¿GotJazz? said:
That is a very big investment to find out if you like the sound! There are two components to "liking the sound in this case":
1. dipole sound - first determine if you even like dipoles. See if you can find someone with them and have a listen. If not then you might consider building some cheap dipole satelites and combine them with your sub - see if you like it. In particular you also want to see how it performs in your room - the real test.
2. crossover and driver selection - in this case I think you are safe there.
¿GotJazz? said:
It's a tough job, surviving with Phoenix speakers, but someone has to do it.
Apart from output, the differences are probably tiny. So small you might have trouble judging it in a blind listening test.
¿GotJazz? said:
It might stress the drivers trying to push them down lower. You might help the situation to use a 4th order highpass to the woofers instead of the 2nd order one used in the Phoenix - this is one of the changes as I understand, that Linkwitz made to make the Orion smaller. It sounds like this needs experimentation. You could:
1. try to get away with just the main panel with a 4th order highpass - you might live with a slight dip around 80 - 120 Hz and / or the loss of some output
2. add a pair of 10" woofers to the panel which is less bulky than a dipole woofer H or W frame - a side benefit is you can cross the mids higher
3. build dipole woofers for all channels - you might make the surround dipole woofers cheaper and smaller, run them fullrange from your receiver, eq them to 60 Hz and put a highpass on them below that point.
PS: Paul, I'm guessing with your absolutely amazing system setup that you have the most understanding wife in the world!
[/B][/QUOTE]I'm in pre-wife stage, but I'm probably a lot more fussy than any future wife is likely to be about what goes into a living room. If a speaker is to go into a living room, I think it should be either unobtrusive and blend into the room, or if it stands out it should be a statement piece, like a sculpture or work of art that is a focal point in the room. I prefer to treat my speakers like sculptures. I'm saving my larger ideas for when I have a large dedicated room.
Variac said:
1. output
2. the info is there to be able to change it, which nearly all diyers want to do in some way ... it seems most of us have trouble taking a design and accepting it completely as it is, we all want to get our feet wet and our hands dirty, hopefully without throwing ourselves in the deep end.
We should think of a term to describe the obsession with tweaking and changing what we probably can't improve!
Variac - I can't build all Orions. I can have "stock" Orions for my mains, but my surrounds have to be able to (1) Go over my TV for the center channel, and (2) be hung from my vaulted ceiling about 13 feet above my head for the rears. Thus, Orions won't do the trick for any of the surround channels.Variac said:
So, I was previously thinking about doing Orions for the mains, and the modifying the Phoenix to use the same Seas drivers as the Orions to get a good driver match between all of the speakers.
However, nobody responded back that they had modified the Phoenix crossover to be used with the Seas drivers, so I'm punting the idea. I haven't fooled with crossover designs in decades, and I don't want to screw up SL's well-thought-out design with my guesswork.
Another thing is that the Orion crossover design has a 120 Hz crossover from woofer to midrange. Surround speakers are expected to have output down to 80 Hz for the "small" speaker profile. The Orion crossover design is even higher in frequency that the Phoenix crossover, so just building an Orion main panel for the surrounds will have a bigger "hole" to fill in the upper bass region.
And, as paulspencer said, the higher output of the Phoenix design is also attractive.
Agreed! I wish that I could hear the Phoenix / Orions locally, but none of the folks listed on SL's site were in my area. Considering that I've been listening to either ESLs (Martin Logan Quests) or ribbon tweeters & midranges (Infinity RS-II B) for about 20 years now - I'm pretty sure that I'll like dipole sonic characteristics.
Actually, SL has updated the Phoenix design to use a 24 dB/oct filter between the woofer & midrange now - Updated 11-FEB-04.
Can anyone tell me if my calculated number of amplification channels and the number of wires to my rears are correct?
I think you are fairly safe then in assuming that you will like them.
...
The number of amp channels seems right to me, but then it really depends on how much power you are using. SL is careful not to use amps with too much power to drive beyond xmax limits. Normally it's better to have a bit more power, but with dipoles overexcursion is more of a problem. So to really answer your question depends on the power of each channel. The best I could do is answer from my own reading of the site, which isn't really any better than yours. I do recall seeing on the website with reference to the Orion, how many channels were recommended and with how much power. The thing to watch is if you have two amp channels - one for each woofer or a more powerful amp channel for both of them. You might have a pair of 70w chip amps, or you might have one more powerful. I'd first check the site and if you can't find out ....
if I were you I'd find all the Phoenix builders you can on the net and email them. I'd also email SL with any questions not covered on the site. If you haven't already, say hello to bob ...
have you met bob?
...
The number of amp channels seems right to me, but then it really depends on how much power you are using. SL is careful not to use amps with too much power to drive beyond xmax limits. Normally it's better to have a bit more power, but with dipoles overexcursion is more of a problem. So to really answer your question depends on the power of each channel. The best I could do is answer from my own reading of the site, which isn't really any better than yours. I do recall seeing on the website with reference to the Orion, how many channels were recommended and with how much power. The thing to watch is if you have two amp channels - one for each woofer or a more powerful amp channel for both of them. You might have a pair of 70w chip amps, or you might have one more powerful. I'd first check the site and if you can't find out ....
if I were you I'd find all the Phoenix builders you can on the net and email them. I'd also email SL with any questions not covered on the site. If you haven't already, say hello to bob ...
have you met bob?
GotJazz,
I can help you with circuit changes required for using the Seas drivers in place of the SS drivers in the Phoenix. I've built both the Phoenix, Orion and now a hybrid system which incorporates the best aspects of both, so am pretty familiar with the requirements.
I don't check this forum that often, but if you'd like to contact me offline feel free.
Cheers,
Davey.
I can help you with circuit changes required for using the Seas drivers in place of the SS drivers in the Phoenix. I've built both the Phoenix, Orion and now a hybrid system which incorporates the best aspects of both, so am pretty familiar with the requirements.
I don't check this forum that often, but if you'd like to contact me offline feel free.
Cheers,
Davey.
I have tons of photos, but most are not on my web space currently. Here a couple of the current system:
http://home.comcast.net/~dreite/Temp/IMG_0439.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~dreite/Temp/IMG_0441.JPG
The woofers are Adire DPL12's and the crossover is a modified Orion crossover....(Not DSP.)
Davey.
http://home.comcast.net/~dreite/Temp/IMG_0439.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~dreite/Temp/IMG_0441.JPG
The woofers are Adire DPL12's and the crossover is a modified Orion crossover....(Not DSP.)
Davey.
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