positioning of omnidirectional fullrange speaker

[el`Ol]

Hello,

why not! check the length.

if you take two enclosures you can change
(optimize) the mouth distance!

You are right, by making a two-enclosure construction out of "Failure No. 1" one can easily achieve the 3/2 ratio, yet far less elegant-looking.

 

[hm]

Hello,

This happend by the double horns:





By parallel wiring the two different horns, the driver of the long horn controlled
the stroke of the driver in the short horn, the little horn goes not in the
acoustic short circuit, but creates sound pressure, amazing here, more pressure
as the long horn below 40 Hz. At the same time, the impedance peak of the lowest
octave eliminated by non-entanglement, below 50 Hz ~ 4 ohms.


decware is a dipol, placement not near wall and furniture,
i don´t have the room, only 22 sqm. 52 Hz is not enough.

my double horns are push pull, bipol, 35 Hz
----
your horn: try a simple horn "Lampenschirm" plastic
AH ~4-5 cm diameter, AM 30-50 cm and place it above the center of the driver, distance, try -2 -20 cm ),
like the reflector of the Audiovector Symphonic

post 21
if you take 2
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w3-1750s.htm
you can create a 12 cm deep wall sub,
like this:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/105.htm
i think next i try a double FLH sub, an arm chair and or wall sub.

 

[el`Ol]

decware is a dipol, placement not near wall and furniture,
i don´t have the room, only 22 sqm. 52 Hz is not enough.

An explaination for those who haven´t understood yet what that´s all about:
The aim of directing a beamy fullrange driver towards the ceiling, in contrast to the Decware, isn´t getting a dipole-like sound without huge baffles or huge bass drivers / amps. Large open baffles with driver placement close to the inside give some airiness I don´t find unpleasant, but as soon as the acoustic short circuit to the outside becomes too short, this gives a spacial effect that reminds me a bit of cicada singing. What I (and graaf) want to achieve is maximum realism (which doesn´t mean getting as much spacial information out of the recording as possible).


Regards,
Oliver

 

[graaf]

Hello,

here a measurement of the FE206E direkt:

I think this can´t sound, omni.

and You are still thinking
don't You know this proverb about the pudding and the truth?

and You seem to miss the point of this thread - I am not advocating Fostex FE206e
I am rather of critical opinion of it. And I have openly expressed this opinion above.

Your attitude amazes me

but on the other hand should I really be surprised?

Poor Graaf. Most people will rather invest an hour to tell you it can´t work than five minutes to test it themselves.

so true
only I think that who is really poor is not me but rather those people that prefer theorising to an experiment
and seem not to know the difference between the ear and the microphone, the anechoic and the reverberant ennvironment, the measurement equipment and the hearing mechanism

so with all due respect - yes, we can discuss, I would like to
but before both of us should know what is discussed

best,
graaf

 

[el`Ol]

so with all due respect - yes, we can discuss, I would like to
but before both of us should know what is discussed

best,
graaf

Hello graaf!

I don´t have enough knowledge about psychoacoustics, so I am the wrong one to discuss with. I find the Ciare HX160 ideal in terms of frequency response and polar response, and I like horns better than BR, so my concern is building a horn with that driver. I highly regard hm´s knowledge, as you do with Earl´s, and I hope to get it going with his help. If I can build something that not only pleases my ears, but also my measurement microphone, I will post some graphs. But I can´t say when this will be, since I also have a driver building project running.


Regards,
Oliver

 

[graaf]

I like horns better than BR, so my concern is building a horn with that driver

I like closed boxes most
in case You are going to try out this positioning perhaps You can start with simple closed box because the positioning results in a substantial "boundary enhancement"
and perhaps with just a little bit of equalization You will be happy with the bass response from a closed box

I highly regard hm´s knowledge

o yeah, I regard his knowledge highly too
therefore I have said above "with all due respect"

this positioning is so unusual that it is difficult to judge it theoretically, even for one with very extensive knowledge
one has to try it

best,
graaf

 

[el`Ol]

I like closed boxes most
in case You are going to try out this positioning perhaps You can start with simple closed box because the positioning results in a substantial "boundary enhancement"
and perhaps with just a little bit of equalization You will be happy with the bass response from a closed box

In terms of imaging it is best to have the HX201 in a sealed box, I tried it. The Eminence Beta 15 can be used sealed, but I didn´t try this. Before I build my personal reference system for more complex music, I will check first whether it can be done with a ceiling-firing compression tweeter. If the quasi-tapped horn with the rectangular cut-out worked, it would be a nice-looking, easy to build and inexpensive design that can be copied by anyone. So it is also driven by the hope of achieving some fame in the scene.

