Hello,
I have no idea how to guage an arms effective mass.
I have a Michell RB300 with Pete Riggle endstub and counterweight, the tube has been sandblasted, and I have stuffed foam up in the tube.
This was all a year ago and seriously I was just screwing around with it with no knowledge, modding cos it looked good, ya know?
I have lead sinkers drilled stuck to the bolts at the vertical pivot, someone told me this increases mass in the horizontal plane, I can weigh the lead if anyone wants to help me. They are about 10 grams each.
Now I'm getting a DL103 and I need to learn how to match this carts compliance to the effective mass of my arm.
Do I really just need a heavier counerweight, should I do the compliance mods I see online to the cart, should I make the cart heavier.
I have no idea, it's time to get serious about all this.
Also would a Supex SD900 Super 2 be a good match for a rega arm , is it possible to mod the two together for a happy marriage?
Don't worry about money, I can always sell my rocket powered skates.
It is my mission to learn and make these things work together properly. I still buy all other carts throughout the year and use and enjoy them too.
But I wanna be a 103 head, if they are that moddable, such fun, what a hobby.
Thankyou,
dave
I have no idea how to guage an arms effective mass.
I have a Michell RB300 with Pete Riggle endstub and counterweight, the tube has been sandblasted, and I have stuffed foam up in the tube.
This was all a year ago and seriously I was just screwing around with it with no knowledge, modding cos it looked good, ya know?
I have lead sinkers drilled stuck to the bolts at the vertical pivot, someone told me this increases mass in the horizontal plane, I can weigh the lead if anyone wants to help me. They are about 10 grams each.
Now I'm getting a DL103 and I need to learn how to match this carts compliance to the effective mass of my arm.
Do I really just need a heavier counerweight, should I do the compliance mods I see online to the cart, should I make the cart heavier.
I have no idea, it's time to get serious about all this.
Also would a Supex SD900 Super 2 be a good match for a rega arm , is it possible to mod the two together for a happy marriage?
Don't worry about money, I can always sell my rocket powered skates.
It is my mission to learn and make these things work together properly. I still buy all other carts throughout the year and use and enjoy them too.
But I wanna be a 103 head, if they are that moddable, such fun, what a hobby.
Thankyou,
dave
It's a case of figuring out where to start I think, and I don't know how much you know already, but here's an attempt to answer your questions.
compliance is a quantity that applies to your carts and stylus, you can look it up in the technical specification that comes with your cart. A small number means it is stiffer and will need more tracking weight to play loud without mistracking. A bigger compliance number means the stylus is mounted in a softer suspension, it will play at lower tracking weights without mistracking. Observe the recommended tracking weight range for the cart and don't exceed it you can do permamnent damage. Lower tracking weight is good, less wear of the groove by the stylus.
effective mass is a quantity derived from the tonearm and headshell masses and is stated in the tonearm technical specification.
In your situation I would go back to the stock setup and get that setup correctly before trying to improve something get it set up how it was intended by the makers and see how you like the sound.
Personally I like Technics TTs they have the setup made very easy, interchangeable headshells and calibrated adjustable tracking weight and antiskate make set up really a pleasure to do and it can be done quickly.
Does thois help?
compliance is a quantity that applies to your carts and stylus, you can look it up in the technical specification that comes with your cart. A small number means it is stiffer and will need more tracking weight to play loud without mistracking. A bigger compliance number means the stylus is mounted in a softer suspension, it will play at lower tracking weights without mistracking. Observe the recommended tracking weight range for the cart and don't exceed it you can do permamnent damage. Lower tracking weight is good, less wear of the groove by the stylus.
effective mass is a quantity derived from the tonearm and headshell masses and is stated in the tonearm technical specification.
In your situation I would go back to the stock setup and get that setup correctly before trying to improve something get it set up how it was intended by the makers and see how you like the sound.
Personally I like Technics TTs they have the setup made very easy, interchangeable headshells and calibrated adjustable tracking weight and antiskate make set up really a pleasure to do and it can be done quickly.
Does thois help?
PS
you might also ask these questions at vinylengine forum
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/index.php
you might also ask these questions at vinylengine forum
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/index.php
Hello.
Tedr, I did post this exact thread in vinylengine.
To the guy above, thanks for the tips, erm, soon I will be getting a stock RB250 to put in a plinth I am making and selling...I might just own it for 6 months and do a whole lot of experimenting...it would be hard to get my RB300 back to stock, so, I will have a stock arm and a mod arm.
Should help me.
Low compliance=stiffer suspension
and vice versa...thankyou
I always thought low compliance was better..different things suit different situations. ??
The compliance mod I see that can be done to the DL103, err...soundsmith, I think, do it, and all I read about potting with epoxy, does this all mean lower compliance after the mods?
Oh sorry, the guy above is also tedr.
haha
Tedr, I did post this exact thread in vinylengine.
