Here are some diagrams of my fireplace set-up with and w/o speaker set-ups. I show the l/r speakers w/ 2 drivers and a tweeter each and a 4 speaker center for clarity, although this may or may not be how I actually set it up.
Figure 1 shows the basic technical dimensions of the fireplace and speaker area w/o any speakers shown.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig1.jpg?BCmMNqBBlNUfv2de
Figure 2 shows what I originally had in mind, w/ a left, center, and right speaker in cabinets, built into the face of the sheetrock.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig2.jpg?BCmMNqBBaS.lQl6E
Figure 3 shows what I believe is JohninCR's infinite baffle design.
My questions on this are whether I can use a tweeter and how to secure the speakers to the sheetrock.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig3.jpg?BCmMNqBBzAk3jtnI
In Figure 4, I show what I think I can do with an open baffle design while still keeping the speakers behind the projector screen. I plan on sheetrocking around the chimney flue and using the rest of the airspace.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig4.jpg?BCmMNqBB2URNi89k
Let me know if you guys have any comments, or suggestions, thanks.
Figure 1 shows the basic technical dimensions of the fireplace and speaker area w/o any speakers shown.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig1.jpg?BCmMNqBBlNUfv2de
Figure 2 shows what I originally had in mind, w/ a left, center, and right speaker in cabinets, built into the face of the sheetrock.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig2.jpg?BCmMNqBBaS.lQl6E
Figure 3 shows what I believe is JohninCR's infinite baffle design.
My questions on this are whether I can use a tweeter and how to secure the speakers to the sheetrock.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig3.jpg?BCmMNqBBzAk3jtnI
In Figure 4, I show what I think I can do with an open baffle design while still keeping the speakers behind the projector screen. I plan on sheetrocking around the chimney flue and using the rest of the airspace.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/51a455c3/bc/room+pics/fig4.jpg?BCmMNqBB2URNi89k
Let me know if you guys have any comments, or suggestions, thanks.
I can't see the pictures either.
Anyway, since there seems to be a problem with intelligibility, I have to presume that the room is fairly reverberant and untreated. For best results, IMO, this means that the best speakers for the space would have controlled directivity. This limits the choices. I'd say that the obvious solutions are: horns, large fullrange drivers or coaxials, or line arrays.
Horns are tough to beat for HT, but beyond the stated price range. Ditto for line arrays. You might consider the adire HE10.1 kit, which is just under the $ limit. 8" full range drivers may be good enough, and would leave enough for a cheap subwoofer. A conventional MTM has somewhat controlled vertical dispersion as well, and may be good enough. There are numerous kits available from madisound, zalytron, etc.
Open baffles in a reverberant room are a disaster IMO. That's all I have to say about it. The pioneers will work well in sealed boxes, or a TQWT if you want to get fancy. I'd suggest a piezo supertweeter be used. Don't fear piezos, they are actually very good if well implemented, especially for the $.
I agree that it would be better to space the L/R channels wider if possible.
Are these to be flush/soffit mounted? If so, that needs to be taken into account in the crossover design if applicable, as no baffle step compensation will be needed.
Anyway, since there seems to be a problem with intelligibility, I have to presume that the room is fairly reverberant and untreated. For best results, IMO, this means that the best speakers for the space would have controlled directivity. This limits the choices. I'd say that the obvious solutions are: horns, large fullrange drivers or coaxials, or line arrays.
Horns are tough to beat for HT, but beyond the stated price range. Ditto for line arrays. You might consider the adire HE10.1 kit, which is just under the $ limit. 8" full range drivers may be good enough, and would leave enough for a cheap subwoofer. A conventional MTM has somewhat controlled vertical dispersion as well, and may be good enough. There are numerous kits available from madisound, zalytron, etc.
Open baffles in a reverberant room are a disaster IMO. That's all I have to say about it. The pioneers will work well in sealed boxes, or a TQWT if you want to get fancy. I'd suggest a piezo supertweeter be used. Don't fear piezos, they are actually very good if well implemented, especially for the $.
