Hi schillg11,
Completely agree as I've changed so many ... These days I just replace it without even thinking about it.
But the fault didn't seem to point to that, but the latest faut may well be that capacitor. Maybe not. Then do it after the dust has settled. I don't want to confuse the issue.
-Chris
Completely agree as I've changed so many ... These days I just replace it without even thinking about it.
But the fault didn't seem to point to that, but the latest faut may well be that capacitor. Maybe not. Then do it after the dust has settled. I don't want to confuse the issue.
-Chris
I agree that the servos and laser seem to tweaked -- tho' this took some effort. I just posted the eye pattern of this CD60 in another, related thread.
Here it is again:
This CD60 is tracking nicely -- even on CDs with blemishes that cause mistracking on other CDPs.
The HF (eye pattern) is taken (o'scope lead) just as it enters the SAA7310 decoder IC.
It's weird that the noise issue is more pronounced on certain discs (i.e., ones with blemishes, or other defects).
About caps:
The electro caps in this CD60 were all replaced about 5yrs ago. Yes, those blue "Philips" caps are not good.
FYI:
This CDP was purch'd on eBay early 2008 (??). It was closeted for about 1 1/2 years, and then I began some mods. It was basically an experimental device for mods, and has received less than 30 hours of play since my orig. purchase. (It looked like a low-hours unit after purchase inspection).
Always treated with kid gloves (until the accident, of course) ... and this includes the use of clean power: the rectifier caps are all Panasonic or BlackGate, and the mains line has Auri Cap. All the voltage regs are snubbed.
Here it is again:
This CD60 is tracking nicely -- even on CDs with blemishes that cause mistracking on other CDPs.
The HF (eye pattern) is taken (o'scope lead) just as it enters the SAA7310 decoder IC.
anatech: Not sure what you mean here? I don't see and "adjustable inductor" . Have you looked at the CD60's SM?
It's weird that the noise issue is more pronounced on certain discs (i.e., ones with blemishes, or other defects).
About caps:
The electro caps in this CD60 were all replaced about 5yrs ago. Yes, those blue "Philips" caps are not good.
FYI:
This CDP was purch'd on eBay early 2008 (??). It was closeted for about 1 1/2 years, and then I began some mods. It was basically an experimental device for mods, and has received less than 30 hours of play since my orig. purchase. (It looked like a low-hours unit after purchase inspection).
Always treated with kid gloves (until the accident, of course) ... and this includes the use of clean power: the rectifier caps are all Panasonic or BlackGate, and the mains line has Auri Cap. All the voltage regs are snubbed.
This project is so close to being done .... alas, there is that distortion issue ...
Did some more listening tests.
It seems almost all CDs have a that distortion at quiet passages. When audio signal (music) is moderate or loud, no distortion can be heard (it may be masked).
It's almost as if LSBs (least significant bits) are not properly "controlled".
Did some more listening tests.
It seems almost all CDs have a that distortion at quiet passages. When audio signal (music) is moderate or loud, no distortion can be heard (it may be masked).
It's almost as if LSBs (least significant bits) are not properly "controlled".
Spindle Motor?
The worst discs being ever so slightly heavier. If you 'gently' try and slow the disc whilst it's playing, does the Player produce the same sort of noise as you are getting anyway?
P.
Related to the spindle motor is the flapper thrust bearing. Place your little fingernail lightly on the top of the flapper to see if you can feel any vibration. Sometimes its easier to take the puck out from the flapper and check the surface of the replaceable flat thing for a circular depression. You can sand it flat again and install some new lubrication. It'll work like new for a while.
-Chris
-Chris
Noise remains ...
It's not the spindle, flapper ... anatech -- you need to start diggin' into that SM
I think you were suggesting VCO?
Remember: it was you that ruled out the laser/servo/mechanical systems a few posts ago.
NO LUCK! The noise remains.
I should (again!) characterize this noise/distortion:
Misc. FYI:
All other aspects of CD playback are good: Tracking, loading, etc. Discs (even ones with bouncy eye patters) all boot up lightning quick, and navigate well.