To the guy above, thanks for the tips, erm, soon I will be getting a stock RB250 to put in a plinth I am making and selling...I might just own it for 6 months and do a whole lot of experimenting...it would be hard to get my RB300 back to stock, so, I will have a stock arm and a mod arm.
Should help me.
Low compliance=stiffer suspension
and vice versa...thankyou
I always thought low compliance was better..different things suit different situations. ??
The compliance mod I see that can be done to the DL103, err...soundsmith, I think, do it, and all I read about potting with epoxy, does this all mean lower compliance after the mods?
Oh sorry, the guy above is also tedr.
haha
er, before and after?
I didn't see any image, I'll take yer word for it.
Yes planarboy, our paths have crossed here before. Hope the explanations are suitable for the cart/mass compliance and that they answer your questions.
As far as mods to the DL103, I believe a good one is to remove the cart from the body. I saw a video on youtube on how to do it.
As mass increases, resonant frequency drops, and conversely, as mass decreases, resonant frequency increases. It all depends on your arm and cartridge as a system.
I'm assuming you have an RB300?
stew
I didn't see any image, I'll take yer word for it.
Yes planarboy, our paths have crossed here before. Hope the explanations are suitable for the cart/mass compliance and that they answer your questions.
As far as mods to the DL103, I believe a good one is to remove the cart from the body. I saw a video on youtube on how to do it.
As mass increases, resonant frequency drops, and conversely, as mass decreases, resonant frequency increases. It all depends on your arm and cartridge as a system.
I'm assuming you have an RB300?
stew
...I'll start on it as soon as I get it. If my mission tonearm sells, I will get a UWE body, but I'll wear down the stock tip for now...cash, y'see...
So, I'm looking for the needle to wobble somewhere I can't hear it, but not too low down there because of footfall.
Maybe I can just play with mass and leave the whole compliance issue alone, then do it all again when I get better cantilever and fineline stylus.
I am still only grasping, at present I have no MC cart to set up, for the purpose of 'getting in among it'...
But soon I will have a supex with boron CL, FG stylus, also another supex with SS's 'stock' 150 dollar job (probably to sell)...and the 103.
Why the supex?
I found them cheap online- one actually still made music, and I'm hanging to hear it again.
I cant remember what the one is called I'm getting the fg tip on, but I think it's 900 MKIV.
Do you reckon many people end up with tonearms whos mass they can adjust by means to match a range of carts?
Should I get a 'heavier' arm and chuck it in a two arm plinth?
Still in the land of the Rega Bearing, me.
Thanks for your help, nanook
So, I'm looking for the needle to wobble somewhere I can't hear it, but not too low down there because of footfall.
Maybe I can just play with mass and leave the whole compliance issue alone, then do it all again when I get better cantilever and fineline stylus.
I am still only grasping, at present I have no MC cart to set up, for the purpose of 'getting in among it'...
But soon I will have a supex with boron CL, FG stylus, also another supex with SS's 'stock' 150 dollar job (probably to sell)...and the 103.
Why the supex?
I found them cheap online- one actually still made music, and I'm hanging to hear it again.
I cant remember what the one is called I'm getting the fg tip on, but I think it's 900 MKIV.
Do you reckon many people end up with tonearms whos mass they can adjust by means to match a range of carts?
Should I get a 'heavier' arm and chuck it in a two arm plinth?
Still in the land of the Rega Bearing, me.
Thanks for your help, nanook
planarboy, here's a "sample" calculation....
using an RB300 and a Supex 900:
Supex 900:
weight = 9.0 grams
compliance: = 12*10-6 cmcm/dyne, or 12 CU
Rega RB300 :
effective mass:=11.5 grams
Fres =1000/(2*π*√((Mtotal*CUs))
= 1000/(2*π*√((9.0+11.5)*12)))
=1000/98.55
≅ 10.147 Hz
as long as the Fres<15 Hz all should be good. Footfalls apparentently around 5 Hz. Large record warps > 15Hz, but they have to be pretty large.
hope that helps.
Most modern designs are pretty compatible.
stew
using an RB300 and a Supex 900:
Supex 900:
weight = 9.0 grams
compliance: = 12*10-6 cmcm/dyne, or 12 CU
Rega RB300 :
effective mass:=11.5 grams
Fres =1000/(2*π*√((Mtotal*CUs))
= 1000/(2*π*√((9.0+11.5)*12)))
=1000/98.55
≅ 10.147 Hz
as long as the Fres<15 Hz all should be good. Footfalls apparentently around 5 Hz. Large record warps > 15Hz, but they have to be pretty large.
hope that helps.
Most modern designs are pretty compatible.
stew
I don't know...
not based on the tonearm, etc.
Just use reasonable care,and get ye a scale or tracking force gauge, and be meticulous setting it up. Good resources are out there on how to do that.
Laura Dearborn (author of Good Sound) has this to say . There are other guides out there too.
Grados are reasonably cheap (depending on model).
stew
not based on the tonearm, etc.