 

[graaf]

it would be a nice-looking, easy to build and inexpensive design that can be copied by anyone. So it is also driven by the hope of achieving some fame in the scene.

good luck!
I won't be easy though
remember that it shouldn't be too simple , too easy to copy!
I have proposed something like that and it seems that almost nobody is interested
because it is too simple

best,
graaf

 

[adason]

graaf

The loudspeakers are to work on the floor – the driver is only 20 cm above the floor – and against the wall.

my first and main aim was to eliminate the detrimental effect of early floor and ceiling reflections without resorting to unavailable true linesource

these are contradictory claims
if you place omnidirectional speaker againt the wall, you will hear direct sound mixed with large amount of first early reflections from the wall which is very detrimental

 

[el`Ol]

graaf
these are contradictory claims
if you place omnidirectional speaker againt the wall, you will hear direct sound mixed with large amount of first early reflections from the wall which is very detrimental

Not necessarily.
http://www.carlssonplanet.com/downloads/index.php?act=view&id=9

My first tests with the Ciare HX160 have left a very very positive impression. I currently think about a monitor-style speaker with adjustible angle for the Ciare (15° have shown to work very well).

 

[graaf]

graaf
these are contradictory claims

frankly speaking there is nothing contradictory in the specific claims You quoted above as they clearly concern different things
the first claim concerns positioning against the side wall and the second concerns floor and ceiling reflections

if you place omnidirectional speaker againt the wall,

this is not that simple
what omnidirectional speaker? ideal monopole? this is not my case or what I propose
but it can be done the Carlsson way

you will hear direct sound mixed with large amount of first early reflections from the wall which is very detrimental

this is even less simple
how mixed?
how large amount?
how detrimental?

before answering please read the discussion between Etienne88, gedlee and me in the original thread
not all reflections are equally audible/detrimental, they are very different
it all depends on their level, spectral content and delay

best,
graaf

 

[john65b]

I do not mean to Hijack this thread, but I have always been aware of the potential sonic effects of speaker placement in a rectangular room. The Beveridge paper has re-piqued my interest in the issue.

I have always wanted to experiment with the placement of my magnepan dipolar speakers. Two square, planar, radiating surfaces in a rectangular room.

Has anyone ever experimented with placing these speakers in the corners as shown below? Seems like it would be interesting to find out how this would sound. I am in the middle of a cross country move and cannot try this for a few more months...

Has anyone tried this before?

Incidentally, I also have a pair of MMG-Ws that are designed to be mounted on a wall like a window shutter...seems like it would be a perfect application...

I have three different Magnepan speakers - a pair of the MGIIIa, MMG-W, and .5. I love the sound of these speakers, but wish I could somehow overcome the placement issue...the WAF is somewhat low in my realm.

 

[Rudolf]

Has anyone tried this before?

I have seen it done for dynamic dipole woofers, but not for planars and not for the full range.

 

[graaf]

Has anyone ever experimented with placing these speakers in the corners as shown below? Seems like it would be interesting to find out how this would sound. I am in the middle of a cross country move and cannot try this for a few more months...

Has anyone tried this before?

something similar, the so called "Stereo Unlimited tweak": http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/facing.html

best,
graaf

 

[el`Ol]

something similar, the so called "Stereo Unlimited tweak": http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/facing.html

Iwao Furuyama proposed this for his FAL Flat S a while ago.

The current status of my work with the HX160: When it was tested in K+T a while ago they wrote its imaging is "not as good as that of other fullrange drivers", which was very politely expressed. With the ceiling firing method one one has to find the middle between "too diffuse" and "dual mono", which works more or less, but not absolutely satisfying. But reversing them so that they face the rear wall is like sunrise. There has to be some distance, however, and eliminating the direct sound will be a challenge.

So all the different placements have to be seen in the context of a specific driver.

Regards,
Oliver

 

[el`Ol]

...and eliminating the direct sound will be a challenge.

Simple but effective:

 

[graaf]

Iwao Furuyama proposed this for his FAL Flat S a while ago.

yes indeed

But reversing them so that they face the rear wall is like sunrise. There has to be some distance, however, and eliminating the direct sound will be a challenge.

You may also try something like Jim Kyle's "Stereo sixteen":
see: http://www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm#sweet

the two channels arranged in a single angled cabinet. The system was designed to face into the wall and, in fact, was recommended to be placed against the wall. All of the sound was then reflected from the wall. This arrangement looks similar to a Bose 901 but, of course, the Stereo Sixteen contained both channels.

best,
graaf

 

[graaf]

ps.
perhaps we should continue discussion of these things in the original thread "loudspeaker and room as a system"?
they seem to be a bit OT in this specifically "omnidirectional" thread

best,
graaf

 

[Lowrider]

Your proposed positioning is similar to what Schallwand proposes...

http://www.schallwand.com/4957.html

 

[graaf]

Your proposed positioning is similar to what Schallwand proposes...

http://www.schallwand.com/4957.html

interesting are those people from Schallwand I have to admit
and interesting omnidirectional Shahinian-like speakers

the speaker positioning is also interesting although signifficantly different from the one I propose
in Schallwand positioning of omnidirectional LS one would get a lot of early lateral reflections and reflections off the wall behind the listener
is it recommended for their Kamasan/Tudusan? or only for their highly directional fullrange dipoles?

best,
graaf