If possible I would like to put two of these in one box. I'm starting with a blank sheet of paper. Tall is no problem but floor space is at a premium. ability to fit in a corner is a plus.
How about an el-pipe-o type?
or dipole?
or T-line??
or????
Cost no object, go nuts.
Thanks
Tom
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ndustrialTADProductDetails/0,1445,876,00.html
How about an el-pipe-o type?
or dipole?
or T-line??
or????
Cost no object, go nuts.
Thanks
Tom
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ndustrialTADProductDetails/0,1445,876,00.html
Attachments
Hi Tom,
This may not be quit what you’re looking for, but than again, it may fit the bill for you. I’m using 1601’s as a pair of end tables (They are really in the corners in proximity to the mid-bass and up). There a few good reasons why I’m suggesting something like this for you.
1.)The TAD 1601 & 2 are very efficient and a pair can fill your room at 115db level down into the 25Hz range.
2.)Despite what you may have been told, mono subs negatively effect the image and sound stage. The imaging is much more stable with stereo subs. Even if you x-over below 80Hz with a 24db/octave x-over, you will hear the output a full octave+ into the stop band.
3.)The bass from the TAD’s is solid and tight even in a ported box. My “end tables” have a 2’ X 2’ foot print for a 4.5cu-ft box. I could have just as easily gone more vertical and made a smaller foot print with the same volume box.
4.)I don’t have enough experience to tell you what the results would be in a TL or “El-Pipe-O” configuration.
5.)There are better bass drivers out there, but not a lot
The major down sides of this woofer is the need for equalization.
Your f3 in the ported box will be around 45Hz. In this box it will have a broad bump of about 6db centered around 300+Hz and a slow roll off into the upper 20’s and drop at 24db/octave below fs. I use a bass boost to get an f3 of about 27Hz with flat response to the upper x-over of about 90Hz but these drivers are not made for operation below fs. You must decide what’s low enough for you.
Rodd Yamashita
This may not be quit what you’re looking for, but than again, it may fit the bill for you. I’m using 1601’s as a pair of end tables (They are really in the corners in proximity to the mid-bass and up). There a few good reasons why I’m suggesting something like this for you.
1.)The TAD 1601 & 2 are very efficient and a pair can fill your room at 115db level down into the 25Hz range.
2.)Despite what you may have been told, mono subs negatively effect the image and sound stage. The imaging is much more stable with stereo subs. Even if you x-over below 80Hz with a 24db/octave x-over, you will hear the output a full octave+ into the stop band.
3.)The bass from the TAD’s is solid and tight even in a ported box. My “end tables” have a 2’ X 2’ foot print for a 4.5cu-ft box. I could have just as easily gone more vertical and made a smaller foot print with the same volume box.
4.)I don’t have enough experience to tell you what the results would be in a TL or “El-Pipe-O” configuration.
5.)There are better bass drivers out there, but not a lot
The major down sides of this woofer is the need for equalization.
Your f3 in the ported box will be around 45Hz. In this box it will have a broad bump of about 6db centered around 300+Hz and a slow roll off into the upper 20’s and drop at 24db/octave below fs. I use a bass boost to get an f3 of about 27Hz with flat response to the upper x-over of about 90Hz but these drivers are not made for operation below fs. You must decide what’s low enough for you.
Rodd Yamashita
Attachments
Rodd
Thanks for the reply. Very nice work! I bet they sound great. I need them to do 100hz and down, wherever that ends up is fine with me.
O.K. so i'll build two.
Would you do anything different now?
I have been told that the measurements on the web site are not accurate.
Do you know where I can get correct t/s measurments so I can use a box building program?
Thanks again.
Thanks for the reply. Very nice work! I bet they sound great. I need them to do 100hz and down, wherever that ends up is fine with me.
O.K. so i'll build two.
Would you do anything different now?
I have been told that the measurements on the web site are not accurate.
Do you know where I can get correct t/s measurments so I can use a box building program?
Thanks again.
Hi Tom,
I am pretty happy with the TAD's. I am also a bit embarassed to say that I only checked their function and depended on the specs from Bass Box Pro (which are spot on with TAD's) to tune the port. That out of the bag, specs are mostly about alignment and FR in ported boxes anyway. As I said in my last post, these woofers need to be equalized.
As it turned out, I do not regret not having tested them first, particularly since my boxes were already made (I had 12" JBL 124A's in them for 20 years). If you have one of the box design programs you can play with box size and tuning. You'll see that FR is the most effected, but the quality and character of these drivers will show through a little misalignment. I wouldn't be real concerned about a % or two of misalignment. These drivers will also change a little as they break-in. There has been some change in the sound of the TAD's over the past year. They are more dynamic then when they were new. The kick drum used to be a bit muted, but now are very "present" and... well, dynamic.