It's not the spindle, flapper ... anatech -- you need to start diggin' into that SM
I think you were suggesting VCO?
Remember: it was you that ruled out the laser/servo/mechanical systems a few posts ago.
I did just that: listened to tracks WHILE adjusting laser pwr WHILE tweaking that photodiode test resistor drop (50 mV, as suggested in SM) WHILE monitoring eye pattern.
NO LUCK! The noise remains.
I should (again!) characterize this noise/distortion:
- It's sounds "fuzzy" -- it's not hiss -- with some very low-level "crackling".
- It's audible on most discs -- regardless of eye pattern bounce.
- It's only audible when the signal is low-level (quiet passages, fade-ups, fade-downs, etc.). E.g, I can even hear it on a Metallica CD as the concert fades up from quiet.
- Music/audio sounds good and clean at moderate and high levels.
Misc. FYI:
All other aspects of CD playback are good: Tracking, loading, etc. Discs (even ones with bouncy eye patters) all boot up lightning quick, and navigate well.
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Try freezer spray (or an inverted cheapo air duster can) and very sparingly drip the fluid onto suspect parts such as the DRAM chip and then move onto the LSI stuff such as the decoder and so on.
Hi Kate,
Yes, all the servos and mechanics are ruled out as I said before, but they can be slightly off enough to cause this. The VCO locks to the incoming datastream and determines how fast the spindle motor spins. So minor over or underruns of the buffer can cause noise like that, or really big digital noise when it is more serious.
Your eye pattern looks decent, reasonable. That also tells us that most of the mechanics and servos are working properly. I was more concerned that you had dropouts on bad CD's, but the low level noise is more suggestive of a problem in the digital filter or anywhere up to the D/A converter. It could also be getting into the audio as noise on the grounds or supplies to the audio section from the digital or servo amplifiers. Because it is a minor problem (qualitative rather than not running), you might want to see if you can get it triggered on your 'scope from the output and probe various points to see if you can find some signal that lines up with your noise. It might even be coming through the muting section. Check to see if you find a signal on the bases of transistors 6542, 6543, 6544 and 6545. They should be near the output jacks. I would be looking at each servo output and power supply. This is the "not fun" part of electronics servicing. I hope you find something quickly.
So you looked at the clamper (flapper in Philips land), and guide #247? You didn't see any wear at all? You have to clean it off and look on an angle. It should show at least some wear.
Best, Chris
Yes, all the servos and mechanics are ruled out as I said before, but they can be slightly off enough to cause this. The VCO locks to the incoming datastream and determines how fast the spindle motor spins. So minor over or underruns of the buffer can cause noise like that, or really big digital noise when it is more serious.
Your eye pattern looks decent, reasonable. That also tells us that most of the mechanics and servos are working properly. I was more concerned that you had dropouts on bad CD's, but the low level noise is more suggestive of a problem in the digital filter or anywhere up to the D/A converter. It could also be getting into the audio as noise on the grounds or supplies to the audio section from the digital or servo amplifiers. Because it is a minor problem (qualitative rather than not running), you might want to see if you can get it triggered on your 'scope from the output and probe various points to see if you can find some signal that lines up with your noise. It might even be coming through the muting section. Check to see if you find a signal on the bases of transistors 6542, 6543, 6544 and 6545. They should be near the output jacks. I would be looking at each servo output and power supply. This is the "not fun" part of electronics servicing. I hope you find something quickly.
So you looked at the clamper (flapper in Philips land), and guide #247? You didn't see any wear at all? You have to clean it off and look on an angle. It should show at least some wear.
Best, Chris
Erm.......................
So not like Post 47.
Any chance of a recording of the actual Players O/P.
P.
LSB affected????
I noted earlier that the distortion (noise) is audible when music is quiet or low-level. Low-level is handled by LSBs in the DAC.
Could a possible culprit be the TDA1541A (or something that affects it)? Note I mentioned that I did, indeed, swap the 1541A with another , just a few hours ago ... with no change to noise issue.