I agree that it would be better to space the L/R channels wider if possible.
Are these to be flush/soffit mounted? If so, that needs to be taken into account in the crossover design if applicable, as no baffle step compensation will be needed.
OK, I can see it now.
One more comment: if you go with MTM speakers, don't use a horizontal center channel. There is no need to, and the horizontal MTM is the stupidest idea ever. All MTM designs have rather severe comb filtering, but when it is dispersed horizontally rather than vertically, it means that the sound will change as you move to a different part of the couch, rather than just when you stand up or sit down.
GB
One more comment: if you go with MTM speakers, don't use a horizontal center channel. There is no need to, and the horizontal MTM is the stupidest idea ever. All MTM designs have rather severe comb filtering, but when it is dispersed horizontally rather than vertically, it means that the sound will change as you move to a different part of the couch, rather than just when you stand up or sit down.
GB
OK, I see the dilemma now. You need to put speakers in front of the windows for wider placement. Probably not good WAF.
Direct radiating box speakers in a cove like that will not sound good. My choice would be to cover the whole area and use IB as in your IB sketch, but you could also flush mount vented speakers into a false wall built across it. (front ported obviously)
GB
Direct radiating box speakers in a cove like that will not sound good. My choice would be to cover the whole area and use IB as in your IB sketch, but you could also flush mount vented speakers into a false wall built across it. (front ported obviously)
GB
Greg B said:
How far out of budget are these options? As with most of my projects in life, I usually end up going over budget, anyways. If they are more than $700-$800, though, I will just forget about it, or my wife will be listening to a great set of speakers, while I am sleeping in the garage (if they are good, though, I may still hear them in the garage, hmmm?)
Greg B said:
I took a look at this, and it looks pretty good. I'm curious, though, if I need to do anything special when I drywall around the cabinets, for proper venting. Also, do you feel a center channel is unnecesarry in my set-up? I don't want something I do not need.
Greg B said:
Are their any advantages, either way?
Well, there's one thing I alluded to but left out WRT the Adire. They have significant BSC (baffle step compensation), which increases the output in the lower midrange and upper bass. This is necessary when placing speakers out in the room. Since you would not have a baffle step, it isn't necessary.
There are distinct advantages to soffit mounting: greater efficiency and less diffraction being the primary ones. BUT, you would need to ask Adire very nicely if they could alter the crossover for this application. They might, they are nice folks.
AFA horns, the cheapest I can think of offhand are the Pi speakers which are simply eminence drivers with a stock crossover, AFAIK. I think they run around $250 ea for a driver kit. (woofer, HF horn/driver, crossover) Price goes way up from there.
Also, some vintage 12" coaxials are worth considering if you don't mind vintage and want maximum bang/buck. Many work well with IB.
There are distinct advantages to soffit mounting: greater efficiency and less diffraction being the primary ones. BUT, you would need to ask Adire very nicely if they could alter the crossover for this application. They might, they are nice folks.
AFA horns, the cheapest I can think of offhand are the Pi speakers which are simply eminence drivers with a stock crossover, AFAIK. I think they run around $250 ea for a driver kit. (woofer, HF horn/driver, crossover) Price goes way up from there.
Also, some vintage 12" coaxials are worth considering if you don't mind vintage and want maximum bang/buck. Many work well with IB.
I used to play guitar (well, tried), and I used to love the vintage speaker/amps out there. I really enjoyed the warmer tones I would feel. Anyways, I'm assuming the 12" coaxials give the same type of feel, but how do I know if they work well in an IB system? What factors should I look for to determine this?
Bill,
Did I say OB was the end all? No. Did I say there weren't any good speakers in boxes? No.
Let's talk about a center channel. Have you ever compared a single decent OB speaker side by side with ANY speaker in a box?
Which do you think will sound more open and natural? Be honest.