Just use reasonable care,and get ye a scale or tracking force gauge, and be meticulous setting it up. Good resources are out there on how to do that.
Laura Dearborn (author of Good Sound) has this to say . There are other guides out there too.
Grados are reasonably cheap (depending on model).
stew
I do have a scale, I've got a protractor, scale and test record, the only thing I need is for my carts to show up.
I did treat this other cart I bought new really bad from the start, a Denon DL301 2. So I do need to be much much much more careful, and am on the prowl for a 2nd hand worn 103 I can practise on. But the supex carts I wont bother, they are great already I'm sure. Big cult following, the supex.
Like my bass guitar, I can only get better as I learn, but rest assured I will be extremely careful.
I already know I have to be in a certain 'clear mind' mood before I pick up that little screwdriver.
I will eventually get a Grado, but first half of this year I am really hoping to get a Benz Ace, maybe even a Glider to hook up to the lucaschek, a preamp I am very happy with even though I have had not a lot to compare it to.
Right now me and a friend are making a power supply for an RIAA stage from Ken Stapleton, and if MM isn't a typo, off I go to Cinemag as well.
This is so much more fun than bloody model cars or bass guitar. As I learn piano, that will rival this as my fav hobby.
If I can spend $3000 on a new Beale upright, I can also spend 1500 on carts this year, most of that is eaten up in retips though.
Finally I rival the female for tiny things that cost a lot, and it has diamond too!
I did treat this other cart I bought new really bad from the start, a Denon DL301 2. So I do need to be much much much more careful, and am on the prowl for a 2nd hand worn 103 I can practise on. But the supex carts I wont bother, they are great already I'm sure. Big cult following, the supex.
Like my bass guitar, I can only get better as I learn, but rest assured I will be extremely careful.
I already know I have to be in a certain 'clear mind' mood before I pick up that little screwdriver.
I will eventually get a Grado, but first half of this year I am really hoping to get a Benz Ace, maybe even a Glider to hook up to the lucaschek, a preamp I am very happy with even though I have had not a lot to compare it to.
Right now me and a friend are making a power supply for an RIAA stage from Ken Stapleton, and if MM isn't a typo, off I go to Cinemag as well.
This is so much more fun than bloody model cars or bass guitar. As I learn piano, that will rival this as my fav hobby.
If I can spend $3000 on a new Beale upright, I can also spend 1500 on carts this year, most of that is eaten up in retips though.
Finally I rival the female for tiny things that cost a lot, and it has diamond too!
...spending $5000 in a year on audio, including the piano, is a little unnerving, surely I should be saving that cash for when the dollar is useless and I'm old.
A hobby is a hobby, and I wish I was into cross stitch, or reading about war, bloody vinyl is an expensive hobby!
I'm only a worker earning workers wages.
A hobby is a hobby, and I wish I was into cross stitch, or reading about war, bloody vinyl is an expensive hobby!
I'm only a worker earning workers wages.
hi compliance>how to lighten arm+
I've deserted my B&O 8002s for a seductive Yamaha PX-2 linear tracker with a medium mass (16.5g) arm. As a hopeless tinkerer/mod man, I am compelled to try my excellent B&O cartridges in it.
I need a good/cheap 20g scale to compare
headshells/cartridges/arm mass-any suggestions?
Is there a way (test record?) to excite pickup system across the 5-20hz region and observe the reonant peak? (I'd rather observe results than calculate them).
I've already mounted a MMC-2 cart(1.6g) into a Soundsmith adapter (5g before removing heavy hardware-I need a scale!) and installed it in an ultralight headshell-seems pretty good already. I am not clear if the published arm mass for the PX-2 includes the 8g (heavy) Yamaha headshell. I hunch it does.
So the issues are: 20g/cheap scale; how to check actual resonant peak with voltmeter & freq counter? phil
I've deserted my B&O 8002s for a seductive Yamaha PX-2 linear tracker with a medium mass (16.5g) arm. As a hopeless tinkerer/mod man, I am compelled to try my excellent B&O cartridges in it.
I need a good/cheap 20g scale to compare
headshells/cartridges/arm mass-any suggestions?
Is there a way (test record?) to excite pickup system across the 5-20hz region and observe the reonant peak? (I'd rather observe results than calculate them).
I've already mounted a MMC-2 cart(1.6g) into a Soundsmith adapter (5g before removing heavy hardware-I need a scale!) and installed it in an ultralight headshell-seems pretty good already. I am not clear if the published arm mass for the PX-2 includes the 8g (heavy) Yamaha headshell. I hunch it does.
So the issues are: 20g/cheap scale; how to check actual resonant peak with voltmeter & freq counter? phil
There is a simple way to estimate effective mass of any as seen by a cartridge. Remove arm counterweight and then a small spring balance or beam scale weight is fixed to the cartridge headshell as close as possible to the stylus tip. Read the weight. It's not a perfect way but simple and good enough and useful as sometimes effective armm mass is not stated in turntable specs.
cheers,
cheers,
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