However, I was just taking some voltage readings on the CD60's 1541A and noted:
Pin 28 (Vdd) = 4.87v (ideal= 5.0)
Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -4.31v (ideal= -5.0)
Pin 15 (Vdd2) = 15.1v (ideal=15.0)
I have good, working CD473 with a similar chipset. It's 1541A values are:
Pin 28 (Vdd) = 4.85v (ideal= 5.0)
Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -5.60v (ideal= -5.0)
Pin 15 (Vdd2) = 14.65v (ideal=15.0)
So ... all you TDA1541 experts and fanboys out there ... what do you think? Is Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -4.31v (ideal= -5.0) problematic?
I noted earlier that the distortion (noise) is audible when music is quiet or low-level. Low-level is handled by LSBs in the DAC.
Could a possible culprit be the TDA1541A (or something that affects it)? Note I mentioned that I did, indeed, swap the 1541A with another , just a few hours ago ... with no change to noise issue.
However, I was just taking some voltage readings on the CD60's 1541A and noted:
Pin 28 (Vdd) = 4.87v (ideal= 5.0)
Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -4.31v (ideal= -5.0)
Pin 15 (Vdd2) = 15.1v (ideal=15.0)
I have good, working CD473 with a similar chipset. It's 1541A values are:
Pin 28 (Vdd) = 4.85v (ideal= 5.0)
Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -5.60v (ideal= -5.0)
Pin 15 (Vdd2) = 14.65v (ideal=15.0)
So ... all you TDA1541 experts and fanboys out there ... what do you think? Is Pin 26 (Vdd1) = -4.31v (ideal= -5.0) problematic?
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Where is the -5v derived from ? The PSU seems to show a -6 volt reg but no -5 that I could just see.
Is there a significant volt drop across the safety resistor feeding the chip ? What is the voltage at the other end of the resistor ?
Its worth checking out but may be unrelated. Dangle a scope on that rail as well.
Is there a significant volt drop across the safety resistor feeding the chip ? What is the voltage at the other end of the resistor ?
Its worth checking out but may be unrelated. Dangle a scope on that rail as well.
-5v and -6v rails are the SAME for the Philips CD60
That PDF schema is a it bit of a hodge-podge.
There is no -6v regulator on the Philips CD60. Let me repeat: THERE IS NO -6v REGULATOR ON THE PHILIPS CD60.
Using a DMM (on ohms), I've partially traced the rail. It seems that the Philips CD60 uses the SAME rail for "-5v" and -6v" requirement.
Here in the US, we have a cliche: " Close enough for Government work."
While I haven't (yet) traced the SOURCE for -5v, I can confirm that between TDA1541A pin 26 and the servo stuff (that require -5v or -6v), there is a small diode that drops around 0.45v. In the PDF schematic, this diode is in PCB location "183". But the schematic shows a JUMPER, not a diode.
Arghhhh!!!
Still tracing ...
The Marantz CD60 schematic is a bit different than what I actually see on my Philips CD60.
That PDF schema is a it bit of a hodge-podge.
There is no -6v regulator on the Philips CD60. Let me repeat: THERE IS NO -6v REGULATOR ON THE PHILIPS CD60.
Using a DMM (on ohms), I've partially traced the rail. It seems that the Philips CD60 uses the SAME rail for "-5v" and -6v" requirement.
Here in the US, we have a cliche: " Close enough for Government work."
While I haven't (yet) traced the SOURCE for -5v, I can confirm that between TDA1541A pin 26 and the servo stuff (that require -5v or -6v), there is a small diode that drops around 0.45v. In the PDF schematic, this diode is in PCB location "183". But the schematic shows a JUMPER, not a diode.
Arghhhh!!!
Still tracing ...
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Hi Katy,
Well, you seem to be at a point where I'd have to have that unit on my bench to make any constructive comments. Sorry, but the questions you are asking require an intimate knowledge of that particular unit.
4.3 V is a bit low, I would try to short the voltage dropping element to see if the higher voltage cures your problem.
-Chris
Well, you seem to be at a point where I'd have to have that unit on my bench to make any constructive comments. Sorry, but the questions you are asking require an intimate knowledge of that particular unit.