While I'm sure there are very fine boxed speakers with clear and natural dialogue, but it's just simply not as easy to achieve, and it won't sound as open because it can't, it's in a box. Don't forget about the $500 project limit.
I think the hole in the wall could be done right to get great results with an OB speaker in the middle as the center channel. The back wave would need some damping due to proximity to the rear wall. A left and right might work, but it's easy enough to test to find out, not like building a box and having to wait until the end to know what it sounds like.
One alternative is to just cut holes in the wall and go IB, an even easier install. The last resort would be to build some boxes and put them back there, but why build a box if there's already one there?
The gentleman said 100% HT which is mostly dialogue.
People like to keep things simple. What is more simple than a reasonable full range speaker on OB? An IB just cutting a hole in the wall and mounting the driver but nothing else.
BluesboyJr,
Tweeter- Maybe, but definitely not required. Keep in mind that most TV speakers start rolling off at about 10K to give you an idea.
Damping inside of your area in back, yes probably. What type and how much will depend what route you go and what's really back there once you open it up. Just simple cheap stuff found locally like polyester batting or maybe some foam rubber or just fiberglass insulation if it closed up. I'm still concerned about heat back there.
Adding a second driver only gets you 3db more with the same power in and there are sonic compromises that come into play. One should be plenty with pretty good sensitivity of 90db on 1 watt from 100hz up.
Regarding the receiver 7 channel compatible is quite common, so fine. You can always add rear channels later. 5.1 is kind of a standard for movies, so if you play it as 7.1 your receiver is changing what the sound engineers put into the recording.
Off topic but related. Are you sure about that screen size? It's a bit high and seems like you're giving up potential. Do you sit at the very back at the movies or try to get in the middle for a nice wide ratio of viewing angle. I use a 100" diagonal and am closer to the screen. That's with 3/4 format since no HDTV down here and most DVD's are pirate copies in 3/4 format. If I ran 16/9 , I'd go wider. Just use a simple electric screen hidden at the ceiling some way with wood. What projector are you using? How many Lumens? Daytime use or only in a dark room?
Did I say OB was the end all? No. Did I say there weren't any good speakers in boxes? No.
Let's talk about a center channel. Have you ever compared a single decent OB speaker side by side with ANY speaker in a box?
Which do you think will sound more open and natural? Be honest.
While I'm sure there are very fine boxed speakers with clear and natural dialogue, but it's just simply not as easy to achieve, and it won't sound as open because it can't, it's in a box. Don't forget about the $500 project limit.
I think the hole in the wall could be done right to get great results with an OB speaker in the middle as the center channel. The back wave would need some damping due to proximity to the rear wall. A left and right might work, but it's easy enough to test to find out, not like building a box and having to wait until the end to know what it sounds like.
One alternative is to just cut holes in the wall and go IB, an even easier install. The last resort would be to build some boxes and put them back there, but why build a box if there's already one there?
The gentleman said 100% HT which is mostly dialogue.
People like to keep things simple. What is more simple than a reasonable full range speaker on OB? An IB just cutting a hole in the wall and mounting the driver but nothing else.
BluesboyJr,
Tweeter- Maybe, but definitely not required. Keep in mind that most TV speakers start rolling off at about 10K to give you an idea.
Damping inside of your area in back, yes probably. What type and how much will depend what route you go and what's really back there once you open it up. Just simple cheap stuff found locally like polyester batting or maybe some foam rubber or just fiberglass insulation if it closed up. I'm still concerned about heat back there.
Adding a second driver only gets you 3db more with the same power in and there are sonic compromises that come into play. One should be plenty with pretty good sensitivity of 90db on 1 watt from 100hz up.
Regarding the receiver 7 channel compatible is quite common, so fine. You can always add rear channels later. 5.1 is kind of a standard for movies, so if you play it as 7.1 your receiver is changing what the sound engineers put into the recording.