It is on my list to test them but I have to get a good mic first. When I do, I may re-tune the box/port, but that would be all. After all, flat response on a graph is a completely different issue then flat response in a room, particularly in the bass region. It really is about how they sound.
Rodd Yamashita
I am pretty happy with the TAD's. I am also a bit embarassed to say that I only checked their function and depended on the specs from Bass Box Pro (which are spot on with TAD's) to tune the port. That out of the bag, specs are mostly about alignment and FR in ported boxes anyway. As I said in my last post, these woofers need to be equalized.
As it turned out, I do not regret not having tested them first, particularly since my boxes were already made (I had 12" JBL 124A's in them for 20 years). If you have one of the box design programs you can play with box size and tuning. You'll see that FR is the most effected, but the quality and character of these drivers will show through a little misalignment. I wouldn't be real concerned about a % or two of misalignment. These drivers will also change a little as they break-in. There has been some change in the sound of the TAD's over the past year. They are more dynamic then when they were new. The kick drum used to be a bit muted, but now are very "present" and... well, dynamic.
It is on my list to test them but I have to get a good mic first. When I do, I may re-tune the box/port, but that would be all. After all, flat response on a graph is a completely different issue then flat response in a room, particularly in the bass region. It really is about how they sound.
Rodd Yamashita
tom1356 said:
The TAD drivers are great and all, but I wonder if you'd be better served with some secondhand JBL Pro drivers for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost, and building a tall corner enclosure to house a number of them per channel. Low bass is about volume displacement, and 3 or 4 2235s would move a lot more air cleaner than the TAD for similar money. I'd also go for a sub per channel.
If you here going to use them up to 500Hz, then I'd be more inclined to look at the TAD. The TAD also has an extremely low Qts which will make it more difficult to get a suitable alignment I think (I haven't run the numbers)
Hi Amo,
I have to make a few assumptions of what your requirements are, but based on the content of my quote and your comment of it being a 4-way active system I would say that cost and space are not big issues. You would want to look at this site for Mr. Pass and Kent’s El-Pipe-O at: http://passdiy.com/
There’s not going to be a lot of music below 40Hz if your listening to R&R or Jazz. Even classical will bottom out around 25Hz (27Hz is the lowest note of the grand piano). So unless your into HT or organ music an f3 in the 25 to 30Hz range would do quite well. You can also check out the Adire site at: http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/drivers/adire/adire.htm
Both the El-Pipe-O and the larger Adire woofers are extreme woofers. We’re talkin’ 15Hz at 100db+. That will send you home to change your pants.
I have to make a few assumptions of what your requirements are, but based on the content of my quote and your comment of it being a 4-way active system I would say that cost and space are not big issues. You would want to look at this site for Mr. Pass and Kent’s El-Pipe-O at: http://passdiy.com/
There’s not going to be a lot of music below 40Hz if your listening to R&R or Jazz. Even classical will bottom out around 25Hz (27Hz is the lowest note of the grand piano). So unless your into HT or organ music an f3 in the 25 to 30Hz range would do quite well. You can also check out the Adire site at: http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/drivers/adire/adire.htm
Both the El-Pipe-O and the larger Adire woofers are extreme woofers. We’re talkin’ 15Hz at 100db+. That will send you home to change your pants.
tom1356,
Keep in mind there are TONS of 15's available in the market.
I don't know how much the TAD cost, but, I would suggest
before you purchase them to explore other brands within
the same price point, compare the TS Parameters, and,
see which one will give you the best response.
Good Luck.
Keep in mind there are TONS of 15's available in the market.
I don't know how much the TAD cost, but, I would suggest
before you purchase them to explore other brands within
the same price point, compare the TS Parameters, and,
see which one will give you the best response.
Good Luck.
roddyama said:
Thanks for the info. As far as my requirements... I figured since I am doing a full range system, I will make it really full range. Besides, I do listen to quite a bit of electronic music, which at times can have very low bass, though not as often as one would immagine... I think what is really important to me in a low end driver is lack of distortion, since you can not mask it no matter what you do. I am also hoping that I could use two (maybe three?) 10 inch drivers as apposed to a 15, so that the enclosure can be slim and tall... Although if such drivers will not solve my problem, I will use what I must, even an 18. I am really trying to find a very high quality driver under $1,500 that will play as low as possible only as high as 150 Hz (probably lower then that). I understand that this price range is overkill and I could get something good for less, but I do not want to exclude any exceptional (sp?) candidates.
Rodd-
Is that a horn I see in the picture? How is the sound of that compared to something conventional. I was on the TED site, and noticed their $2.2k copression drivers and $2.5k horns, and though, wow, from 600hz and up... I wander how that sounds. Is the resolution good? Is distortion low?
Is that a horn I see in the picture? How is the sound of that compared to something conventional. I was on the TED site, and noticed their $2.2k copression drivers and $2.5k horns, and though, wow, from 600hz and up... I wander how that sounds. Is the resolution good? Is distortion low?
