load.
And it would seem that some of our upstanding members have proven beyond a doubt that there is a relationship in sound character and power supply specification.
If we could find a solution to this question, we may find that amplifiers that measure the same sound the same.
For years I have torn myself away from the crowd that believes that harmonic power distribution and amplifier bandwidth is mainly responsible for the sound character of an amp.
I believe the amplifier sound characteristic results mainly from the power supply and some of the very knowledgeable DIY members seem to confirm this for me. It is only a question of the definition of the power supply relative to the amplifier power and output load.
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This effect is practically canceled out when the basis is connected to a low impedance which it is in a good design. The basis is driven by an emitter follower with low impedance.
With respect, I think you need to change books. are studying the basic concepts and old.
this not help you.
And not a good impression. I feel his reputation, if there ever was one to be associated with, became tarnished with his first post. I bumped into Lin at his second post.
Even with a low impedance driver the effect is still there, its this "practically canceled out" issue.
Personally I don't have great hearing and really cant discriminate between most amps (other than clipping or severe cross-over distortion) but I still enjoy following all these discussions which try to eliminate the slightest potential for distortion.
The pay back is huge in terms of having to keep engineering skills sharp as well as the applicability of many discussed methods to other areas where it is important to me.
So yes the early effect may or may not be significant (equivalent to some -60db) but it sure is helpful to review the impact.
Hope this helps
-Antonio
Leaving out a SMPS for argument sake as that muddies the water with an Apples and Watermelon discussion, have we come to any consensus on what is preferred a linear or regulated power supply? If not are there at least any preferred topologies for each circuit that us who are not EE's can understand and implement. This argument can go on forever but that won't help those who are trying to build an amplifier or even a good preamp if we can't size the power supply.
I guess I can just follow this argument and hope to get insights into the different approaches. but it would be nice to see some consensus on a few preferred approaches. Otherwise it is transformer, capacitor, rectifier, and make the damned things on the high voltage side, SOA of the output devices and lots of capacitor size and hope for the best....... Just being facetious in that last comment but only partially....
It's not the economy stupid, it's the music I care about. We do have a couple of nabobs trying to win an election here.........
I guess I can just follow this argument and hope to get insights into the different approaches. but it would be nice to see some consensus on a few preferred approaches. Otherwise it is transformer, capacitor, rectifier, and make the damned things on the high voltage side, SOA of the output devices and lots of capacitor size and hope for the best....... Just being facetious in that last comment but only partially....
It's not the economy stupid, it's the music I care about.
We do have a couple of nabobs trying to win an election here.........Nothing is perfect in real world. Hum from the powersupply by early effect is down lower then noise and maximum hum occur when playing loud passages, so its not an issue at all. A good engenieer designer knows this and doesnt waste time and money to use for example a so called Capacitance multiplier or what soever which may be blokked that little hum but introduce other problems he doesnt know.
Why you guys are losing your time to discus with liching1952? Look at posts $485 and #487 haw he calculate power on 0.1 ohm which is in series with the power supply and the output power with the power supply of +-50 V(forget about c multiplier losses) , he is total ignorant or just trying to provoke or disrupt this thread.
Yes am still waiting for an answer of my question in post 487 mr Dadod. Kan jij een antwoord geven meneer Dadod?
However a good engineer doesn't assume this, but rather analyzes the issue and tries to understand all aspects (wasn't really thinking about hum). Eventually a compromise is reached which results in what he or she believes is the optimal solution to accomplish their goal, accounting for the given constraints (including time and money).
Hope this helps
-Antonio
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