Off topic but related. Are you sure about that screen size? It's a bit high and seems like you're giving up potential. Do you sit at the very back at the movies or try to get in the middle for a nice wide ratio of viewing angle. I use a 100" diagonal and am closer to the screen. That's with 3/4 format since no HDTV down here and most DVD's are pirate copies in 3/4 format. If I ran 16/9 , I'd go wider. Just use a simple electric screen hidden at the ceiling some way with wood. What projector are you using? How many Lumens? Daytime use or only in a dark room?
johninCR said:
I just realized you are in Costa Rica, that is where my wife and I went on our honeymoon. Man, is it great. Anyways, back on topic, er off topic per you last post. I'm pretty much committed to the screen size of 60"X34" because my mantel is 54" off the ground and my ceiling is at 90.5" leaving me a 36.5" difference for the height of the screen. I didn't want the bottom of the screen cut-off by the protruding mantel, so I am leaving a 2.5" difference for adjustment. I would love to have a larger screen, but it just isn't possible considering my circumstance. My viewing distance is a little less than 2x anyways, and with my Infocus 4805 projector, that is about as close as I want to get. Another reason I can't go any larger is that I arleady mounted my projector, and I'm near the end of my focus ring. (I know, shame on me, but many variables went into the placement of the projector, and I considered its position the best possible of all trade-offs).
I can't remember the lumens off-hand (I'll look them up if you want me too).
Most of our viewing is done in the evening, although during the summer months it stays light until 9 o'clock. However, I haven't noticed any issues with ambient light (probably because the only windows, except the front door, face east).
The major clue is a Qts of around .7, and a relatively large Vas. Some contenders are EV 12TRX-B, Utah 'Celesta', Bozak and some others. There are probably some Jensen and University drivers that would work as well, but I'm not familiar with which ones.
The EV were sold under other brand names as well, which may be cheaper. Note: the 'B' designation is important. The non B version is a more expensive driver with much higher magnet strength and isn't suitable.
RE: the center channel - I tend to agree with JohninCR, especially if you are currently having trouble with dialogue intelligibility.
AFA open baffles, in an IB, the 'box' isn't acting as an airspring, so you'll have much of the benefits of OB WRT no boxiness. There won't be mid frequencies splashing around everywhere, and the bass will go deeper.
I really think a subwoofer is worthwhile for movies. Modern action pics make FULL use of this channel, believe me.
GB
To answer your question about driver choices, for IB and OB they need a higher Qts, say .50 to .80 . Lower Qts drivers need the pressures of a box for optimum performance and higher Qts drivers are designed for a more free air environment. They need bigger boxes if you box them up.
The Pioneer I mentioned is good enough to be written up in the DIY Loudspeaker Design Guide. I guess it's not old enough to be called vintage and is too old to be interesting to most here on the forum (scroll down to Pioneer) : http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-3.php3 It will work OB, IB, or if those don't work for you, a well damped sealed box of 40L (1.4 cu ft) which is down 3db at 60hz which is more than low enough with a subwoofer. Going that route gives you flexibility, a well regarded driver and such savings that there's plenty left for a great sub including an amp for it.
The Adire HE10.1, I'm sure is a fine speaker since I have 6 of the HE8.1's . The 10.1 and 8.1 models have low Qts Eminence woofers. The 12.1 has a more flexible Qts of .51 . If at all possible stay away from a vented cabinet. They just muddy up the bass and you need a subwoofer anyway. Any of these can go in a sealed box as well. The reason I bring them up is I have since converted mine to OB. Due to the low Qts, I had to add some helper drivers to fill in the bass, but the difference is dramatic. When I was A/Bing the boxed vs OB version, my 8 yro daughter came outside dancing and asked "daddy, why does one speaker sound so much better than the other". They will eat up all of your budget and you really don't need high efficiency for your setup. Plus there's no drastic difference between the sound quality with them and the pioneers. I use high efficiency speakers because I use very low power tube amps. There's no use paying for high efficiency if you don't need it.