Hi Amo,amo said:
Here's a good thread from a month or so back.:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16616
It has some very good discussion on the merits and pitfalls of horns (mostly in the mid-bass and up range).
The horns in the picture are my old JBL's with a 1" throat and JBL 077 tweeter. I were very detailed, and distortion free, but that doesn't tell the story. What you read in the thread above is that horn have a special draw that you must experience to appreciate. It's not PC to say they sound better then conventional speakers, even in general terms. What can be said is they have a different effect on the listener. You really must hear it for yourself.
Selecting a driver, whether for the bass or any range, is a series of trade-offs. Volume, bandwidth, size (in the bass), and distortion (or more accurately, quality sound) balanced one against the other. The more your willing to pay, the smaller the trade-offs. Of course, the law of diminishing returns always applies. You need to determine what is most important to you. To build the ulimate pair of sub-woofers will do no good at all if your sitting on them as your wife kicks you both out of the house. Once you've decided what the acceptable trade-offs are, you start to zero in on specific components.amo said:
This is a very old thread, I realize, but in case anyone comes by to take a look: any plans out there for a cabinet for the TAD TL-1602? That was the original poster's question, but it doesn't seem to have been answered. It's easy enough to get cabinet plans for the 1601 series of TAD woofers, but I've never seen any information about the TL-1602 which has a similar sensitivity rating (97 dB) but, among other differences, a much larger Vas (519 litres) and a much lower Fs (21 Hz).
None that I recall, but due to the really low Qts, it will depend on how much series resistance there is and/or how much EQ is available.
For instance, with only ~0.5 ohms for wire, XO components, then a ~57 L/42 Hz Fb will suffice whereas a high output impedance SET amp or high power amp with EQ could be as large as ~526 L/21 Hz. A compromise alignment would be around 365 L/21 Hz.
GM
For instance, with only ~0.5 ohms for wire, XO components, then a ~57 L/42 Hz Fb will suffice whereas a high output impedance SET amp or high power amp with EQ could be as large as ~526 L/21 Hz. A compromise alignment would be around 365 L/21 Hz.
GM
GM, Thanks for the comments. Amp will be a solid state unit (AB International 9620B rated at 825 Wrms/channel @ 8 ohms and 1450/ch @ 4 ohms). I was hoping for a cabinet of 170-200 litres tuned to 28-30 Hz to achieve an F3 of 28-30 Hz. Plan is to cross the TL-1602s over @ 80-100 Hz and have a reproduction of the TAD 2404 handle the rest of the frequency range. Or am I being unrealistic? Joel.
limono, Could you say more about why you consider to TL-1602 to be "junk." It is supposed to be TAD's alternative to the JBL 2235H. I take it you'd prefer the JBL?
limono, Could you say more about why you consider to TL-1602 to be "junk." It is supposed to be TAD's alternative to the JBL 2235H. I take it you'd prefer the JBL?
Sorry, my comment was not appropriate. Although it is a 15" with fairly low FS it is neither a bass driver nor it has that 98 dB . I think it's closer to 93-94 dB . Of course it doesn't matter with 1kW SS amp . I think with 200 L and some EQ you should be fairly happy with it. I also have them since the alternative is a custom driver. Who makes very good 15" with low Fs , and 50-100W power handling which can work in closed box so I can use a tube amp on the bass? nobody
You're welcome!
Yeah, a wee bit.
You've got huge amp overkill as even at its 150 W rating it's already somewhat beyond Xmax and at a relatively 'small' 200 L tuned to ~27.5 Hz [F6] to get all of a piano's BW, F3 is up around 50 Hz.
To get a lower F3 will require trading some efficiency for a wider ~flat BW, so some form of EQ is required to roll off all its higher BW to basically reduce it to a ~ 93 dB/W/m efficiency. Consequently, high SQ peak SPL is a bit low at ~110 dB/m/channel, ~113 dB/m/stereo, so if this isn’t acceptable, then dual drivers/channel will be required.
Since SS amps tend to be non-linear at fractional power, you could add ~3.5 ohms of series resistance [based on the driver's published specs] to both pre-load the amp into its 'sweet' BW and flatten out the driver's response. Some say it adds a bit of tube-like tone to boot.
Note that this assumes the speakers will be well away from any walls/corners, otherwise the low end will be pumped up somewhat and maybe enough to keep from having to shelve down its HF much, if any.
GM
GM and limono, Thanks for the additional information. I can see that maybe I shouldn't have sold those JBL 2235s! Perhaps the plan for the TL-1602 to handle 30-80 Hz and a 1601b to handle 80-650 Hz may not be the best possible arrangement. Maybe I should leave the TL-1602 in the closet—or sell them—and haul out the JBL 2245H instead....food for thought!
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.