4.3 V is a bit low, I would try to short the voltage dropping element to see if the higher voltage cures your problem.
-Chris
Still troubleshooting ...
I changed the 5-ohm "safety R" (next to the TDA1541A's -5v rail) to 0.5-ohm, which brought the rail voltage up to 4.51v.
NO CHANGE.
About the source of -5v ... duh, me!!! ... it's a 7905C in the PSU area, right next to the mains xformer -- where it's supposed to. It's not in the Marantz CD60 ****-up PDF schematics. As noted prev., the Philips CD60 uses -5v for its "-6v" requirements as well.
The low reading on the -5v rails may still explain some of the symptoms my CD60 has shown since the accident. The -6v and -5v rails tie into several components in the servo/laser area:
About that focus trimpot. Recall earlier that regardless of its trim position, I can't change the test-point value (see SM, pg. 14). It's stuck at 134mV. It should be 400mV +/- 40mV.
I changed the 5-ohm "safety R" (next to the TDA1541A's -5v rail) to 0.5-ohm, which brought the rail voltage up to 4.51v.
NO CHANGE.
About the source of -5v ... duh, me!!! ... it's a 7905C in the PSU area, right next to the mains xformer -- where it's supposed to. It's not in the Marantz CD60 ****-up PDF schematics. As noted prev., the Philips CD60 uses -5v for its "-6v" requirements as well.
The low reading on the -5v rails may still explain some of the symptoms my CD60 has shown since the accident. The -6v and -5v rails tie into several components in the servo/laser area:
- 6517/3580 (turntable mtr trans., -5v)
- 3568 (focus offset trimpot, -5v)
- 6503/pin 13 (TDA8809 - radial drive LSI, -6v)
- 6501/pin 13 (TDA8808 -- photodiode LSI, -6v)
About that focus trimpot. Recall earlier that regardless of its trim position, I can't change the test-point value (see SM, pg. 14). It's stuck at 134mV. It should be 400mV +/- 40mV.
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No 'scuses!!
If a sh-t plumber like me could get the beast spinnin' again, all you service techies out there should be able to fix it in your sleep
Ever listen to NPR's Car Talk? Click & Clack repair cars over the phone.
If a sh-t plumber like me could get the beast spinnin' again, all you service techies out there should be able to fix it in your sleep
Could the manual be wrong ? It does happen.
The focus coil is the one that drives the lens up and down and so it would be unreasonable to expect to alter the DC voltage on it when its playing a disc. Why ? Because whatever voltage is present for the disc to play is the voltage needed to precisely position the lens at the correct point from the disc surface. Its all locked and under servo control.
The only thing that would be reasonable would be to set the initial voltage (no disc playing) to get the lens in the right ballpark. Does the setting adjust when you try that ?
If that voltage is significantly different between your two players (the voltage when locked and playing a disc) then that might suggest the turntable height is different between the two players. Don't go altering on a whim though.
Well of course.
Technician:
Now then madam, what seem to be the problem…..
Customer:
Has a whinge...
Technician:
Don't worry madam, its just the newness wearing off.
The focus coil is the one that drives the lens up and down and so it would be unreasonable to expect to alter the DC voltage on it when its playing a disc. Why ? Because whatever voltage is present for the disc to play is the voltage needed to precisely position the lens at the correct point from the disc surface. Its all locked and under servo control.
The only thing that would be reasonable would be to set the initial voltage (no disc playing) to get the lens in the right ballpark. Does the setting adjust when you try that ?
If that voltage is significantly different between your two players (the voltage when locked and playing a disc) then that might suggest the turntable height is different between the two players. Don't go altering on a whim though.
If a sh-t plumber like me could get the beast spinnin' again, all you service techies out there should be able to fix it in your sleep
Well of course.
Technician:
Now then madam, what seem to be the problem…..
Customer:
Has a whinge...
Technician:
Don't worry madam, its just the newness wearing off.
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