The problem in your case is space for anything to work their best. I believe a single driver could work very well in the center of that opening for your center channel. 2 in stereo there could be made to work but they'd need to be only a foot or so apart to leave the side open and open up the sound field.
Better would be one in the center. One in the left corner in front of that column blocking the window some. Imagine a U shape baffle looking down from the top. 9" wide with one side 7" deep and the other 6". Angle the sides out a little for a nicer look and fit closer to the column. The right side would need to go against the wall angled to match the other with only 1 side needed. The close wall proximatey will cause a need for some damping on the back side, but you can do that by ear at the end. You end up with a more compact installation than all but the very smallest speakers and blocks very little of the windows. Paint them the same color as the wall and they be quite stealthy and match that angled wall in the entryway....good WAF and proper speaker placement for HT. Those baffles will get you down to below 100hz where the sub will take over.
For the sub, get 2 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455
Put them in a 2 driver manifold to eliminate vibrations, maybe behind your seating area above that closet. Plenty of money left for a sub amp and materials.
Don't take my word about OB, just test it out yourself. Order 1 or 2 of the pioneer's and try it out first. Worst case, you can put them in a box and still have a good speaker. It may not be as sleek and cool as some of the more modern drivers, but you were talking about putting everything behind the screen and a pair of anything is less than ideal there.
Be careful, once you go boxless you are likely to never go back.
The Pioneer I mentioned is good enough to be written up in the DIY Loudspeaker Design Guide. I guess it's not old enough to be called vintage and is too old to be interesting to most here on the forum (scroll down to Pioneer) : http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-3.php3 It will work OB, IB, or if those don't work for you, a well damped sealed box of 40L (1.4 cu ft) which is down 3db at 60hz which is more than low enough with a subwoofer. Going that route gives you flexibility, a well regarded driver and such savings that there's plenty left for a great sub including an amp for it.
The Adire HE10.1, I'm sure is a fine speaker since I have 6 of the HE8.1's . The 10.1 and 8.1 models have low Qts Eminence woofers. The 12.1 has a more flexible Qts of .51 . If at all possible stay away from a vented cabinet. They just muddy up the bass and you need a subwoofer anyway. Any of these can go in a sealed box as well. The reason I bring them up is I have since converted mine to OB. Due to the low Qts, I had to add some helper drivers to fill in the bass, but the difference is dramatic. When I was A/Bing the boxed vs OB version, my 8 yro daughter came outside dancing and asked "daddy, why does one speaker sound so much better than the other". They will eat up all of your budget and you really don't need high efficiency for your setup. Plus there's no drastic difference between the sound quality with them and the pioneers. I use high efficiency speakers because I use very low power tube amps. There's no use paying for high efficiency if you don't need it.
The problem in your case is space for anything to work their best. I believe a single driver could work very well in the center of that opening for your center channel. 2 in stereo there could be made to work but they'd need to be only a foot or so apart to leave the side open and open up the sound field.
Better would be one in the center. One in the left corner in front of that column blocking the window some. Imagine a U shape baffle looking down from the top. 9" wide with one side 7" deep and the other 6". Angle the sides out a little for a nicer look and fit closer to the column. The right side would need to go against the wall angled to match the other with only 1 side needed. The close wall proximatey will cause a need for some damping on the back side, but you can do that by ear at the end. You end up with a more compact installation than all but the very smallest speakers and blocks very little of the windows. Paint them the same color as the wall and they be quite stealthy and match that angled wall in the entryway....good WAF and proper speaker placement for HT. Those baffles will get you down to below 100hz where the sub will take over.
For the sub, get 2 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-455
Put them in a 2 driver manifold to eliminate vibrations, maybe behind your seating area above that closet. Plenty of money left for a sub amp and materials.
Don't take my word about OB, just test it out yourself. Order 1 or 2 of the pioneer's and try it out first. Worst case, you can put them in a box and still have a good speaker. It may not be as sleek and cool as some of the more modern drivers, but you were talking about putting everything behind the screen and a pair of anything is less than ideal there.
Be careful, once you go boxless you are likely to never go back.
I was looking around at coaxials, and I came across the Eminence beta 15-cx. I know Greg previously mentioned the Adire kit that has the 10" in them, but it was decided that it may not be best for my set-up. However, the 15" has a Qts. of .54 and a high Vmas, so I was wondering if this would work for either my IB or OB set-up? Here is a link to the info: http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/speakers/beta15cx.htm
I know it shows it as discontinued, but I checked, and they are still available. I was also wondering what a good CD would be for this driver? I heard the one that Eminence recommends doesn't sound the best. If anyone has any XO ideas that would help too, but if not, I would have Madisound make me up one custom for my set-up. Just to let you know JohninCR, I haven't given up on your idea, I'm just trying to extend my options before I decide.
I know it shows it as discontinued, but I checked, and they are still available. I was also wondering what a good CD would be for this driver? I heard the one that Eminence recommends doesn't sound the best. If anyone has any XO ideas that would help too, but if not, I would have Madisound make me up one custom for my set-up. Just to let you know JohninCR, I haven't given up on your idea, I'm just trying to extend my options before I decide.
Adire's compression tweeter is even better now than the old modded eminence APT50 they used before, which was quite good after their mods. Check with them to see if it's ok to use in the Beta 15CX. If not, the 12CX will work with only a slightly lower Qts of .48 .
Again, I'd don't think high efficiency is what you want. HE is for going loud enough with low power tubes or very loud with high power. Given your intended use with a typical solid state amplification in an HT receiver it may not be a good match. First, you will rarely use more than 1 watt (that's 95db at 1m with those drivers). Many SS amps don't sound their best until more power is used. Also, HE speakers, can sound more "dry" or "sterile" with SS amplification, while lower efficiency speakers can sound more "rich" with the same SS rig. That's why the guys over at Adire recommend the AV81 kit over the HE kits for HT use. It's also my experience using the Beta 8CX's with my Denon AV1803 receiver.
In addition, you'll have to come up with a crossover going that route.
Again, I'd don't think high efficiency is what you want. HE is for going loud enough with low power tubes or very loud with high power. Given your intended use with a typical solid state amplification in an HT receiver it may not be a good match. First, you will rarely use more than 1 watt (that's 95db at 1m with those drivers). Many SS amps don't sound their best until more power is used. Also, HE speakers, can sound more "dry" or "sterile" with SS amplification, while lower efficiency speakers can sound more "rich" with the same SS rig. That's why the guys over at Adire recommend the AV81 kit over the HE kits for HT use. It's also my experience using the Beta 8CX's with my Denon AV1803 receiver.
In addition, you'll have to come up with a crossover going that route.
The 15CX should work fine for IB. Looks like you wouldn't need a sub. You may want to ask FreddyI at the HE audio asylum forum. He's the only person I recall that is using them. IIRC, he used a selenium CD.
AFA high efficiency and SS, this depends on the amp. I recall my old phase linear sounded crappy with HE stuff, unless played really loud. The first watt sucking seems to be less common these days though. A lot of these consumer level opamp based receivers actually sound really good. Many folks run HE with SS. This is of course the setup in movie theaters.
A large woofer like the 15cx can inherently be a little forgiving and warm sounding. It is really about 94db, with a sharp rise starting around 800hz that will need to be dealt with in the crossover.
GB
AFA high efficiency and SS, this depends on the amp. I recall my old phase linear sounded crappy with HE stuff, unless played really loud. The first watt sucking seems to be less common these days though. A lot of these consumer level opamp based receivers actually sound really good. Many folks run HE with SS. This is of course the setup in movie theaters.
A large woofer like the 15cx can inherently be a little forgiving and warm sounding. It is really about 94db, with a sharp rise starting around 800hz that will need to be dealt with in the crossover.
GB
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